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Class E airspace & gliders.

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Class E airspace & gliders.

Old 15th Dec 2016, 11:36
  #61 (permalink)  
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Is it going to take a catastrophic crash in German airspace to open eyes? Probably.
Unfortunately yes, just like with the UAVs , it is not if but when. Sad .
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Old 15th Dec 2016, 13:59
  #62 (permalink)  
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ATCW. I once asked permission from my council to cut down a 10m tree in my garden. It was diseased. The tree was dropping dust and sap all over our garden & the neighbours. You couldn't sit near it or leave the windows open. The council 'permission man' was a 'tree hugger' and refused. We then had as huge storm and a smaller tree in a neighbour's garden was blown over and allowed to be removed. We gained signatures from neighbours to say they had seen our tree sway, and we said the roots were being uplifted. The tree hugger still refused. Well, the tree is by the fence over looking the pavement & road; so we said that if in the next storm there is any damage to personnel or property, he the tree hugger would be held responsible. Our cutting permission arrived the next day.

Well, the airmiss and close-prox reports are like our neighbours letters suggesting a danger. The opinions of commercial pilots and gliders pilots are like prophecies. They are being ignored. If the relevant person who is refusing an open debate on the issue, or to address it professionally, is held accountable for the inevitable loss of life it might spark some reassessment. That official could reside in EASA; there will also be someone in the german hierarchy. Why can ECA not lobby the EU transport/aviation commissioner who oversees EASA? Isn't that one of the roles of ECA, to promote the improving safety environment of the industry and its members? Or is that too simplistic?

If the pilots are not doing something about lobbying EASA I wonder why the AEA is not. They have duty of care to their pax, employees, shareholders and assets.

Last edited by RAT 5; 15th Dec 2016 at 15:05.
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Old 15th Dec 2016, 15:52
  #63 (permalink)  
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RAT5 . On the UAVs issue , ECA is very active and a joint letter with all International organisations ( incl. IFALPA, IFATCA, IATA, etc..) was issued a few weeks ago to EU commission .
https://www.eurocockpit.be/stories/2...ope-s-airspace
GATCO in the UK issue a very strong letter and document to the UK CAA urging them to regulate , as there were 52 Airprox with UAVs in the UK the last 10 months.
VC Cockpit made a special 22 pages brochure in German for ILA 2016 urging for regulation before a collision occur. ( Sonderheft "Drohnen & Luftfahrt"
So on that front we/they really all do something .
Unfortunately Gliders/Class E airspace is not seen as a priority yet most likely because the number of reported incidents is still very small.
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Old 15th Dec 2016, 20:12
  #64 (permalink)  
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Old 15th Dec 2016, 22:17
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Well, the class E problem starts with the fact that class E cannot be avoided in germany. Every airspace above 2500 ft GND or 5000 ft, whichever is lower, and belo FL100, is class E. Lower around airports. And not only glider pilots like it that way, pretty much all private pilots in germany, no matter which type of aircraft they pilot, like that they can freely fly in that airspace without the need to talk to someone. Not to mention the military, they love it too as they mainly fly VFR with their fast jets. And only some of them need a transponder.

Now, the main issue is of course the airspace in the approach and departure path of airports with IFR operation. And that airspace gets evaluated every year and adjusted based on airspace user needs, traffic numbers and incidents. Main group that discusses that is the "Ausschuss Unterer Luftraum" (commitee lower airspace) in which all stakeholders are represented, mainly the DFS, DAeC, VC, airlines and airports. Now, VC represents around 10.000 professional pilots in germany, DAeC represents over 30.000 glider pilots, not to mention ultralight pilots, hang glider pilots, paraglider, parachute jumpers and private pilots flying SEPs, MEP, single turbine etc, helicopters and so on. So the DAeC has quite a huge lobby group, and their representatives in that commitee often fly for major german airlines in their day job, so know both sides of the medal and are very good at counter arguing those that want more restrictive airspace layouts.

And german airlines do training programs on class E as well. It is part of the destination briefing package if there is substantial private aircraft traffic around an airport, the airspace structure is part of the route manual and should be discussed during approach briefing if one of the pilots is unfamiliar with the airport. And of course a good lookout as well as company speed restrictions are encouraged or even enforced. And of course many of the professional pilots started out as a private pilot early on, like myself who started glider flying as a teenager at age 14. Quite a few are still active private pilots and do provide valuable information to their colleagues.

Yes, airprox events do happen, however the numbers are, despite rising traffic levels, very small. Midair collisions happen even less often and mostly between private pilots close to uncontrolled fields, although the military made a few a while back until they changed their training.
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Old 17th Dec 2016, 10:42
  #66 (permalink)  
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Denti :
Thanks for your detailed answers .I understand the demands and arbitration / compromise made, we do the same in France. There too the Military is now far better than it used to be, Flight Info(FIS) was decentralized to many Approaches ( exactly the opposite of what Germany wants to do btw ) and this works very well. Which is for me one of the key to airspace sharing .
When you have a good FIS ( like in Germany and France those last years) people will use it , and safety will drastically improve. I myself now always contact / listen to FIS when above 1500 ft. But most of my Gliders colleagues still don't , in both countries.
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