Performance Question

[stefair]

OK guys, following scenario:

Seneca, single pilot operation, IFR, RWY length 10,000 feet, MSA 2,100 feet.

I understand JAR-OPS states 1500m vis required for launch with single hand operation. Assuming I have exactly that.

Do I have a V1 speed? Or just VR and V2?

I remember from my IFR training that in my Emergency Briefing I always distinguished between sufficient and insufficient RWY remaining, as with such a long RWY I could still be landing even after rotation.

Any thoughts?

I am trying to put together an appropriate TO/Emergency Briefing for an upcoming screening and came up with this:

This will be a flaps-up departure from RWY X. RWY surface is dry/wet. Callouts are Power Set, Airspeed Alive, T’s And P’s Are In The Green, Rotate, Positive Rate, Gear Up. Speeds are 80 and 100kts. Any malfunctions below 80kts I will call Stop and abort the TO. Any malfunctions after rotation, I will continue the TO. No action below 400’ except gear up, fly the AC on RWY heading, and climb to 2100’. After 400’ and being stabilized I will perform the emergency memory items and once I reach 2100’ I go to the checklist. I will request vectors for a return to this RWY. Any questions?

What do you guys think? Thanks for help!

[stefair]

Oh, and one more thing please:

I did my IFR training on a Dutchess so not too familiar with the Seneca. Can you please give me appropriate speeds and lever/power settings for TO, climb, air work, cruise, holding and approach. Thank you very much guys! Much appreciated!

[411A]

As the concerned aircraft was originally certificaicated under 14CFR23, there is no such thing as a V1 with this airplane.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Stefair

Mate your instructor should have issued you enough instruction as to what your considerations are with regard to an emergency on, or during T/O.

The use of V1-VR-V2 speeds are not relevant to your Seneca, and in the interests of your life expectancy you need to understand this.

What I get upset with is the NEW BREED of Flt Instructor, that insists on this Professional Airline Briefing in this equipment, with the mind set that goes with it, and the contrary actions to the brief in the event of an emergency, or on the other hand the insistence that the brief will be followed.

Both can and probably will kill you.

You should be using the BLUE LINE as a reference speed, until a safe height, or until you cannot land on remaining runway.

You should also know that you can use all the Indicated Airspeed from BLUE LINE TO RED LINE, sparingly of course.

Your comment of no actions below 400 ft, with 10000 ft of runway? and you have one cough and spit the dummy at say 100 ft and you are going to continue, brave man!

My actions and my brief when I fly a small twin, "On T/O", Any Engine Failure, or Critical To Continued Flt Safety Event Occurring, after rotation, the continue, gear retraction, land straight ahead (within Reason) is my decision! then there is the need to understand the judgment of your decision to retract the gear, I wont retract the gear due to the stabilizing effect and both the untried & untested, effect of having an engine failure at blue line at say 50ft above the runway, do not retract the gear until you can not land on the remaining runway, and you are at a safe height to trade any re trim for a slight decrease in "precious" altitude.

Some A/C (twins) on gear retraction require a re trim, and suffer a change in aerodynamics, in this case retracting the gear could cause you an increase in VMCA!

IF you are going for a check with your instructor, you show him this, and you ask him to explain his actions? and his expectations.

Chr's
H/Snort.

[john_tullamarine]

Stefair,

I'm with 411A and Hoggs .. you are falling into the dangerous trap of trying to fly a lightie on takeoff like heavy iron .. just doesn't work to try making a silk purse of a sow's ear .. the two are very different.

I can recall getting a regular grin from the other side on renewals in light twins .. my brief was along the lines of "anything significant - or you touch anything - below 200ft and we're landing... above 200 ft and we'll see how things are going. If we keep going then .. (a brief synopsis of a recovery plan)".

Interestingly, no-one ever tested me on the "touch anything below 200ft warning".. I see no benefit to me in being brave and/or stupid etc.

Civil certification doesn't go into any great detail in the engine failure for this class of aircraft. For the military certification scenario, the crew would have a lot more information available upon which to base a pre-takeoff plan.

[Clandestino]

Originally Posted by hoggsnortrupert

What I get upset with is the NEW BREED of Flt Instructor, that insists on this Professional Airline Briefing in this equipment, with the mind set that goes with it, and the contrary actions to the brief in the event of an emergency, or on the other hand the insistence that the brief will be followed.

At last I've found one little benefit of MPL - demise of hour building instructors trying to fly Seneca as if it were A320.

Originally Posted by stefair

No action below 400’ except gear up, fly the AC on RWY heading, and climb to 2100’. After 400’ and being stabilized I will perform the emergency memory items

Dude, this "no-action-below-acc-alt" works only for jets or if you have autofeathering props. In light twin if you don't feather prop on the failed engine, you might see a very, very long climb to 400'. If you're hot and heavy, you might never be able to climb 400. V1 cuts in turboprop sims with autofeather failed are something no one forgets for the rest of his career.

Far too many people got killed or nearly killed trying to fly the aeroplane as if it were some other type and seemingly this dangerous nonsense still goes on.

[stefair]

Dude, mate... I feel I am being patronized here but all I wanted to know was a sensible answer to my question.

None of my instructors was trying to fly the Dutchess I did my ME and IFR training on as if it was a jet so relax. I just could not remember a normal emergency briefing anymore so was looking on the Net and found this Airline Safety, CRM, CLR, Pilot Instructor View, Avoiding Pilot causation of accidents. That's what I used and what made me post my question here.

I recently completed my MCC training on a BE200 and see that I am obviously now 'poisened' with elements of this training. Sorry. Verry sorry. But now I know.

Thanks all the same.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Stefair:

QUOTE: Dude, mate... I feel I am being patronized here but all I wanted to know was a sensible answer to my question.

QUOTE: I just could not remember a normal emergency briefing anymore so was looking on the Net and found this Airline Safety, CRM, CLR, Pilot Instructor View, Avoiding Pilot causation of accidents. That's what I used and what made me post my question here.

BUDDY! No one is patronizing you AT ALL!

BUDDY! There is no such thing as a NORMAL EMERGENCY BRIEFING, you can have a "standard brief" and "standard calls" created for the particular piece of machinery and paired to the operation:

Some airports will have a different and individual "STANDARD" brief due to local topography:

You asked a Question, you looked in the wrong place, and your brief for the type of machine (SENECA) is wrong, you have some sound advice given in the spirit of Professional guidance, not patronization at all up to this point!

What you do with it is your concern, I only hope that you live long enough to become an old and grumpy pilot!

Yes the computer world is a dangerous place, people can learn to fly? people can learn a "little bit" about a particular field, (PILOT) and have enough to get by, and enough to not know why they see the cows getting very very big very very quickly.

And yes I trained new F/os some years ago under JAR-OPS, and some of the stuff they came aboard with was abysmal, it is creeping into the aviation schools here in NZ where they are interested in training and equipping young people to head off to the airlines with an indoctrination in part as you have stated with your brief, if on the other hand you have a Seneca type rating you should already know what we have pointed out to you.

The problem today is that the aviation schools mind set is towards the airlines, it is increasingly less aimed towards people that want to learn to fly, and work their way up through the industry, IE single, light twins, etc etc.

If you have received professional instruction, I will "in part" apologize to you, If you have received professional instruction, then you need to print off what has been written above, and front your professional institution, your Chief Instructor/ that took your money.

Emergency briefs are ingrained BUDDY, and I know that myself, and the others, that have replied to you here, will have no problem with their automatic "recall" and get their mindset back where it should be, for the type of machine they are befriending again.

YOU DO NOT FORGET, so in summery you have either been instructed wrongly, or you have learn t from the world of cyberspace.

Now you have been PATRONIZED, make no mistake.

Chr's
H/Snort.

[Piltdown Man]

Really?

Is that what you'll really do? I ask, because that looks like a lot of mouth music on take off. You make no mention of the safety take-off speed and what you will do if you have or have not achieved that speed. Will it climb with an unfeathered prop? If not, you may have do something below 400'. And will you always climb straight ahead to 2,100' or this just an illustration?

I don't believe a Sennapod has a V1. It is not appropriate for that aircraft's performance category.

PM

[K.Whyjelly]

, fly the AC on RWY heading, and climb to 2100’

Been a while since I've flown a piston twin but the above statement is a bit of a no hoper is it not?? Remembering the less than sparkling single engine performance one has to hope there are no sticky up hills in the way.

[Pugilistic Animus]

This thread exemplifies my premise that 'new ideas' and and 'new techniques and methods' and 'new ways of doing things' are dangerous for,...many if not all of these 'new ideas' cropping up are OLD ideas,...very old ideas that have killed many,...you and your school are doing wrong

Am I sounding condescending?..Good!

there's another very sad thread also running in this forum,...perhaps this 'new pilot' of today is not a very good trend


Lester

[Pugilistic Animus]

Further

there is Nothing worse than a mishandled FAR 23 twin but any even if there no climb performance a failurecan be just as 'non eventful' as a failure in a piston single,...if you remain within,..and respect...the certification limits of the class of airplane...THAT YOU ARE FLYING, NOT THE ONE YOU WANT TO FLY!!!

PA

[Clandestino]

Originally Posted by Pugilistic Animus

Lester

As if the new breed of pilots would know who "the indestructible Lester" was.

[stefair]

Please let me reiterate: as far as I am concerned, none of the instructors at the schools, where I received my ME and IR training, made mention of V1 nor "don't touch anything below 400'" in the emergency briefing. Yes, I did revalidate my ratings successfully this year but what I don't practice frequently I easily forget I am afraid.

I recently completed my MCC training on a BE200 and was therefore instructed the "no action below 400'" as that aircraft has enough power to climb on losing one engine, plus rudder boost and autofeather. With that new training under my belt I was sitting over the question of how to do an emergency briefing and was unsure as to what I can use from my MCC training. When writing my initial post I had exactly those thoughts that most of you now have but was not certain as I have only very little twin time. So I thought I had better sought advice from the old hands in the biz.

One more point I would like to make is NONE of the schools I was training at was trying to train me up to airline standards. The instruction I received was tailored to flying a little twin, nothing more nothing less.

Since I have this screening coming up I do not want to make an emergency brief which is inappropriate, or even worse, false, as this would not be a good start, would it?

Thanks everyone for your input.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Why not just say it as it is!

QUOTE: Since I have this screening coming up I do not want to make an emergency brief which is inappropriate, or even worse, false, as this would not be a good start, would it?

Okay Mate:
I suggest in creating a good impression would be to point out to the screening examiner, the fact that you are flying a machine outside of any recognized/legal/single engine performance, and I will not compromise with any other briefing other than one suitable for the type of aircraft I am flying.

Hence my (your) actions on take off, I will commence take off from the Threshold, and will be using full length on any available runway ATC issues! Any engine failure, or critical to flt safety event occurring before rotation, we chop the power and keep it straight, using max braking, after rotation it will be my judgment as to landing on any remaining runway, even if we have gear selected up, once at a relatively safe height, or no remaining runway to re-land upon, (my example anything from 150ft to 600ft depending on surrounding obstacles) we will carry out a mayday call, get priority to return to land, if we are visual we stay visual, if we have low cloud and suffer an engine failure IMC at sub 200 ft we make the best of a bad situation asking for radar vectors over the lowest escape route, on the ground the lowest escape route from here looks to be in that direction(point it out), if we are departing a runway with a LLZ, I will use the BC, on the HSI, and have the appropriate Freq dialed up, and on the other nav aids I have the ILS /LLZ dialed up, and if there's a NDB/DME I will use it they are a bloody good thing to familiarize the location of from the threshold, and provide instant situational awareness, if IMC at below 200ft, with all this runway in front, I will close both power levers,lower full flap,drop the gear,(it should still be down) aim for 500ft a min ROD and trim for it,keep the LLZ centered and drift down to our visual/IMC alt and plant it on the runway or in the runway vicinity.

My immediate actions will be!( Check fuel) Mixture, Pitch ,Power levers max forward, Identify the failed engine by DEAD FOOT DEAD ENGINE (in a TWIN) I will call dead foot on the floor, and close the power lever/move the prop lever to feather, confirm prop has feathered, move mixture to cut off, and fuel boost pump off, I will use all or maintain what ever airspeed I have between red line and blue line, and accept any climb or descent we get,

Now this, or the salient points, or other stuff that others may offer that is better than what I have offered, with experience you will get good at it, and I suggest you go through this or whatever brief you use in the briefing room before you get in the machine.

With experience you will learn to use all you have, and the airport has to offer.

Others will no doubt disagree, but its what I use, and unashamedly so.

When on other stuff, turbine with A/Ffr, I brief somewhat different.

When operating out of certain departure airports with unique topographical features, I brief different again.

I dont know it all matey, I still get humbled on occasion.

Chr's
H/Snort
PS: Why not just say whats a good brief for a light twin, I have a screening, and I dont know enough, and want some pointers?

[Pugilistic Animus]

hoggsnortrupert


perfect advice,...just to add,.... Dead foot and Raise the DEAD,...don't forget to bank into the live one as well as about a half ball deflection to improve performcer by reducing total drag from sideslip

[hoggsnortrupert]

LOL LOL:

Thanks Pug, how could I forget?
It was just a test mate, you passed! LOL, now! wheres my beer?.

Chr's
H/Snort.

[411A]

Hence my (your) actions on take off, I will commence take off from the Threshold, and will be using full length on any available runway ATC issues! Any engine failure, or critical to flt safety event occurring before rotation, we chop the power and keep it straight, using max braking, after rotation it will be my judgment as to landing on any remaining runway, even if we have gear selected up, once at a relatively safe height, or no remaining runway to re-land upon, (my example anything from 150ft to 600ft depending on surrounding obstacles) we will carry out a mayday call, get priority to return to land, if we are visual we stay visual, if we have low cloud and suffer an engine failure IMC at sub 200 ft we make the best of a bad situation asking for radar vectors over the lowest escape route, on the ground the lowest escape route from here looks to be in that direction(point it out), if we are departing a runway with a LLZ, I will use the BC, on the HSI, and have the appropriate Freq dialed up, and on the other nav aids I have the ILS /LLZ dialed up, and if there's a NDB/DME I will use it they are a bloody good thing to familiarize the location of from the threshold, and provide instant situational awareness, if IMC at below 200ft, with all this runway in front, I will close both power levers,lower full flap,drop the gear,(it should still be down) aim for 500ft a min ROD and trim for it,keep the LLZ centered and drift down to our visual/IMC alt and plant it on the runway or in the runway vicinity.

My immediate actions will be!( Check fuel) Mixture, Pitch ,Power levers max forward, Identify the failed engine by DEAD FOOT DEAD ENGINE (in a TWIN) I will call dead foot on the floor, and close the power lever/move the prop lever to feather, confirm prop has feathered, move mixture to cut off, and fuel boost pump off, I will use all or maintain what ever airspeed I have between red line and blue line, and accept any climb or descent we get,

You really actually say all that?

I've seen guys in the sim give a shorter 'briefing'...then promptly forget what they are supposed to do when the motion is on...
This must be the 'new' way of flying...talk it to death, and hope no one will notice...

[L337]

I have seen long recitals like that as well. Very impressive feat of memory. Then when it is all over, they have forgotten the huge thunderstorm outside, the windshear, and the pack u/s.

Never forget the big picture.

Stuff like

we chop the power and keep it straight

does my head in. Are you going to "chop" the power and not keep it straight?!

I could go on, but I am old and grumpy. so won't.

[Pugilistic Animus]

It was just a test mate, you passed! LOL, now! wheres my beer?.

while not the indestructible Lester--cuz I have not crashed an airplane yet,..just a car,...I can be called,..perhap better known than the unsinkable Miss Molly Brown,..um,.. perhaps the indefatigable Pugilistic Animus,..now buy me a beer

PA