When will the UK's CAA close?
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When will the UK's CAA close?
Now that European aviation falls under the jurisdiction of an EU regulator (EASA) national aviation regulators have become redundant. The UK's CAA has been reduced to nothing more than a group of taxpayer funded pencil-pushing parasites. This is the sort of expensive taxpayer funded duplication that we have in Canada where the federal government has created departments/ministries that cover areas that fall under provincial jurisdiction. Is the UK (and the rest of Europe) going the same way?
Why should UK taxpayers continue to fund its redundant CAA? Now that it is no longer needed the CAA should be closed down and its employees given the opportunity to find jobs where they can make a genuine contribution to the UK's economy instead of being a drain on it. Is there any movement for this to happen?
Why should UK taxpayers continue to fund its redundant CAA? Now that it is no longer needed the CAA should be closed down and its employees given the opportunity to find jobs where they can make a genuine contribution to the UK's economy instead of being a drain on it. Is there any movement for this to happen?
The UK's CAA has been reduced to nothing more than a group of taxpayer funded pencil-pushing parasites.
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Fees and charges? Do you mean you pay twice? What do you think you pay general taxes for? If the UK is a user-pay society then have income tax, VAT, excise duties, etc. been abolished?
General taxes such as income tax, VAT, corporation tax, excise tax, fuel tax, etc, are paid to fund government services. You have already paid for the CAA through such taxes. Any "fees" are a second payment! It's worse than I expected.
In the February 2005 issue of General Aviation magazine Martin Robinson, Chief Executive of AOPA UK, states: "The UK government now treats taxation income as its own by right, while forcing us to pay extra for any services they bestir themselves to provide." Increasingly avaricious governments use all sorts of terms to try and convince their citizens that they are paying a private sector price in a competitive market, such as they would pay to buy a loaf of bread. It does not matter whether a government and its cronies such as the CAA in the UK (NavCan & Transport Canada in Canada) call it a fee, rate, levy, subscription, duty, impost, charge, excise, price or some other term, the effect is the same. It is money that is compulsorily extracted from the citizen's pocket and the general term for this is TAX. It is in addition to general taxation and as such it is a duplicate payment.
From the comments of the posters above closing the CAA should in theory give Brits a double benefit. They ought to save both the CAA's fees and the portion of general taxes paid for the CAA. This will probably not happen in practice as somebody has to pay for duck houses, moat cleaning and pornography.
Back to the basic issue: now that EASA exists there is no need for the CAA and no need for it to be funded by ANY means. When will it be closed and the savings passed back to the UK taxpayers (general tax) and aviation community (fees)? Don't forget that somebody is funding EASA!
General taxes such as income tax, VAT, corporation tax, excise tax, fuel tax, etc, are paid to fund government services. You have already paid for the CAA through such taxes. Any "fees" are a second payment! It's worse than I expected.
In the February 2005 issue of General Aviation magazine Martin Robinson, Chief Executive of AOPA UK, states: "The UK government now treats taxation income as its own by right, while forcing us to pay extra for any services they bestir themselves to provide." Increasingly avaricious governments use all sorts of terms to try and convince their citizens that they are paying a private sector price in a competitive market, such as they would pay to buy a loaf of bread. It does not matter whether a government and its cronies such as the CAA in the UK (NavCan & Transport Canada in Canada) call it a fee, rate, levy, subscription, duty, impost, charge, excise, price or some other term, the effect is the same. It is money that is compulsorily extracted from the citizen's pocket and the general term for this is TAX. It is in addition to general taxation and as such it is a duplicate payment.
From the comments of the posters above closing the CAA should in theory give Brits a double benefit. They ought to save both the CAA's fees and the portion of general taxes paid for the CAA. This will probably not happen in practice as somebody has to pay for duck houses, moat cleaning and pornography.
Back to the basic issue: now that EASA exists there is no need for the CAA and no need for it to be funded by ANY means. When will it be closed and the savings passed back to the UK taxpayers (general tax) and aviation community (fees)? Don't forget that somebody is funding EASA!
Last edited by Carrier; 18th Nov 2009 at 18:09. Reason: correction
Carrier, I think you're not getting this. The CAA does not take any funding from central government. All of its running costs are met by income from industry and no general taxes are used to pay for its operations, to the best of my knowledge.
The CAA was born of The Ministry of Aviation in the 70's, basically because the government of the day decided that The Ministry should be self-funding. I wonder if The Authority know how much they're despised by those on whom they leech?
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I usually post on the Private Aviation part of the forum....but as I know quite a bit about EASA having dealt with it for nearly 7 years now, here goes. BTW I do not work for the CAA but represent a section of the aviation industry on regulatory matters!
One needs to understand that the scope of EASA's functions are 'limited' (!) to the following, very briefly:
1. Drafting pan-EU implementing rules for original and continuing airworthiness (incl. maintenance), licensing, operations, training establishments etc etc for approval by the Brussels based administrative and political system
2. Certification of aircraft on a pan-EU basis (for which they charge industry)
3. Oversight (through 'standardisation programmes) and audit of member states' implementation of the rules
Whilst this is a large programme it does not cover what member states still have to do as part of a (so-called) integrated EU approach. Thus UK CAA still has many functions at member state level, covering what EASA does not cover. Much of the certification functions of the UK CAA have disappeared in the last few years. So progressively the UK CAA does not draft or set the rules within the government political framework, but it still has to implement someone else's (the EU / EASA) rules.
As to funding, I learnt many years ago when working at a senior level for a UK government agency, that the difference between this side of the pond and the part to the west of us was that west of us, once the taxpayer had paid for something it was then made available to the public for free. Whereas this side of the pond once the taxpayer has paid his taxes the job of government is to find every opportunity for charging the consumer / public to pay (again) for the service. A big philosophical difference. The UK CAA does not get a look in on the first part of that - tax payers' money.
Maybe it has something to do with ambitious and some would say unnecessary flagship programmes of free-spending governments over here.
But there we are.
One needs to understand that the scope of EASA's functions are 'limited' (!) to the following, very briefly:
1. Drafting pan-EU implementing rules for original and continuing airworthiness (incl. maintenance), licensing, operations, training establishments etc etc for approval by the Brussels based administrative and political system
2. Certification of aircraft on a pan-EU basis (for which they charge industry)
3. Oversight (through 'standardisation programmes) and audit of member states' implementation of the rules
Whilst this is a large programme it does not cover what member states still have to do as part of a (so-called) integrated EU approach. Thus UK CAA still has many functions at member state level, covering what EASA does not cover. Much of the certification functions of the UK CAA have disappeared in the last few years. So progressively the UK CAA does not draft or set the rules within the government political framework, but it still has to implement someone else's (the EU / EASA) rules.
As to funding, I learnt many years ago when working at a senior level for a UK government agency, that the difference between this side of the pond and the part to the west of us was that west of us, once the taxpayer had paid for something it was then made available to the public for free. Whereas this side of the pond once the taxpayer has paid his taxes the job of government is to find every opportunity for charging the consumer / public to pay (again) for the service. A big philosophical difference. The UK CAA does not get a look in on the first part of that - tax payers' money.
Maybe it has something to do with ambitious and some would say unnecessary flagship programmes of free-spending governments over here.
But there we are.
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Although I agree that CAA charges are pure extortion, I don't think they would reduce under a pan-European regulator. Add in the current, and probable long term, weakness of the pound against the euro (guess what they would charge in), and I think we would be moaning even more.
Just think how much a beer is in euroland these days for us impoverished Brits.
Just think how much a beer is in euroland these days for us impoverished Brits.
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Dave Roberts speak with straight tongue - he wise man
Carrier speak before brain engaged - he uneducated man
EASA's web site explains it all, though even I admit it's not user friendly.
Tell us Carrier, what rattled your cage to prompt your intemperate outburst?
Sir George Cayley
Carrier speak before brain engaged - he uneducated man
EASA's web site explains it all, though even I admit it's not user friendly.
Tell us Carrier, what rattled your cage to prompt your intemperate outburst?
Sir George Cayley
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EASA relies upon each countries 'national authority' to promote its mandates in their individual territories.
That is where the wheel falls off the wagon. The CAA take EASA and EU requirements literally where other 'minor' European states just pay lip service to the requirements.
We are bogged down in red tape...everyone else is saying 'yeah OK' and doing nothing.
That is where the wheel falls off the wagon. The CAA take EASA and EU requirements literally where other 'minor' European states just pay lip service to the requirements.
We are bogged down in red tape...everyone else is saying 'yeah OK' and doing nothing.
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And let us not forget that a proportion of the obscene fees paid by industry for less and less effective service is diverted to providing the working capital operation of "CAA International", an organisation which competes with the very people who pay the charges, and whose working capital comes from their shareholders.
It is quite galling to be confronted with CAA International's glossy brochures and unlimited funds for marketing when they are competing directly for business with the companies that fund them.
The CAA's fee-payers will wish to know that CAA International's staff do not suffer when travelling; those I have observed are strangers to the back of the aeroplane where the fee payers lurk. This is a matter of entitlement, of course; very important to Civil Servants, even when playing at business with other people's money.
Apart from CAAI, how does the CAA use their funds? Readers of CHIRP will know that the money is not spent on running an efficient licensing service; this is now so bad that it's a Human Factors issue of some magnitude.
What productive activities, exactly, are carried on in Kingsway and Gatwick? "Safety" regulation is now a matter of applying EASA rules by ticking boxes and avoiding responsibility. Blatant safety infringements are allowed to continue if the culprit has enough clout. Economic regulation is toothless and has been for a long time. Its advice to Government is ignored, usually because its a meaningless fudge.
So what is the CAA for, precisely?
It is quite galling to be confronted with CAA International's glossy brochures and unlimited funds for marketing when they are competing directly for business with the companies that fund them.
The CAA's fee-payers will wish to know that CAA International's staff do not suffer when travelling; those I have observed are strangers to the back of the aeroplane where the fee payers lurk. This is a matter of entitlement, of course; very important to Civil Servants, even when playing at business with other people's money.
Apart from CAAI, how does the CAA use their funds? Readers of CHIRP will know that the money is not spent on running an efficient licensing service; this is now so bad that it's a Human Factors issue of some magnitude.
What productive activities, exactly, are carried on in Kingsway and Gatwick? "Safety" regulation is now a matter of applying EASA rules by ticking boxes and avoiding responsibility. Blatant safety infringements are allowed to continue if the culprit has enough clout. Economic regulation is toothless and has been for a long time. Its advice to Government is ignored, usually because its a meaningless fudge.
So what is the CAA for, precisely?
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As a licensed engineer I have had my issues with the UK CAA, but I understand that they are not funded by the UK taxpayer, but by the fees that they charge.
I understand that, uniquely among aviation regulators, the CAA is required by UK Goverment to make a 6% profit ('return against investment') including the cost of the hanging gardens of Gatwick.
The last time I visisted, it was so occupied they could easily operate out of a couple of Portacabins in a lower cost part of UK, solving their liquidity and our cost problems at a stroke.
Their plea to EASA to put into place rules to prevent 'regulatory shopping' fell on deaf ears. I suspect their days in the present form are numbered as they become unaffordable - remind me of the cost of an IR test in (a) UK and (b) Belgium?
The last time I visisted, it was so occupied they could easily operate out of a couple of Portacabins in a lower cost part of UK, solving their liquidity and our cost problems at a stroke.
Their plea to EASA to put into place rules to prevent 'regulatory shopping' fell on deaf ears. I suspect their days in the present form are numbered as they become unaffordable - remind me of the cost of an IR test in (a) UK and (b) Belgium?