P2 or P1 U/S ??
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P2 or P1 U/S ??
I have recently started working for a UK operator and I'm really not that sure how I should be logging my hours as a First Officer.
Some of my fellow First Officers log P1 U/S when PF and P2 when PNF.
I personally think I should be logging P2 for everything as an FO.
My logbook gives the following definitions.
P1 U/S: Pilot-in-charge under supervision. (Each entry is to be countersigned by the captain of the aircraft concerned).
P2: Second pilot exercising the privileges of his licence as a required member of the operating crew.
Any thoughts, experiences??
Some of my fellow First Officers log P1 U/S when PF and P2 when PNF.
I personally think I should be logging P2 for everything as an FO.
My logbook gives the following definitions.
P1 U/S: Pilot-in-charge under supervision. (Each entry is to be countersigned by the captain of the aircraft concerned).
P2: Second pilot exercising the privileges of his licence as a required member of the operating crew.
Any thoughts, experiences??
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Your fellow First Officers are correct.
CAA isn't too bothered about each flight being signed by the captain (impractical), a letter from your company is normally sufficient for licence issue etc.
CAA isn't too bothered about each flight being signed by the captain (impractical), a letter from your company is normally sufficient for licence issue etc.
Jazz hands (or anyone else)
How does being in charge on the flight deck whilst the captain is asleep allow you to log P1 time? My UK CAA log book says that "prior to flight one pilot will be designated as commander and log the entire flight time as P1". For an example, if the captain is asleep and you have a problem which requires you to shut down an engine then the operating crew would deal with it according to memory drills and QRH...but having done that would you not wake the captain up to discuss fuel / diversions etc, or would you decide to divert and when he came back to the flight deck an hour later tell him or her that you are now headed for Keflavik instead of New York (or wherever?). If the answer to that question is the former then how can you log time as P1, he or she is still in command, but just absent from the flight deck and if that worked then the F/O would be logging 5 minutes of P1 every time the captain went out for a Pee.
Power on Spin
As has been said in the UK you can log P1/s as co-pilot, but the actual wording of the regulation not just that you are PF but that you carry out all the duties of the commander for that flight, which should involve checking the weather, deciding on fuel load, briefing the cabin crew, liasing with handlers, filling in the tech log (not signing it) etc etc. You don't have to be handling the controls - a new captain being line trained is P1/s for both handling and non handling sectors. The main reason for it is to have the 150 hours or whatever it is of P1 time to "unfreeze" a "frozen ATPL" (CPL/IR with ATPL theoretical knowledge). After that it is meaningless and whilst people like to do it to fill up the PIC column in their log books it counts for no more than P2 - if you look at job adds for captains it almost always asks for PIC on type, not just P1 time.
How does being in charge on the flight deck whilst the captain is asleep allow you to log P1 time? My UK CAA log book says that "prior to flight one pilot will be designated as commander and log the entire flight time as P1". For an example, if the captain is asleep and you have a problem which requires you to shut down an engine then the operating crew would deal with it according to memory drills and QRH...but having done that would you not wake the captain up to discuss fuel / diversions etc, or would you decide to divert and when he came back to the flight deck an hour later tell him or her that you are now headed for Keflavik instead of New York (or wherever?). If the answer to that question is the former then how can you log time as P1, he or she is still in command, but just absent from the flight deck and if that worked then the F/O would be logging 5 minutes of P1 every time the captain went out for a Pee.
Power on Spin
As has been said in the UK you can log P1/s as co-pilot, but the actual wording of the regulation not just that you are PF but that you carry out all the duties of the commander for that flight, which should involve checking the weather, deciding on fuel load, briefing the cabin crew, liasing with handlers, filling in the tech log (not signing it) etc etc. You don't have to be handling the controls - a new captain being line trained is P1/s for both handling and non handling sectors. The main reason for it is to have the 150 hours or whatever it is of P1 time to "unfreeze" a "frozen ATPL" (CPL/IR with ATPL theoretical knowledge). After that it is meaningless and whilst people like to do it to fill up the PIC column in their log books it counts for no more than P2 - if you look at job adds for captains it almost always asks for PIC on type, not just P1 time.
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LASORS, Section A, Appendix B contains all the info you need.
Essentially, what everyone else said!
If it's 'your' sector, and you're taking decisions, and running the show (ish), then you can count it as PICUS. This would therefore not really include Line Training etc.
When you're acting as PNF / PM, you would log P2.
If this wasn't the case, turning a CPL into an ATPL would be quite tricky.
Essentially, what everyone else said!
If it's 'your' sector, and you're taking decisions, and running the show (ish), then you can count it as PICUS. This would therefore not really include Line Training etc.
When you're acting as PNF / PM, you would log P2.
If this wasn't the case, turning a CPL into an ATPL would be quite tricky.
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As stated above, but to summarize:
Captain: always the aircraft commander (unless two Captains, special case*) therefore always: P.1
F/O: if handling pilot: PICUS or P.1u/s in olde English. (Should be countersigned but nobody bothers.)
.......if non-handling: P.2
A Cruise Captain is not the aircraft Commander and should not be logging P.1
*Some VIP companies crew with two Captains, in this case, before flight, one will be designated commander, and log P.1, the other will log as per F/O above, either PICUS or P.2 dependent on whether handling or not.
Captain: always the aircraft commander (unless two Captains, special case*) therefore always: P.1
F/O: if handling pilot: PICUS or P.1u/s in olde English. (Should be countersigned but nobody bothers.)
.......if non-handling: P.2
A Cruise Captain is not the aircraft Commander and should not be logging P.1
*Some VIP companies crew with two Captains, in this case, before flight, one will be designated commander, and log P.1, the other will log as per F/O above, either PICUS or P.2 dependent on whether handling or not.
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Agreed. PICUS if PF. P2 if PNF In theory you should also be making a contribution to the planning and execution of any decisions, not just blindly pressing buttons if logging PICUS.
Letter more than sufficient.
Whoever is logging hours sitting in the LHS as relief pilot as P1 is totally incorrect. One Commander, one guy logging P1. Even if he/she is getting their head down.
Letter more than sufficient.
Whoever is logging hours sitting in the LHS as relief pilot as P1 is totally incorrect. One Commander, one guy logging P1. Even if he/she is getting their head down.
