Pan Mayday
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As far as I am concerned, it is my choice. If PAN doesn't give me what I want, I'll shout Mayday. An engine failure in a twin is an inconvenience rather than a dire emergency, but you will have to land at the "nearest suitable" (which us not necessarily the closest). What you are doing with your call is to let then know of your plight, reserve tracks, levels and resources due to your problem; things you are going to take disregard less of what ATC say. My experience of ATC in Europe is such that they are extremely accommodating to any aircraft with even minor faults that declaring any emergency status is pointless. They will give you want you need anyway. With one exception - LHR. To a diverting aircraft low on fuel "LHR are only diverting accepting aircraft with an emergency. Do you have an emergency?" "Not yet, but if you keep me on this heading I will be." Five minutes later "Mayday, mayday..."
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Here is some guidance:
http://www.b737mrg.net/downloads/b73...pan-mayday.pdf
Not a bad list, but...
Engine failure to me will always be a mayday, at least initially... unless maybe it's a controlled shutdown at altitude.
http://www.b737mrg.net/downloads/b73...pan-mayday.pdf
Not a bad list, but...
Engine failure to me will always be a mayday, at least initially... unless maybe it's a controlled shutdown at altitude.
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Three calls of "pan-pan" in radiotelephone communications, is used to signify that there is an urgency on board but that, for the time being at least, there is no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself. This is referred to as a state of urgency.
Three calls of "Mayday" means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself.
Thus "pan-pan" informs potential rescuers (including emergency services and other craft in the area) that a safety problem exists whereas "Mayday" will call upon them to drop all other activities and immediately initiate a rescue attempt.
Any failure of multiple systems rendering the aircraft in a single system state should thus be considered a potential Mayday
Three calls of "Mayday" means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself.
Thus "pan-pan" informs potential rescuers (including emergency services and other craft in the area) that a safety problem exists whereas "Mayday" will call upon them to drop all other activities and immediately initiate a rescue attempt.
Any failure of multiple systems rendering the aircraft in a single system state should thus be considered a potential Mayday
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Mayday. You may as well get yourself some priority and attention. It is unlikely that there will be another one in the same airspace so no one else is going to be put into danger.
As most here I have had many problems but never felt they required a Mayday. Four engines do help of course.
As most here I have had many problems but never felt they required a Mayday. Four engines do help of course.
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Pan Pan or Mayday depending on the circumstances. By some poster's logic pilots of single engine aircraft should include Mayday in their taxi call. The definitions are in Annex (10?) to the Chicago Convention.
The radiotelephone distress signal to indicate grave and/or imminent danger requiring immediate assistance is
MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY.
The radiotelephone urgency signal to indicate a condition concerning the safety of an aircraft, vehicle or of some person on board which does not require immediate assistance is
PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN.
To anyone with a grasp of English either might be appropriate depending on the nature of the failure and performance.
Both are acceptable means of declaring an emergency. And, contrary to what many will tell you, all ICAO countries have a similar radio licence syllabus and Pan/Mayday calls are an easy mark, right after the phonetic alphabet! Ask any Air Trafficker from Lagos to Tokyo. Even my wife knows that after doing a day boating course.
HOWEVER; a generation of simulator instructors seem to have succumbed to the view that perceived conservatism equals increased safety. Perhaps some were indoctrinated by previous companies SOPs, or by that habit in aviation of adding margins to margins, or simply by peers strong opinions.
Whatever the cause, just like any language changes over the years, so has aviation language. Particularly in Asian countries; when you are doing a check Mayday has become the default call for engine fail on a twin. You won't get a 5 if you use PAN.
I don't like to see aviation phraseology diminished by 'ghost' procedures but this is the reality. The PAN call is slowly being eroded out of use.
The radiotelephone distress signal to indicate grave and/or imminent danger requiring immediate assistance is
MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY.
The radiotelephone urgency signal to indicate a condition concerning the safety of an aircraft, vehicle or of some person on board which does not require immediate assistance is
PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN.
To anyone with a grasp of English either might be appropriate depending on the nature of the failure and performance.
Both are acceptable means of declaring an emergency. And, contrary to what many will tell you, all ICAO countries have a similar radio licence syllabus and Pan/Mayday calls are an easy mark, right after the phonetic alphabet! Ask any Air Trafficker from Lagos to Tokyo. Even my wife knows that after doing a day boating course.
HOWEVER; a generation of simulator instructors seem to have succumbed to the view that perceived conservatism equals increased safety. Perhaps some were indoctrinated by previous companies SOPs, or by that habit in aviation of adding margins to margins, or simply by peers strong opinions.
Whatever the cause, just like any language changes over the years, so has aviation language. Particularly in Asian countries; when you are doing a check Mayday has become the default call for engine fail on a twin. You won't get a 5 if you use PAN.
I don't like to see aviation phraseology diminished by 'ghost' procedures but this is the reality. The PAN call is slowly being eroded out of use.
Last edited by HPSOV L; 14th Dec 2014 at 15:41. Reason: Clarity
I know how I would 'start'!
To anyone with a grasp of English either might be appropriate depending on the nature of the failure and performance.
m'aidez = help me!
en panne = broken/failed/not functioning. "Houston, ahhh - We have a problem!"
There are, of course, single-engine failures, and single-engine failures.
An uncontained failure that sprays shrapnel through the wing and cabin and lights up the EICAS like a Christmas tree is a Mayday, even with 4 engines (Qantas A380).
Definitely commander's call. And as the saying goes - if there is doubt, there is no doubt.
Last edited by pattern_is_full; 14th Dec 2014 at 16:50.
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Actually the Qantas 380 Captain out of SIN used a PAN call. Later stating "at no time did I feel our lives were in danger".
Can we agree that whatever our opinions are, there is no right or wrong answer?
Can we agree that whatever our opinions are, there is no right or wrong answer?
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You can't "declare" a pan - there is no such thing. A pan call is just an urgent message, nothing more.
You CAN, however, declare an emergency, using mayday.
Should you declare an emergency with an engine failure?
Answer, a couple of reasons to declare an emergency at all:
- When you can't adhere to the clearances given by air traffic control
- When you immediately need to do something different that what you were cleared.
E.g. emergency descent. You call mayday to let the air traffic controller know, that you will be descending no matter what. He will the be able to assist your decent by getting other traffic out of your way (hopefully).
Same for an engine failure during departure. Most likely you will fly a contingency procedure instead of your originally cleared SID. A mayday call, will let the controller know that he needs to keep other traffic clear of your way. Good communication will ease the work of the controller (see Thomson on youtube for a well executed example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE).
Calling pan will not give you anything at all. Pan is just a message that takes priority over other radio calls. You don't get any priority over other traffic, and it doesn't allow you to deviate from your present clearance.
Since the misunderstanding about what a pan call really is and means, is so ingrained, calling "pan" and anything the controllers will interpret as an emergency will give you the same privileges as calling mayday - still doesn't make it correct.
You CAN, however, declare an emergency, using mayday.
Should you declare an emergency with an engine failure?
Answer, a couple of reasons to declare an emergency at all:
- When you can't adhere to the clearances given by air traffic control
- When you immediately need to do something different that what you were cleared.
E.g. emergency descent. You call mayday to let the air traffic controller know, that you will be descending no matter what. He will the be able to assist your decent by getting other traffic out of your way (hopefully).
Same for an engine failure during departure. Most likely you will fly a contingency procedure instead of your originally cleared SID. A mayday call, will let the controller know that he needs to keep other traffic clear of your way. Good communication will ease the work of the controller (see Thomson on youtube for a well executed example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE).
Calling pan will not give you anything at all. Pan is just a message that takes priority over other radio calls. You don't get any priority over other traffic, and it doesn't allow you to deviate from your present clearance.
Since the misunderstanding about what a pan call really is and means, is so ingrained, calling "pan" and anything the controllers will interpret as an emergency will give you the same privileges as calling mayday - still doesn't make it correct.
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HPSOV L:
But you are providing an example of a quad loosing an engine, not a twin.
In the example you provide multiple systems of each type remain functioning.
In the twin scenario, 50% of some systems are gone, a single source remains, hence the MayDay is warranted whereas in the case of a quad a simple PAN will suffice
Actually the Qantas 380 Captain out of SIN used a PAN call. Later stating "at no time did I feel our lives were in danger".
In the example you provide multiple systems of each type remain functioning.
In the twin scenario, 50% of some systems are gone, a single source remains, hence the MayDay is warranted whereas in the case of a quad a simple PAN will suffice
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Sky job:
Sorry, should have made it clear I was responding to a previous post. Relevant as it challenges preconceptions. Also could I suggest an ETOPs twin on one engine has as much redundancy as, say, a Pilatus PC12. This is not to deny it is a serious situation, however you can't say it's mandatory to make a MAYDAY call. That is just opinion.
Cosmo:
I think you're a bit off with your understanding of phraseology. Read the ICAO annex.
Sorry, should have made it clear I was responding to a previous post. Relevant as it challenges preconceptions. Also could I suggest an ETOPs twin on one engine has as much redundancy as, say, a Pilatus PC12. This is not to deny it is a serious situation, however you can't say it's mandatory to make a MAYDAY call. That is just opinion.
Cosmo:
I think you're a bit off with your understanding of phraseology. Read the ICAO annex.
Last edited by HPSOV L; 14th Dec 2014 at 18:15.
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No I am not. And I would recommend using official sources, like ICAO Annex 10 vol 2, for definitions rather that wikipedia (Skyjob).
If you are not in distress you are not allowed to deviate from your clearance.
5.3.1.2
The radiotelephony distress signal MAYDAY and the radiotelephony urgency signal PAN PAN shall be used at the commencement of the first distress and urgency communication respectively.
The radiotelephony distress signal MAYDAY and the radiotelephony urgency signal PAN PAN shall be used at the commencement of the first distress and urgency communication respectively.