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Logbook question, logging PICUS/P2 hours

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Logbook question, logging PICUS/P2 hours

Old 11th Feb 2014, 17:32
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Arrow Logbook question, logging PICUS/P2 hours

Hi, I have been commercial flying for 5 years now, and have an ATPL. When it's the skippers sector I log P2 and my sector PICUS, which is all correct and keeps the CAA happy. I have been told I do not need to do this post ATPL issue as P2 time can just be divided by 2, and I can just log all my time as P2 as many electronic logbook software programs do. My questions are, where in LASORS/CAP804 does it say this? And does this mean if I start an electronic logbook do I need to divide P2 by 2 and manually enter PICUS, or do I leave the PICUS section blank and leave it all as P2? But then what happens if you ever decide to apply for another job do they ask for P2/PICUS split therefore you have to redo your logbook? I only ask this as I'm looking to convert to an electronic logbook which calculates everything as P2, and if the outcome of this is I need to manually enter PICUS I may as well stick to the pen logbook.

Many thanks, I have tried LASORS.
Captain Spam Can is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2014, 20:12
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Join Date: May 2008
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LASORS is replaced by CAP 804, but for me there's no reason not to continue as you have been.

My electronic log book downloads the info straight from my airline's server, and logs is appropriately as P2 or PICUS depending on who's leg it was.

I guess you could just average it out if you're lazy, but there's really no time saved as with an electronic logbook it's a click of a button and the whole logbook is done.
RTN11 is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2014, 20:28
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PICUS is pretty meaningless after you have your ATPL issued anyway.

It was only ever invented so that airline cadets could get their PIC time up for ATPL issue.

Employers aren't interested in it.

Most upgrades hack it out of there log books so there running totals only show proper PIC time which is what you are always asked for in job applications.

I got my PIC time as a flying instructor so only have my PPL/CPL and IR test passes logged as PICUS. All my FO time was logged as co-pilot.

In theory you not even meant to log it unless there is a method specified in your part D and the company is approved. The UK has always pretty much ignored this issue and even the fact your meant to get every sector signed for by the PIC. Other European authority's its a right bloody faff anyone logging it.
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Old 11th Feb 2014, 20:49
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PICUS is pretty meaningless after you have your ATPL issued anyway.

It was only ever invented so that airline cadets could get their PIC time up for ATPL issue.
Hadn't really taken that on board to be honest, I also got my PIC time by instructing, but when I joined the airline just logged PICUS the same was everyone else was, and as the legal text suggests is acceptable.

Will still continue the split post-ATPL though, as it gives something to look back on and remember who was flying what, and as I said the electronic logbook does it for me anyway.
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Old 11th Feb 2014, 22:47
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What is legal to log, and what airlines want to see on a resume, are 2 distinctly different things. Certainly log time per your local regulations. HOWEVER, be prepared to break out "real" PIC time where you WERE the PIC/Captain.
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Old 11th Feb 2014, 23:14
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I fly in the UK and our OM let's us FOs log PICUS under a couple of conditions when PF. I logged PICUS until I had logged 150h of it and then stopped, as only 150h of it can be counted towards ATPL issue. I (as MJ suggested) have it hacked into a seperate column in the logbook.

As I side note, I have just had a look through CAP804 and the restriction for the max 150 PICUS hours seems to have changed.

LASORS used to say:

(i) 250 hours Pilot-in-Command (PIC) of
Aeroplanes, can include (ii);

(ii) 150 hours (max) Co-Pilot performing under
the supervision of the Pilot-in-Command
the duties and functions of a
Pilot-in-Command (PIC/US).
CAP 804 now says:

(2) (i) 500 hours as PIC under supervision; or
(ii) 250 hours as PIC; or
(iii) 250 hours, including at least 70 hours as PIC, and the remaining as PIC
under supervision;
So at least I can still fulfill option (iii)!
OhNoCB is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2014, 23:22
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Thanks for the info guys, out of interest RTN11 what logbook software do you use? i tried Chock2Chock which downloads straight from my employers 'big orange server' at a click of a button and is fantastic but only gives me P2. Ive looked at log10pro but you still manually enter the flight times which is what im trying to get away from.....call me lazy.
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Old 12th Feb 2014, 09:07
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I use Mcc pilot log, which downloads who was flying, and you can set it to log p2 or PICUS as appropriate. It then gives a separate column for PIC and PICUS, so no problems if you need to differentiate for a job or licence application.
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Old 12th Feb 2014, 23:02
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thanks RTN11 :-)
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Old 13th Feb 2014, 02:09
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One application I had to fill out for a job in the far east required real P1, PICUS and P2 split up for aircraft under 20t. aircraft between 20t and 50t and aircraft over 50t! Electronic log books were not to be seen in my day but it paid to sit down and break down one's hours, date it and then photocopy it a couple of times, all that was then required was an easy update every year or so. Always keep a copy of whatever experience you submit with a CV.
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Old 13th Feb 2014, 09:25
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My personal opinion, post ATPL no need to log anymore than PIC/Co-pilot and total time.
172_driver is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2014, 10:47
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Intruder what is legal to be logged even under EASA changes from country to country.

UK pretty much everyone logs PICUS on their sector most don't get the PIC to sign it and everyone doesn't bat an eye lid apart from a few Captains who are disgusted with the practise.

If you have a Swedish license they can only log it as part of a command course and they can only go through that if they are going into the LHS.

In fact I know a few Swedish pilots who transferred to the UK while working over there because the fees and admin is pretty horrible in Sweden upgraded there CPL to ATPL then when they go a job back home again they had months and months of hassle trying to convert there licenses back without PIC time on type. Some of them gave up in the end and went back to being CPL's.
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Old 13th Feb 2014, 15:50
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Yep! Just shows you how unified the EU is -- NOT!

BTW, will an independent Scotland join the EU?
Intruder is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2014, 17:59
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lord only knows mate.

I wouldn't be surprised if the other members block it.

A few other countries have problem regions and won't want to give them any ideas.
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Old 13th Feb 2014, 23:26
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safety pilot

Slight off topic. In easa land is it possible for one to log safety pilot hours? And does one need to be rated on that type to be able to log sp hours?
Lakhan is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2014, 00:48
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Thats a new easa thing. Its only if you being safety pilot in a multicrew typed aircraft when someone is being lined trained. It doesn`t apply to single pilot aircraft.

Even if you do get to log something its still not worth getting a numb arse getting bored pooless sitting on a jump seat.
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 00:53
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And does one need to be rated on that type to be able to log sp hours?
Not qualified to fly the aircraft, but wanting to Log the time
Level Attitude is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2014, 20:57
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fantastic repy to this thread thanks, i was wondering if MCC pilot log automatically records registrations from the airline server or do you have to note them and manually insert?
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Old 15th Feb 2014, 12:31
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All automatic. Great bit of software, can't recommend it or the company highly enough, very responsive to suggestions and help desk is very swift.
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