View Poll Results: Should a countries regulator make it compulsory for airline to do CRM training?
Yes and they should provide the syllabus too.
24
68.57%
Yes but the airlines should decide what to cover.
4
11.43%
No but it should be recommended
3
8.57%
No the airlines are doing a good enough job as it is
4
11.43%
Voters: 35. This poll is closed
Compulsory CRM training
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Compulsory CRM training
The Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority has just made it a requrement that all airlines train their staff in CRM
Should other Countries do the same or is CRM training something best left up to the airlines?
Should other Countries do the same or is CRM training something best left up to the airlines?
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: MIRSI hold - give or take...
Age: 52
Posts: 568
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CRM Training
Training is fine, but forcing perople to do something has never increased efficiency. It's a question of company culture. Either you have it
or you don't 
...
Brgds,
Empty
Training is fine, but forcing perople to do something has never increased efficiency. It's a question of company culture. Either you have it
or you don't ...Brgds,
Empty
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alba sor
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Empty Cruise, while what you say is true, it is at least trying to do something about it by requiring CRM. The UK has had it for years, likewise now JAR. Australia is trying to catch up and with this and the impending overall review of the regulations, is very much a step forward.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: MIRSI hold - give or take...
Age: 52
Posts: 568
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Meeb,
I absolutely agree Ya gotta start somewhere. Turning a company culture around is like flying a supertanker. I know, presently trying to make the bow swing in just a regional 
.
But cheer up - it gets easier over the years
Brgds,
Empty
I absolutely agree
Ya gotta start somewhere. Turning a company culture around is like flying a supertanker. I know, presently trying to make the bow swing in just a regional .But cheer up - it gets easier over the years
Brgds,
Empty
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: KEGE
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well CRM is a top down effect. If the CEO/President doesn’t listen to the DO is the Director of Ops going to listen to the CP? And if the Chief Pilot is not listened to, will he listen to the LPs? Then will the line pilots listen to the flight attendants, and all of a sudden, no body is cooperating with anybody else. CRM is absolutely tied to company culture, but I guess everybody agrees with that. Good luck trying to change company culture. I really thought Empty's quote was right on, “Either you have it or you don't ...”
While I'm editing for spelling, good point Tiny... you don't and shouldn't let management negatively influence your flying. However just as the Captain sets the tone on the flight deck so does the DO set the tone in the flight department, there will of course be those individuals who are stronger then the corporate culture, but for the main part people do what people see.
While I'm editing for spelling, good point Tiny... you don't and shouldn't let management negatively influence your flying. However just as the Captain sets the tone on the flight deck so does the DO set the tone in the flight department, there will of course be those individuals who are stronger then the corporate culture, but for the main part people do what people see.
Last edited by '%MAC'; 16th May 2002 at 23:42.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN,USA.
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CRM is a reflection of the flying culture not the corporate culture. I worked for an airline with one of the most archaic management structures out there, yet the Flight Ops group were on the leading edge of developing and using CRM. Certainly it helps if the people back at base are onboard, but just because you work for a bunch of ****heads doesn't mean that you have to fly like them.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: by the river
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CRM
Are you talking about "Contact Relationship Management" or as most people still incorrectly insist in calling it 'Customer Relationship Management' ?
If so %Mac's comments are so absolutely correct, if it doesn't come down the line ... why would it go back up.
CRM (as defined above) is just a new and modern buzz word for - customer service ... good service ... and plain old common sense (that of course is not at all common, and becoming rarer day by day).
---------------------------------------
If you don't listen to what they want - you'll never know & end up as ships passing in the night.
A complaint is probably your last chance to turn it all around and do what is subliminally being asked - help me to not have to walk away disgruntled.
If so %Mac's comments are so absolutely correct, if it doesn't come down the line ... why would it go back up.
CRM (as defined above) is just a new and modern buzz word for - customer service ... good service ... and plain old common sense (that of course is not at all common, and becoming rarer day by day).
---------------------------------------
If you don't listen to what they want - you'll never know & end up as ships passing in the night.
A complaint is probably your last chance to turn it all around and do what is subliminally being asked - help me to not have to walk away disgruntled.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN,USA.
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crew Resource Management ( used to be cockpit but became PC ) In a nutshell,getting the crew to work togethere as a team to bring all available physical and intellectual resources together to solve problems. Can't imagine any Government department getting involved in customer service - especially one related to aviation.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: by the river
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Tiny
Your answer implies that the 2 people up front - don't work together ! Strange though - if they really don't work together then perhaps one of them is totally unnecessary - like the old engineer, who's days were up when the 2 cabin crew was invented.
I wonder if management will ever realise that - if - just if one of the drivers is enough - there is a vast saving about to lurk ?
Only kidding - well sort of - I have heard that the rules and roles in various companies for the 2 drivers vary - quite a bit. How bad are the extreams. ??? Just for the uninitiated SLF's
See your logic about governments - highly unlikely in their case to do anything that improves efficiency - or even go near it.
I wonder if management will ever realise that - if - just if one of the drivers is enough - there is a vast saving about to lurk ?
Only kidding - well sort of - I have heard that the rules and roles in various companies for the 2 drivers vary - quite a bit. How bad are the extreams. ??? Just for the uninitiated SLF's
See your logic about governments - highly unlikely in their case to do anything that improves efficiency - or even go near it.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN,USA.
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately, there were accidents and incidents in the past where that was the case, and thus became a motivation for CRM techniques. I'm a maintenance man, so I'll leave the niceties of the how and why of CRM to a PPrune pilot type.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: KEGE
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The two major accidents that precipitated the formal concept of CRM were Eastern 401 in the Everglades, and United 173 in Portland. While the buzzword CRM is relatively new, early ‘80s, the concept has been in use since people have been flying together. A really good example of CRM occurs in the film 2001 A Space Odyssey. In the particular scene, HAL explains to Dave that the AE-35 unit will go 100% failure in 72 hours. Dave’s response is ‘okay, I suppose we’ll have to bring it in, but first I want to go over this with Frank (the other crewmember) and mission control.’ They then bring in the unit to trouble shoot, and discuss the problems with HAL. That is CRM, involving the other crewmember(s) to solve a problem. Oh, and the film was introduced in ’68 (I think), long before either aircraft accident. Some old timer told me, ‘if it’s new it’s probably not very good, and if it’s good, it’s probably not new.’ (Take that with a grain of salt, but you see the correlation.)
The problem with CRM is that the people that really get into it and think, oh wow this is great, generally aren’t the people that need CRM. The people who think it’s just a bunch of psycho-babble are generally the people that need it. But how do you make a horse, that doesn’t think it is thirsty, drink?
As far as a definition of CRM, Tinyrice’s is as good as any I’ve seen.
The problem with CRM is that the people that really get into it and think, oh wow this is great, generally aren’t the people that need CRM. The people who think it’s just a bunch of psycho-babble are generally the people that need it. But how do you make a horse, that doesn’t think it is thirsty, drink?
As far as a definition of CRM, Tinyrice’s is as good as any I’ve seen.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CRM...a complete waste of time, IMHO. Review of accidents and their causes...absolutely.
The "young turks" think they know the lot....sad to say, many don't....and may never will.
The "young turks" think they know the lot....sad to say, many don't....and may never will.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A- Intersting to note %MAC's comment, that those individuals who think it's a waste of time are generally the ones who need it most.
Reviewing accidents is well and good, and a good source of discussion, however, sitting here with 20/20 hindsight after any event means that this exercise is limited in it's use. Errors are easily spotted when the final consequencies are already known!
Surely life is too short for each of us individually to make the same errors that others have made previously. The whole point of CRM is to ensure that communication within the team is effective to help prevent the error chain that leads to a more serious incident occuring.
Reviewing accidents is well and good, and a good source of discussion, however, sitting here with 20/20 hindsight after any event means that this exercise is limited in it's use. Errors are easily spotted when the final consequencies are already known!
Surely life is too short for each of us individually to make the same errors that others have made previously. The whole point of CRM is to ensure that communication within the team is effective to help prevent the error chain that leads to a more serious incident occuring.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: by the river
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said GQ
The coordinated team work and shared procedures in a 2 man cockpit make a lot of sense to me. Reading the accident reports usually highlights what they didn't do (and should have done) - and unfortunately didn't get away with it.
Unfortunately it also highlights sometime that a Capt. is a Capt. and even when he is SNAFUing badly, the F/O hasn't the gall, balls, guts or permission to get it right.
Son-in-law is an F/O, and the other day demanded that the Capt. be exchanged for the 3rd & 4th of the days 4 legs. Was done and then of course the diciplinary ... Thank goodness that the cockpit tape was perfect evidence. He was right - but what a way to have to prove it and nearly getting killed and then fired in the process. There has to be a better way - perhaps just computers....
Unfortunately it also highlights sometime that a Capt. is a Capt. and even when he is SNAFUing badly, the F/O hasn't the gall, balls, guts or permission to get it right.
Son-in-law is an F/O, and the other day demanded that the Capt. be exchanged for the 3rd & 4th of the days 4 legs. Was done and then of course the diciplinary ... Thank goodness that the cockpit tape was perfect evidence. He was right - but what a way to have to prove it and nearly getting killed and then fired in the process. There has to be a better way - perhaps just computers....
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tHUDddd,
Yes indeed, CRM is a waste of time. Having trained many young guys (250 hrs) in heavy jets from initial sim through line training...I have noticed that after they reach 1500 hrs or so, have attended CRM for a few years, they then think that they "know it all... have seen everything" and many are then questioning the Commander at every turn, and occasionally running to the Chief Pilot for no good reason. In the airlines that I have worked for, this business was stopped in its tracks. CRM should be used to review accidents/incidents and for general discussion only, and not nonsensical parlor games.
Of course, the "young" guys will not agree, but then again they have not been around long enough to know better. Not their fault really, and a few will never learn.
Then, when I get these guys in the sim, turn the screws a bit so that they have to actually think for a change (gosh, what a novel idea), many come unglued, performance is quite poor, because they can only recite the book from memory, not take decisive action.
Better to use the CRM time for more sim training (LOFT), and that is precisely what out company will be doing. Costs a little more, but MUCH better results in the long run.
Yes indeed, CRM is a waste of time. Having trained many young guys (250 hrs) in heavy jets from initial sim through line training...I have noticed that after they reach 1500 hrs or so, have attended CRM for a few years, they then think that they "know it all... have seen everything" and many are then questioning the Commander at every turn, and occasionally running to the Chief Pilot for no good reason. In the airlines that I have worked for, this business was stopped in its tracks. CRM should be used to review accidents/incidents and for general discussion only, and not nonsensical parlor games.
Of course, the "young" guys will not agree, but then again they have not been around long enough to know better. Not their fault really, and a few will never learn.
Then, when I get these guys in the sim, turn the screws a bit so that they have to actually think for a change (gosh, what a novel idea), many come unglued, performance is quite poor, because they can only recite the book from memory, not take decisive action.
Better to use the CRM time for more sim training (LOFT), and that is precisely what out company will be doing. Costs a little more, but MUCH better results in the long run.
