747-200F down in Bogota ?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: I live like a gypsy.
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So when is Kalitta going to start passenger operations?
I am very surprised at the philosophical tone of this thread. Imagine the fuss if 800 people had been written off in these two crashes? As it is two innocents were killed in their sleep, when one of these flying scrapyards crashed.
Just look at the build dates of most of his fleet? Unbelievable that "bottom feeders" like Kalitta, Evergreen, MK and others are so poorly regulated. Do you remember the Evergreen 747 which lost power over London and was directed over huge population centres to Heathrow? Scandalous irresponsible judgements by ATC and the pilots of that crippled jet.
Clearly aircraft that are over 30 years old cannot put up with the stresses of constant maximum performance operations. Hopefully the current fuel prices will see them squeezed out of business for everyone's sake.
I am very surprised at the philosophical tone of this thread. Imagine the fuss if 800 people had been written off in these two crashes? As it is two innocents were killed in their sleep, when one of these flying scrapyards crashed.
Just look at the build dates of most of his fleet? Unbelievable that "bottom feeders" like Kalitta, Evergreen, MK and others are so poorly regulated. Do you remember the Evergreen 747 which lost power over London and was directed over huge population centres to Heathrow? Scandalous irresponsible judgements by ATC and the pilots of that crippled jet.
Clearly aircraft that are over 30 years old cannot put up with the stresses of constant maximum performance operations. Hopefully the current fuel prices will see them squeezed out of business for everyone's sake.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Poof, how would you regulate these bread and butter players to other than the World standards with which they are subjected to now? . . . You will require considerably more education on the subject to answer intelligently, and if / when this intelligence is acquired, you will then be surprised at your conclusion.
- - - -
With regards to a double hull loss, will Kalitta's AMC contracts automatically be terminated / in jeopardy? If so, that would be tragic.
- - - -
With regards to a double hull loss, will Kalitta's AMC contracts automatically be terminated / in jeopardy? If so, that would be tragic.
Last edited by L-38; 11th Jul 2008 at 18:42.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting trivia - remember that years ago - Boeing had initially created the B-747sp (hot rod) variation per Braniff request, so that they could comfortably operate into / out of Bogotá and Quito.
SkyGod
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
1 Post
Boeing had initially created the B-747sp (hot rod) variation per Braniff request, so that they could comfortably operate into / out of Bogotá and Quito.
I thought the SP was a super long-haul version with 18 hours fuel...?
I flew -200s in and out of Quito many times since 2005. Usually approached at night @ max -landing weight..No problems, but one has to be gentle on the brakes, otherwise they heat up and blow tires...Not good.
Many thanks for the responses that identified the apparant debris field location.
Somebody was nice enough to send me an unedited off air video clip confirming the location. See image below
The video clip had lots of additional information in the naration unfortunately I don't have language skills to interpret.
It does appear that the aircraft struck the house at the beginning of the debris field.
I wonder if the locals can add any more information that has been released by the authorities rleative to ATC transmissions or crew statements.
Somebody was nice enough to send me an unedited off air video clip confirming the location. See image below
The video clip had lots of additional information in the naration unfortunately I don't have language skills to interpret.
It does appear that the aircraft struck the house at the beginning of the debris field.
I wonder if the locals can add any more information that has been released by the authorities rleative to ATC transmissions or crew statements.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you can't fly, land as best you can.
From the visuals, I suggest the crew did their best to get the airframe, the cargo and themselves out of flight as best they could. These latest images suggest they worked hard on this task.
d
d
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA., USA
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
3rd Hull loss?
Recently spoke to a Kalitta crew and was told of a third hull loss while in maintenance. Something about a crane holding the empennage and when maintenance personnel could not remove the last bolt (as it was binding) decided to cut the bolt which caused the main body to separate and the crane to topple over onto the aircraft causing extensive damage to the aircraft, beyond economic repair.
Again, this was told to me by a Kalitta crew.
Regards,
bpp
Again, this was told to me by a Kalitta crew.
Regards,
bpp
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unbelievable that "bottom feeders" like Kalitta, Evergreen, MK and others are so poorly regulated.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
7 Posts
Just look at the build dates of most of his fleet? Unbelievable that "bottom feeders" like Kalitta, Evergreen, MK and others are so poorly regulated. Do you remember the Evergreen 747 which lost power over London...
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hairy situation
Having flown flowers out of Bogota over a hundred times in the Classic I am not surprised to see on crash after take-off like this one.
Everything is balls to the walls and every limit is reached and sometimes exceeded, all of that at high elevation and at night when the crews are dog-tired and should be in bed.
The engine out procedure is confusing at best, and don't work too good as some of the beacons needed to fly the procedure are out of service or too weak to pick up.
Even with 4 engines turning we had a terrain warning during clean-up after a BOG departure.
A company I worked for lost a 747-200 in MDE as the Nr. 1 engine exploded right at V1 and the crew did not get the airplane stopped.
YouTube - Tradewinds Boeing 747 Rejected Takeoff Crash
Turns out Kallitta had overhauled the engines we used on the classics.
Perhaps there is a trend here, Brussels and all...?
Today 06:43
Everything is balls to the walls and every limit is reached and sometimes exceeded, all of that at high elevation and at night when the crews are dog-tired and should be in bed.
The engine out procedure is confusing at best, and don't work too good as some of the beacons needed to fly the procedure are out of service or too weak to pick up.
Even with 4 engines turning we had a terrain warning during clean-up after a BOG departure.
A company I worked for lost a 747-200 in MDE as the Nr. 1 engine exploded right at V1 and the crew did not get the airplane stopped.
YouTube - Tradewinds Boeing 747 Rejected Takeoff Crash
Turns out Kallitta had overhauled the engines we used on the classics.
Perhaps there is a trend here, Brussels and all...?
Today 06:43
I've got to tell you....
Tower Dog, that sounds like one of the most difficult segments in which to have to operate. Second leg of the night.... Correct me if I'm wrong: If it's a heavy departure (say company wants to tanker some fuel) you've gotta be considering a bleeds-off T/O which means taking off unpressurized if the APU is weak or inop, right?: cleaning up at over 10,000 feet? (ICAO noise abatement? 3K AGL above?) , which.... does that mean masks on?
Nothing worse than trying to do complicated procedures in the dark with oxy masks on, imho. Add an engine fire warning and now you have to ditch the SID and switch to the eng out procedure in mountains when all you can hear is people breathing on speaker, mic's squealing, ADF's not pointing right..... Ugh.
The next thing you know, the memory procedures are completed for fire and the machine starts going downhill at full power on the remaining three. No way below 250kts to bring the start lever/switch back up and have it relight........ so the S/O would reach up and try to open the start valve on the one he just shut down.... did he remember to re-open some bleeds back there so he can do a crossbleed start and get that motor turning again? Did he remember to reset the overhead fire switch/handle?
Sounds worse than a nightmare from the "oh-dark-thirty" sim session.
The above is all just Hypothetical from sim experiences and in no way is meant to imply that's what happened in Bogota. But here, let me ding the objection call button for you.....
Machaca;
Agree. I think the lake to the east of the crash-site may settle it, but this too, is a guess...:
Lomapaseo - After reviewing several local newspaper and tv reports, I put it about 6 to 7 km WNW of your estimate, on the Casa Blanca farm (just outside of Madrid - Google Maps has it as La Pincha) between highway 50 and the Hacienda .
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NOT trying to be a tabloid journalist here, but it certainly looks, as Daikilo, BigHitDH and lomopaseo say, as if the crew did their very best to place the crash in the least damaging place. As it was dark, I do not know how they managed it so well, but those pictures certainly suggest it and all praise to the pilots for that.
Any news on the injured and recovery? The pics of the nose/cockpit look pretty awful.
Any news on the injured and recovery? The pics of the nose/cockpit look pretty awful.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
exRAF,
Yes I remember that now... Thanks RAF; was thinking of another machine.
Can you look in your book sometime and tell me if there is a high altitude t/o procedure and charts for t/o with engine Bleeds Off? One of these machines I used to fly we did that.....
If you can find it, I'll do the next engine readings for you. Promise
break, break
PJ2,
Whoops, had it upside down there, PJ2 I'll buy that location if you'll put your red arrow on the other side of the lake and spin it 180 degrees. I believe maybe he clipped the trees and wires by the dam.
What do you think?
pac
Yes I remember that now... Thanks RAF; was thinking of another machine.
Can you look in your book sometime and tell me if there is a high altitude t/o procedure and charts for t/o with engine Bleeds Off? One of these machines I used to fly we did that.....
If you can find it, I'll do the next engine readings for you. Promise
break, break
PJ2,
Whoops, had it upside down there, PJ2 I'll buy that location if you'll put your red arrow on the other side of the lake and spin it 180 degrees. I believe maybe he clipped the trees and wires by the dam.
What do you think?
pac
Last edited by pacplyer; 12th Jul 2008 at 08:29.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: My Stringy Brane
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PJ2 - very close, but wrong direction:
They clipped power lines crossing the highway and it appears from Lomapaseo's vidcaps they collected trees along the stream at the corner of the smaller "bent" pond. The berm 2/3 ways down the impact path likely caused the nose section crush and separation.
They clipped power lines crossing the highway and it appears from Lomapaseo's vidcaps they collected trees along the stream at the corner of the smaller "bent" pond. The berm 2/3 ways down the impact path likely caused the nose section crush and separation.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Machaca,
you beat me to it. It's close to the gas station coordinates and shows the damp earthen berm (looks like a dry flood pond) that put all that dirt and grass in the fan section perhaps causing the sudden stop of the N1 disc that is so mysterious.
They did a helll of a job keeping control with an outboard engine out if that is the case.
you beat me to it. It's close to the gas station coordinates and shows the damp earthen berm (looks like a dry flood pond) that put all that dirt and grass in the fan section perhaps causing the sudden stop of the N1 disc that is so mysterious.
They did a helll of a job keeping control with an outboard engine out if that is the case.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Subterranea
Age: 70
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TwoOneFour:
On my Google-Earth the coordinates for the latest picture posted by Machaca are 4.43'24, 74.15'11 at the building structure the aircraft perceivably hit.
Green-dot
Sorry - I don't see it.
Green-dot
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Subterranea
Age: 70
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Comparing Iomapaseo's images of the debris field in post #153 with Machaca's Google Earth image, that lake must have had quite some alterations since the Google Earth picture was taken? A large part of the lake (parallel to the debris field) is similar but it now "bends" in the opposite direction and covers considerably less area when viewing the images in post #153.
Green-dot
Green-dot
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Subtle changes are common with Googleearth as some of the sat shots are old. But try rotating it upside down. Then approach over the damn.
Jump across the lake. It looks like a green swampy field; sat shot probably taken when it had tall green grass growth.
better?
Jump across the lake. It looks like a green swampy field; sat shot probably taken when it had tall green grass growth.
better?
Last edited by pacplyer; 12th Jul 2008 at 13:25.