Spanish ATC ** RANT ***
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Spanish ATC ** RANT ***
Why is it that every time I fly to Spain these days I must:
-Follow the full arrival procedure
-Hold
-Have a slot
-Be in the slot window for pushback but be denied to go
-Follow full SID out again
What a waste of time/ fuel / nerves!! Hold, but we can't give you an EFC time. Oh yes, 4 runways in madrid, but 30 minutes of holding?? In the last year, i've done 1 ONE single lap going into Gatwick! And they have one single runway!
Everywhere else in europe a slot window exists, 5 min before to 10 min after, but spain?? And when I argue on the radio, (I know I shouldn't) I'm told, ATC's discretion mano.
Other day into Malaga, with a Spanish colleague no less, they left us super high on approach, and then a low speed limit of course, so oh good times on the stable approach criteria. Slot at 1118, so allowed to start at 1113, and then finally airborne from 31 after some more faffing about, we had to fly the WHOLE Bailen 1G departure! Are you kidding me??? Severe CAVOK, nobody for miles around, but a "Direct to LOJAS?" was greeted with an "
off and follow standard routing"... We were climbing through 10000ft abeam the field...
The said spanish colleague reconfirmed what I'd already heard. He's got two mates in Spanish ATC whos paycheques are in the 12,000euro a month range. (yes yes the base salary is 3000 a month but did you know that their overtime starts after 1250 hours in a year?) And they think they are the best controllers anywhere!! Hahaha you hombres (and ladies) need to get your heads out of your proverbial *rses and start doing your job. Your work ethic is absolutely attrocious, terrible for the economy, terrible for the environment, and a complete waste of the paying publics time. I'd rather fly to any other European country than Spain any day of the week.
Another problem the said spanish colleague mentioned was that ATC are untouchable. And there is the real problem. Arguing on the radio will only make my headache worse, so not much point in that. Is there any other method of action that can be taken??
Rant over, thank you for your time. You may now return to your regularily scheduled programming.
-Follow the full arrival procedure
-Hold
-Have a slot
-Be in the slot window for pushback but be denied to go
-Follow full SID out again
What a waste of time/ fuel / nerves!! Hold, but we can't give you an EFC time. Oh yes, 4 runways in madrid, but 30 minutes of holding?? In the last year, i've done 1 ONE single lap going into Gatwick! And they have one single runway!
Everywhere else in europe a slot window exists, 5 min before to 10 min after, but spain?? And when I argue on the radio, (I know I shouldn't) I'm told, ATC's discretion mano.
Other day into Malaga, with a Spanish colleague no less, they left us super high on approach, and then a low speed limit of course, so oh good times on the stable approach criteria. Slot at 1118, so allowed to start at 1113, and then finally airborne from 31 after some more faffing about, we had to fly the WHOLE Bailen 1G departure! Are you kidding me??? Severe CAVOK, nobody for miles around, but a "Direct to LOJAS?" was greeted with an "
off and follow standard routing"... We were climbing through 10000ft abeam the field...The said spanish colleague reconfirmed what I'd already heard. He's got two mates in Spanish ATC whos paycheques are in the 12,000euro a month range. (yes yes the base salary is 3000 a month but did you know that their overtime starts after 1250 hours in a year?) And they think they are the best controllers anywhere!! Hahaha you hombres (and ladies) need to get your heads out of your proverbial *rses and start doing your job. Your work ethic is absolutely attrocious, terrible for the economy, terrible for the environment, and a complete waste of the paying publics time. I'd rather fly to any other European country than Spain any day of the week.
Another problem the said spanish colleague mentioned was that ATC are untouchable. And there is the real problem. Arguing on the radio will only make my headache worse, so not much point in that. Is there any other method of action that can be taken??
Rant over, thank you for your time. You may now return to your regularily scheduled programming.
Last edited by HerrStiffler; 14th Jul 2011 at 05:09.
Also, for civil servants of a near bankrupt country to be striking over pay and conditions when they are amongst the most ridiculously overpaid (and least effective) ATC in the world is disgusting!
Here we go again! Where have you been hiding the past 12 months? I think you've been in your tent too long Herrstiffler.
How about swapping some of the controllers at LATCC or Maastricht say with those at Madrid or Barcelona? - we'd see some major changes within days methinks.
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How about swapping some of the controllers at LATCC or Maastricht say with those at Madrid or Barcelona? - we'd see some major changes within days methinks.
It would probably take 6 months or longer for an experienced controller from another unit to validate. Following which you would have to expect delays through LATCC and Maastricht due to staff shortages!
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HerrStiffler,
I think you should come and work in China for a few years, it will definately change your attitude to Spanish ATC, might do your blood pressure no good though.
I think you should come and work in China for a few years, it will definately change your attitude to Spanish ATC, might do your blood pressure no good though.
I believe I raised the (Kunming?) controller's BP one night when we were westbound HKG to FKW in a B747 and had a line of Cb arise to our fore.
Although there was lots of China on the right and the Viet border some way to the left, we turned left towards a gap which appeared. The gap disappeared.
Upshot was that we got 'very close' to the border with the controller screaming at us to turn right or return to HK and us assuring him that we would do so very shortly.
We thanked him profusely for his services, wished him a very good night and neither of us went into print re the matter
Although there was lots of China on the right and the Viet border some way to the left, we turned left towards a gap which appeared. The gap disappeared.
Upshot was that we got 'very close' to the border with the controller screaming at us to turn right or return to HK and us assuring him that we would do so very shortly.
We thanked him profusely for his services, wished him a very good night and neither of us went into print re the matter
"The INTRODUCER"
Commuted to Madrid every two weeks for last two years. Spent many unhappy hours drifting round the countryside in CAVOK, no other a/c in sight, then zillion mile finals to the vast, empty wastes of Barajas with a choice of two ginormous, comically underused, parallels. All followed, frequently, by epic taxi-ins because landed on the wrong parallel for the terminal. At least at T1 you get out of the place sharpish, at shiny new T4 you park your life for about 90min before you're on the road.
Great city, wonderful country, absolutely charming people - with an awful, socially parisitic, ATC service.
Great city, wonderful country, absolutely charming people - with an awful, socially parisitic, ATC service.
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I think you should come and work in China for a few years, it will definately change your attitude to Spanish ATC, might do your blood pressure no good though.
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Perhaps it is high time that some Phantom CB's appeared in Spain. "I need XXX degrees left/right due weather". If that coincides with a sensible direct routing, then so be it.
The latest game at PMI last week was an instruction to fly 210 until 10 miles. A polite refusal followed.
The latest game at PMI last week was an instruction to fly 210 until 10 miles. A polite refusal followed.
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The best one I have had recently is the Corda 1v. We always do the whole thing towards ADX knowing full well a Nostrum/Iberia will come on frequency any second and get a direct Larul! Followed by "turn south"..."turn north" then direct IBZ all the time making room for the Nostrum to complete his shortcut for Corda.
It's no coincidence that Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are the only countries in Europe to go bankrupt in the last 200 years....Twice! Your attitude determines your altitude
It's no coincidence that Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are the only countries in Europe to go bankrupt in the last 200 years....Twice! Your attitude determines your altitude
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763, your method has already been tried. The first attempt led to success, but the second was firstly ignored, then told follow published route, then ignored again. It does lead me to wonder though:
-Can ATC "see" the weather on their screens? From the string of brand new terminals that have popped up around Spain, has their spending spree extended to perhaps the latest greatest machinery that displays ie. satellite imagery in real time?
-What happens if I request a heading due to weather, am denied, and follow route into the serious crap? Is ATC responsible for this decision, and with what implications?
-To further that thought, blatantly lying to ATC to get a turn is a can of worms I'm not sure I want to open up. I doubt it would stand up in court, and I'd imagine could lead to a loss of my IFR priviledges? Or fines or who knows what?
I've done southeast asia in a previous life, and there's a good reason I spent too much time / money / energy on a shiny green book. This is where I want to be. The spanish ATC need to get with the program like the rest of europe. Algy's experience says it perfectly!
-Can ATC "see" the weather on their screens? From the string of brand new terminals that have popped up around Spain, has their spending spree extended to perhaps the latest greatest machinery that displays ie. satellite imagery in real time?
-What happens if I request a heading due to weather, am denied, and follow route into the serious crap? Is ATC responsible for this decision, and with what implications?
-To further that thought, blatantly lying to ATC to get a turn is a can of worms I'm not sure I want to open up. I doubt it would stand up in court, and I'd imagine could lead to a loss of my IFR priviledges? Or fines or who knows what?
I've done southeast asia in a previous life, and there's a good reason I spent too much time / money / energy on a shiny green book. This is where I want to be. The spanish ATC need to get with the program like the rest of europe. Algy's experience says it perfectly!
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Spanish ATC
I'm only a paper shuffler but flew into Madrid Barjas T4 yesterday and after being in the hold for 5 minutes when we got on the ground it seemed that not much was moving in fact not much there at all apart from the IB A340's and they had obviously been on the ground for a while, it seemed odd and now I know why.
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Attitude vs Altitude
@ tonker
Forgetting Ireland, aren't you?
I cannot recall Portuguese ATC being compared to Spanish ATC in this Forum or anywhere else, for that matter.
Anyway, I can't find any relevance in this sentence... Because, if it had any, you would be flying in your country, at "Murdoch FL", i.e. below 100, wouldn't you?
It's no coincidence that Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are the only countries in Europe to go bankrupt in the last 200 years....Twice! Your attitude determines your altitude
I cannot recall Portuguese ATC being compared to Spanish ATC in this Forum or anywhere else, for that matter.
Anyway, I can't find any relevance in this sentence... Because, if it had any, you would be flying in your country, at "Murdoch FL", i.e. below 100, wouldn't you?
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1. Murdoch is an American citizen who was born in Australia
2. Ireland has never been bankrupt(and has good ATC)
3. Your right Portugal's ATC has always been very good i find, and Faro works like clockwork.
2. Ireland has never been bankrupt(and has good ATC)
3. Your right Portugal's ATC has always been very good i find, and Faro works like clockwork.
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Not knowing what I'm talking about clearly (as you'll soon find out), but isn't part of the problem that the ops for most airlines prohibits VFR? If they allowed VFR, couldn't you just cancel IFR when vis is good and just head for the field and shorten your approaches/save the environment/help reduce your blood pressure?