STAR Clearance limits

[Capt Sly]

I fly all over the place and on 99% of occasions the only holding I do is at LHR (my base). Other operators may not be so used to the fact that for 70% of the day you'll have to go into the hold at LHR, so you have to imagine being in their shoes. Also some pilots may be using the latest charts which now include an intermediate approach (whereas the old charts from 5 years ago merely had the STAR's and final approaches). Finally some people may just be having finger trouble - forgetting to press the 'execute' button or similar.

How to solve your problem is another matter. The best suggestion I have is to get the airlines involved in the misdemeanors to write the information in their RIM's (Route Information Manuals) if they have them, or get them to write something in their briefings (for example a NOTAM) to highlight the potential problem. The entry should include 'pilots should generally expect to hold at LHR, and if there is any doubt then one should clarify the clearance limit/holding pattern with ATC' or similar.

Alternatively perhaps you guys can have a leaderboard of airlines that make the mistake - much like airlines that do CDA's, and publish the results!

Having more crap on the ATIS is not an option I would like to see used - the weather takes up 2 lines, and the disclaimers these days seem to take up 20 lines! Wing tip clearance, readbacks etc.

Good luck with the challenge.

P.S> I have trouble with holding patterns in the US - "hold 070 SW patterns" is just really confusing to me especially after 12 hours at work!

[Intruder]

What I was asking was why does this happen, it seems fair to me, to say that it is written clear enough on the STAR charts, however, after discussions with a colleague of mine who works one of the London sectors that aircraft may talk to on arrival into Heathrow, I was informed that on occasion the controllers may say 'cleared (insert STAR here) for landing R27 L'.

OK...

What EXACTLY does your controllers' handbook (or whatever you call your governing document) say you are supposed to say? What is the EXACT WORDING you are supposed to use when clearing an airplane on a STAR toe end in a hold at the STAR clearance limit?

If this document is accessible to the public online, a URL and paragraph citation will do.

Once again, you admit that controllers occasionally make mistakes, and you also admit that controllers occasionally use confusing phraseology. Still, you indicate that the number of times the pilot fails to hold where required is less than the number of times the mistake or confusing phraseology is used. Why is it that you still have to ask the question as to why pilots occasionally make mistakes or misread an approach plate? The "human factor" is at work in both the cockpit and the control room. If we could expect that every pilot and every controller is perfect, then we could dispense with check rides, inspectors, etc...

Pilots, like controllers, rarely INTENTIONALLY bust a clearance. However, with the plethora of rules around the world, you can expect occasional confusion. You deal with one set of rules; we deal with too many to count!

I suspect that "Dream Land" is exactly there, not in the real world...

[D-OCHO]

Our rules are such that if delays are over 20 minutes, then we have to give the aircraft an EAT.

I find this a dangerous rule. Especially in case of com failure.

Does this mean that if I have I have a com failure and have not received a efc after 20 minutes I can proceed further. If so where does this state that in the Jeppesen.

If this is not stated in the Jeppesen you better start issuing efc's.

[Crazy Voyager]

I always thought Jeppesen was a chart designer and as such had to make sure their charts correspond to the respective national rules and regulations.

To change a rule because a jeppesen chart does not have it seems backwards to me, surely the chart should be changed to reflect the correct rule?

[Rod Eddington]

Not trying to excuse the practice by any means but this could be something that arises due to your somewhat lazier colleagues in southern Europe. Frequently when flying in Spain you will get to the clearance limit with no onward clearance and when you report entering the hold (usually tongue in cheek as you know the guy/gal probably doesn't want you to hold but has either forgotten (no problem) or is too lazy (problem)) you get spoken to as if a complete idiot and get given a heading or something. Again, not saying it's correct but might be a contributory factor to your problem.

[D-OCHO]

To change a rule because a jeppesen chart does not have it seems backwards to me, surely the chart should be changed to reflect the correct rule?

Reason I quote the jeppesen is that 99% of the people flying around use them.
And yes Jeppesen is a chart designer but they get there info from the country's AIP. So if something is not on the Jeppesen either it is NOT in the AIP or Jeppesen made a big mistake.

[Crazy Voyager]

True.

How ever since it says clearly in the charts (that are in the AIP) that you should NOT continue without ATC clearance it should also be in the jepp charts.

I can't confirm since I haven't got access to any jepp charts but the ones I found on google (a few years old) say it as well.

[D-OCHO]

How ever since it says clearly in the charts (that are in the AIP) that you should NOT continue without ATC clearance it should also be in the jepp charts.

I was not referring to the chart. I wholy agree with you on that.
What I don't agree with was that if the delay was less then 20 min. you would not get a EFC time. The is dangerous. Every time I enter a hold I expect an EFC time.