Logging PIC on a multi-crew flight (U.S.A.)
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Logging PIC on a multi-crew flight (U.S.A.)
Hi again folks,
On a flight with 2 captains and 2 fo's, can both captains log PIC time for the entire flight? can I, as the junior captain log PIC for the entire flight? or can I only log PIC the time I am sitting at the controls?
I am trying to do my US logbook and in the country where I fly (Colombia) the regulation allows you to log the entire flight as PIC, whether or not you're the controls i.e. sleeping, etc.
Thanks,
On a flight with 2 captains and 2 fo's, can both captains log PIC time for the entire flight? can I, as the junior captain log PIC for the entire flight? or can I only log PIC the time I am sitting at the controls?
I am trying to do my US logbook and in the country where I fly (Colombia) the regulation allows you to log the entire flight as PIC, whether or not you're the controls i.e. sleeping, etc.
Thanks,
61.51 says you can log PIC time while you are acting as the PIC of a multi pilot crew. So does your company say you are the PIC while the senior PIC is sleeping?
It also says you can log PIC if you are the handling pilot if you are rated for that aircraft. Which means if your company doesn't make you the PIC while the other PIC is sleeping and the other FO is flying you can't log the time.
It also says you can log PIC if you are the handling pilot if you are rated for that aircraft. Which means if your company doesn't make you the PIC while the other PIC is sleeping and the other FO is flying you can't log the time.
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My interpretation (warning, not an expert)
If you're flying a Colombian airplane using a Colombian certificate, I'd say log it using the Colombian regs.
If you're interested in logging stuff for the FAA (ATP requirements etc.) I'd start a new column. An electronic logbook makes that easy.
If you're flying a Colombian airplane using a Colombian certificate, I'd say log it using the Colombian regs.
If you're interested in logging stuff for the FAA (ATP requirements etc.) I'd start a new column. An electronic logbook makes that easy.
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There is only ONE PIC on an airplane. He is the one who signs the dispatch release (Part 121) and logbook.
FAA regs allow you to log PIC time when you are the PIC OR when you are manipulating the controls. In general, though, when airlines ask for your PIC time, they ONLY want that time when you are the actual PIC, not just the pilot flying (PF). So, if you are looking for an airline job, and you show an excess of logged PIC time for your circumstances, you may have a hard time explaining...
Personally, I ONLY log PIC time when I am actually the PIC, NOT when I am a relief pilot and PF. You may want to develop a logbook spreadsheet that details all the different types of pilot time you might want to log...
FAA regs allow you to log PIC time when you are the PIC OR when you are manipulating the controls. In general, though, when airlines ask for your PIC time, they ONLY want that time when you are the actual PIC, not just the pilot flying (PF). So, if you are looking for an airline job, and you show an excess of logged PIC time for your circumstances, you may have a hard time explaining...
Personally, I ONLY log PIC time when I am actually the PIC, NOT when I am a relief pilot and PF. You may want to develop a logbook spreadsheet that details all the different types of pilot time you might want to log...
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All Depends
I found this... It might help clear up some things for everyone; even myself!! LOL!
Acting as PIC and Logging PIC TimeExplained
The "golden key" tounderstanding the rules of logging PIC is to always keep in mind hat the FAAtreats "acting as pilot in command" and "logging pilot incommand time" under FAR 61.51 as completely different concepts.It's the difference between (1) having final authority and responsibility forthe operation and safety of a flight (commonly referred to as "acting asPIC") and (2) writing numbers in columns on a piece of paper while sittingat a desk with a beer in your hand. They never mean the same thing andthey have completely different rules. A pilot can be responsible for a flightand not be permitted to write those numbers down. A pilot can betechnically nothing but a passenger in the FAA's eyes and be permitted to writetime in that PIC column. In some circumstances, two pilots may sit at that deskand write numbers in their logbooks, even though, quite obviously, only one canbear the ultimate responsibility for a flight.
The known universe of rules for loggingto show qualification for certificates, ratings and currency is contained inFAR 61.51. Unless 61.51 specifically directs you to it, answering a loggingquestion by including the word "acting" or pointing to any other FARis always a mistake. This is a simplified version of the rules of Part61 PIC logging as they have been written in the FAR and repeatedly andconsistently interpreted by the FAA Legal Counsel since at least 1980. It'slimited to student, recreational, private, and commercial pilots. CFIs and ATPscan fend for themselves. If they don't know the rules, tough.
Rule 1. If you are a recreational,private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the solemanipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. [61.51(e)(1)(i)]"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating isnecessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilotcertificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements forhigh performance, complex, or tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Notflight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions. Notethat the rule is different for sport pilots who have endorsed"privileges" for aircraft in their logbooks instead of ratings ontheir pilot certificates.
Rule 2. If you are a student,recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are theonly person in the aircraft. [61.51(e)(1)(ii) and 61.51(e)(4)] This means thateven without category and class ratings, you may log PIC time if you are solo.In addition to the obvious (student solo), it also means, for example, that ifyou are rated ASEL and solo in an AMEL or ASES, you may log the time as PIC.
Rule 3. If you are a private orcommercial pilot, you may log as PIC any time you are acting as PIC (in charge)of a flight on which more than one pilot is required [61.51(e)(1)(iii)] Morethan one pilot may be required because the aircraft is not certified forsingle-pilot operations. But more common for us, it covers simulated instrumentflight where a second "safety pilot" is required by the regulationswhile the "manipulator" is under the hood. [91.109(b)] If the twopilots agree that the safety pilot is acting as PIC, the safety pilot can logthe time as PIC. An important, but often misunderstood part of this rule isthat in order to act as PIC in this context, the pilot must be qualified to doso. That means being current and having the appropriate endorsements inaddition to ratings.
Rule 4. Based on an unpublished and (sofar) unverifiable 1977 Chief Counsel opinion, you may log PIC if you are actingas PIC and you are the only person on board with the necessary aircraftratings. In other words, if no one else on board may log PIC time, the personacting as PIC may. Note that there is nothing whatsoever in 61.51 to supportthis interpretation. Although I received a copy from a source that I trust(sort of), there is some reasonable disagreement on whether it's any good oreven really exists. But it does answer the silly question: "Can I log PICwhile I let my four year old niece fly the airplane?" Frankly, I can'timagine that the FAA gives a hoot about this one way or another.
Rule 5. If you are a student,recreational, private, or commercial pilot and don't fit into Rules 1-4, youmay not log the time as PIC under FAR 61.51 even if you are acting asPIC. This is the bottom line that tells us how different the concepts of"acting as PIC" and "logging PIC time" can be. An example:An instrument rated and current private pilot files an instrument flight planbut lets her non-instrument rated friend do all of the flying. Let's go a stepfurther. Most of the flight takes place in IMC. The instrument rated pilot, whois clearly acting as PIC and responsible for everything is entitled tolog nothing in the PIC column of her logbook under 61.51.
Keep them straight Acting as PIC means duty,authority, and responsibility. Logging Part 61 PIC Time means putting numbersin columns on a piece of paper. Different purposes, different concepts,different rules.
Acting as PIC and Logging PIC TimeExplained
The "golden key" tounderstanding the rules of logging PIC is to always keep in mind hat the FAAtreats "acting as pilot in command" and "logging pilot incommand time" under FAR 61.51 as completely different concepts.It's the difference between (1) having final authority and responsibility forthe operation and safety of a flight (commonly referred to as "acting asPIC") and (2) writing numbers in columns on a piece of paper while sittingat a desk with a beer in your hand. They never mean the same thing andthey have completely different rules. A pilot can be responsible for a flightand not be permitted to write those numbers down. A pilot can betechnically nothing but a passenger in the FAA's eyes and be permitted to writetime in that PIC column. In some circumstances, two pilots may sit at that deskand write numbers in their logbooks, even though, quite obviously, only one canbear the ultimate responsibility for a flight.
The known universe of rules for loggingto show qualification for certificates, ratings and currency is contained inFAR 61.51. Unless 61.51 specifically directs you to it, answering a loggingquestion by including the word "acting" or pointing to any other FARis always a mistake. This is a simplified version of the rules of Part61 PIC logging as they have been written in the FAR and repeatedly andconsistently interpreted by the FAA Legal Counsel since at least 1980. It'slimited to student, recreational, private, and commercial pilots. CFIs and ATPscan fend for themselves. If they don't know the rules, tough.
Rule 1. If you are a recreational,private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the solemanipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. [61.51(e)(1)(i)]"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating isnecessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilotcertificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements forhigh performance, complex, or tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Notflight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions. Notethat the rule is different for sport pilots who have endorsed"privileges" for aircraft in their logbooks instead of ratings ontheir pilot certificates.
Rule 2. If you are a student,recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are theonly person in the aircraft. [61.51(e)(1)(ii) and 61.51(e)(4)] This means thateven without category and class ratings, you may log PIC time if you are solo.In addition to the obvious (student solo), it also means, for example, that ifyou are rated ASEL and solo in an AMEL or ASES, you may log the time as PIC.
Rule 3. If you are a private orcommercial pilot, you may log as PIC any time you are acting as PIC (in charge)of a flight on which more than one pilot is required [61.51(e)(1)(iii)] Morethan one pilot may be required because the aircraft is not certified forsingle-pilot operations. But more common for us, it covers simulated instrumentflight where a second "safety pilot" is required by the regulationswhile the "manipulator" is under the hood. [91.109(b)] If the twopilots agree that the safety pilot is acting as PIC, the safety pilot can logthe time as PIC. An important, but often misunderstood part of this rule isthat in order to act as PIC in this context, the pilot must be qualified to doso. That means being current and having the appropriate endorsements inaddition to ratings.
Rule 4. Based on an unpublished and (sofar) unverifiable 1977 Chief Counsel opinion, you may log PIC if you are actingas PIC and you are the only person on board with the necessary aircraftratings. In other words, if no one else on board may log PIC time, the personacting as PIC may. Note that there is nothing whatsoever in 61.51 to supportthis interpretation. Although I received a copy from a source that I trust(sort of), there is some reasonable disagreement on whether it's any good oreven really exists. But it does answer the silly question: "Can I log PICwhile I let my four year old niece fly the airplane?" Frankly, I can'timagine that the FAA gives a hoot about this one way or another.
Rule 5. If you are a student,recreational, private, or commercial pilot and don't fit into Rules 1-4, youmay not log the time as PIC under FAR 61.51 even if you are acting asPIC. This is the bottom line that tells us how different the concepts of"acting as PIC" and "logging PIC time" can be. An example:An instrument rated and current private pilot files an instrument flight planbut lets her non-instrument rated friend do all of the flying. Let's go a stepfurther. Most of the flight takes place in IMC. The instrument rated pilot, whois clearly acting as PIC and responsible for everything is entitled tolog nothing in the PIC column of her logbook under 61.51.
Keep them straight Acting as PIC means duty,authority, and responsibility. Logging Part 61 PIC Time means putting numbersin columns on a piece of paper. Different purposes, different concepts,different rules.
