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Flying a Standard Arrival With No Radial

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Flying a Standard Arrival With No Radial

Old 19th Feb 2016, 16:39
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Flying a Standard Arrival With No Radial

If, in an airliner, one wanted to fly an non-RNAV arrival that was point to point - for example the CDF 1A in to EGFF (Cardiff) as per this approach chart...



(Yes - I know it a little out of date)

.... how would you fly that inbound (186) track? From RETSI-AMRAL-RILES-DOBEM to ensure you stayed on the correct course?

Cheers
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Old 19th Feb 2016, 21:20
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I think N862 is an RNAV 5 route, implying that no ground-based aids are required.

So, you would have to have a GPS/FMS installation, certified for RNAV 5, and either load the waypoints one at a time or load the arrival from the database if there was one.

N862 defines the route from NOKIN to DOBEM. After that you would have to track inbound to the CDF NDB on the 211 QDM.

So, to answer your question, it is not a 'non-RNAV arrival' but a combination of an RNAV airway and a leg defined by an NDB.

(Not very clearly depicted as such on the plate.)

Last edited by eckhard; 20th Feb 2016 at 12:59.
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Old 19th Feb 2016, 22:52
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You cannot fly a STAR like that without some form of IFR approved RNAV system.

If your RNAV had failed, you would ask for radar vectors, or directt BCN direct CDF.


MJ
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Old 20th Feb 2016, 11:30
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Thanks very much indeed to you both. I thought this might be the case - but the fact that it gives radials and distances from a VOR for each of these points made me think that you either 'point-to-point' or could fly a track/DR and check the position with the VOR at each point.

Thanks again
CE
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Old 20th Feb 2016, 15:13
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I believe that this information is included because it is still theoretically possible (if not very practical) to use old RNAV equipment such as the King KNS80 for this purpose.

In case you are not old enough to remember them, they relied on the operator to manually input each waypoint in the form of radial and distance from a VOR, in order to navigate directly.


MJ
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Old 20th Feb 2016, 20:39
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Ahh - ok, yes that does explain why they are there! Thanks very much!
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Old 21st Feb 2016, 00:00
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The chart is shown as expired. It is also obsolete. The procedure is a bit easier now, but requires some skillful manipulation of both VOR and NDB. Obviously, with RNAV and the procedure in the database, it becomes much easier to accomplish.
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Old 21st Feb 2016, 20:35
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YOu can use a CRP-5 (or preferred variant) to do point to point nav if you can reference both points to a radial and dme from the same radio aid. It tends to work fairly well but I would challenge anyone (including myself) to actually do it in an airliner. I would personally come apart when trying to find said CRP-5.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 15:34
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You don't need a CRP-5, just an RMI (conventional or Full/Rose mode EHSI/ND) and a pencil - classic point-to-point although admittedly, more challenging at 250Kts

Last edited by Reverserbucket; 26th Feb 2016 at 14:07.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 18:59
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It's not an RNAV arrival but you need the kit, a [email protected] won't do. At least in a real aeroplane anyway.


RNAV 5 operations are based on the use of RNAV equipment which automatically determines the aircraft position in the horizontal plane using input from one sensor or a combination of the following types of position sensors, together with the means to establish and follow a desired path:
1) VOR/DME;
2) DME/DME;
3) INS or IRS; and
4) GNSS.
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Old 26th Feb 2016, 14:14
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FRK said:

"It's not an RNAV arrival but you need the kit, a [email protected] won't do. At least in a real aeroplane anyway."

I thought that CRP-5 comment was a bit tongue in cheek but yes, although it would be fiddly, even in a real aeroplane, you could fly the KARNO to DOBEM leg using Point-to-Point. I would prefer not to but if push came to shove
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