ITP rating, what is it?
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ITP rating, what is it?
Hello everyone,
I was speaking to a friend of mine who has been accepted into the KLM flight academy and he was telling me how it works. He was accepted as a second officer and told me he is going to get to fly the md-11. I said it must be an honor having a go on those rare birds but he told me that a second officer can fly than more than one type of plane depending on the routes and then mentioned something about the ITP ratings for a plane saying if you have the rating you can fly the plane. What is an ITP rating and how does it work? Im keen as its most likely I would start off as a second officer at major airlines.
Cheers guys
I was speaking to a friend of mine who has been accepted into the KLM flight academy and he was telling me how it works. He was accepted as a second officer and told me he is going to get to fly the md-11. I said it must be an honor having a go on those rare birds but he told me that a second officer can fly than more than one type of plane depending on the routes and then mentioned something about the ITP ratings for a plane saying if you have the rating you can fly the plane. What is an ITP rating and how does it work? Im keen as its most likely I would start off as a second officer at major airlines.
Cheers guys
Joined: Jan 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Europe
I don't know what your friend means with an ITP rating, but as far as I know second officers on the long range fleets (i.e. fresh from the academy) work as cruise relief pilots for the first years at KLM. They don't do any takeoffs and landings on the plane, but sit at the controls during cruise flight while one of the other pilots is resting.
I have never heard that they get several ratings and have only met guys flying a single type (i.e. either MD11, B747, B777 or A330). But I am always standing by to be corrected
.
I have never heard that they get several ratings and have only met guys flying a single type (i.e. either MD11, B747, B777 or A330). But I am always standing by to be corrected
.
Joined: Jan 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 279
Likes: 17
From: Europe
I really can't tell you how the second officers/relief pilots are exactly handled at KLM since I am not flying for them.
In my airline relief pilots have a complete typerating with the restriction of not being allowed to perform takeoffs and landings. They are allowed to occupy the right seat above 20.000'. I guess it is similar in other airlines.
As for the requirements... I guess that depends on the company. At our outfit most of the relief pilots are former Flight Engineers which - when the last aircraft requiring a FE left the company - where either too old or did not want to become a FO, or they did not pass the selection process for a FO position (they had to do the same selection as required for someone trying to get to the academy or for Ready Entry Pilots).
Some airlines, e.g. KLM or (as far as I know) Cathay have Second Officer programms in which the SO flys as relief pilot for the first couple of years. As for the details about that, you'd better be off asking someone flying there - for example your friend.
In my airline relief pilots have a complete typerating with the restriction of not being allowed to perform takeoffs and landings. They are allowed to occupy the right seat above 20.000'. I guess it is similar in other airlines.
As for the requirements... I guess that depends on the company. At our outfit most of the relief pilots are former Flight Engineers which - when the last aircraft requiring a FE left the company - where either too old or did not want to become a FO, or they did not pass the selection process for a FO position (they had to do the same selection as required for someone trying to get to the academy or for Ready Entry Pilots).
Some airlines, e.g. KLM or (as far as I know) Cathay have Second Officer programms in which the SO flys as relief pilot for the first couple of years. As for the details about that, you'd better be off asking someone flying there - for example your friend.
Guest
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Thanks for yet anther reply. You need full type ratings then at your airline? Wow, seems like a bit for a relief pilot. By the way what do you mean by occupytue right seat after 20.000? But I think the SO is a better way of getting into an airline, and gets you plenty of hours.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,203
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From: Seattle
I never heard of an ITP rating. What is it?
Whether you call it a relief pilot, SO, or restricted FO, the job is likely the same: sit in the seat and monitor the gauges while in level cruise. You might get a "big event" and do an altitude change or route modification via the FMS and autopilot. You will get NO manual handling of the controls, and NO takeoffs or landings. You may get "plenty of hours," but they will be relatively useless as flying experience.
In the worst case scenario, you may get yourself into a critical situation like those poor sods on AF447, and be unable to figure out how to get out of it.
TRAINING and CERTIFICATION differences may determine when and how you progress from a low-paying RP/SO job to a higher-paying FO position, or if you ever get to try for a Captain position. Without PILOT IN COMMAND time, you can't an ATPL. Without an ATPL, you won't get to the Captain's seat, and in many [US] airlines you won't even get an FO position. The US doesn't recognize the MPL (Multi-crew Pilot License), and there is an uncertain (at best) upgrade path from the MPL in those countries that accept it.
Whether you call it a relief pilot, SO, or restricted FO, the job is likely the same: sit in the seat and monitor the gauges while in level cruise. You might get a "big event" and do an altitude change or route modification via the FMS and autopilot. You will get NO manual handling of the controls, and NO takeoffs or landings. You may get "plenty of hours," but they will be relatively useless as flying experience.
In the worst case scenario, you may get yourself into a critical situation like those poor sods on AF447, and be unable to figure out how to get out of it.
TRAINING and CERTIFICATION differences may determine when and how you progress from a low-paying RP/SO job to a higher-paying FO position, or if you ever get to try for a Captain position. Without PILOT IN COMMAND time, you can't an ATPL. Without an ATPL, you won't get to the Captain's seat, and in many [US] airlines you won't even get an FO position. The US doesn't recognize the MPL (Multi-crew Pilot License), and there is an uncertain (at best) upgrade path from the MPL in those countries that accept it.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,203
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From: Seattle
In the US you can become an FO at 18, though that will change to 23 when an ATP is required. We had a 747 FO at age 26.
Many airlines don't even designate SO's -- they only hire those pilots that qualify as FO's. Many of them require an ATP already for FO's as well.
I don't know what the time progression is at other airlines.
I still want to know what an ITP is...
Many airlines don't even designate SO's -- they only hire those pilots that qualify as FO's. Many of them require an ATP already for FO's as well.
I don't know what the time progression is at other airlines.
I still want to know what an ITP is...
Guest
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But when you apply to the cadet programmes (BA cadet, Virgin, Lufthansa, KLM etc) don`t you usually start off as an SO because all the seniors at the airlines pick the types they want? And I heard from someone its the long hauls that are usually left behind
EDIT- here is something for you to read to kind of see the difference between the US and Europe, Second Officer? Wich Airlines Have Them? — Civil Aviation Forum | !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EDIT- here is something for you to read to kind of see the difference between the US and Europe, Second Officer? Wich Airlines Have Them? — Civil Aviation Forum | !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by 747 forever; 13th March 2012 at 12:46.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,562
Likes: 33
From: I wouldn't know.
There is no SO at lufthansa, every cadet starts out as a normal FO on either the airbus A320 family, 737 classic or as new entry type on the embraer 190 series (flying for lufthansa cityline then). After around 4 to 6 years one is eligible to change onto a longrange type or change company to lufthansa cargo (MD11). After a few years they will have the chance to become a senior FO with cruise captain qualification and finally they will at some point upgrade to the left seat on a shortrange type (currently A320, 737, Embraer) where they will be blocked for around 6 years before they can change back onto longrange. That way cadets will earn real hours and landings on the shorthaul fleet which means a large number of sectors in a short time (especially flying for german wings).
Other airlines do use SOs, however those hours are virtually useless as no actual aircraft handling is done, especially no landings and take offs, it is just a rather extended route experience program.
Other airlines do use SOs, however those hours are virtually useless as no actual aircraft handling is done, especially no landings and take offs, it is just a rather extended route experience program.
Guest
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excuse me for not knowing that Lufthansa don`t use SO. Thanks for the reply, so it pretty much varies by airline. Well it seems more fun being on the long hauls (more exotic destinations around the world to visit) and it only takes a couple of years to work into the left seat
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,562
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From: I wouldn't know.
Captaincy or upgrade is decided by seniority in legacy airlines. Doesn't matter if you start as seatwarmer without any required manual handling skills on a longhaul jet or as fully qualified pilot on a shorthaul aircraft. Expect usually around 12 to 16 years in big airlines, except in times of rapid growth where it can be as short as 5 years. However airlines which grow that fast and need many longhaul captains require usually a lot of prior experience in jets which translates roughly into the same timeframe.