SLF Question: Are We Safe?
Sorry your honour, I will couch my phraseology differently.
The 99.99% figure is as you say was "plucked out of the air"
It is very loosely based however on my long involvement with the air travel industry from a disconnected, fly on the wall perspective.
The single biggest gripes that I hear, are complaints based on the mis-information and dis-information which are dispensed when delays occur.
This information, based on my wide experience, is never dispensed by those on the flightdeck, but by the lower paid lackies in the terminal building, the canon fodder if you like.
This is standard practice. If you do not know this, then you should avail yourself of the facts
This of course, is stating the obvious
By front of house, I clearly mean the passenger compartment, where levels of service have plummeted over the last few years. It has now reached a stage where it is almost intolerable. This covers a broad range of scheduled and charter airlines.
The passenger, in ever increasing cases, over the broad range, is treated as a pain in the butt rather than a paying client.
Complacency is rife.
My concern is that this very obvious complacency, may be spreading unseen all the way back to aircraft maintainance and safety.
The bean counters are king and the shareholders are their knights.
The flying public are now quite clearly the serfs.
The 99.99% figure is as you say was "plucked out of the air"
It is very loosely based however on my long involvement with the air travel industry from a disconnected, fly on the wall perspective.
The single biggest gripes that I hear, are complaints based on the mis-information and dis-information which are dispensed when delays occur.
This information, based on my wide experience, is never dispensed by those on the flightdeck, but by the lower paid lackies in the terminal building, the canon fodder if you like.
This is standard practice. If you do not know this, then you should avail yourself of the facts
This of course, is stating the obvious
By front of house, I clearly mean the passenger compartment, where levels of service have plummeted over the last few years. It has now reached a stage where it is almost intolerable. This covers a broad range of scheduled and charter airlines.
The passenger, in ever increasing cases, over the broad range, is treated as a pain in the butt rather than a paying client.
Complacency is rife.
My concern is that this very obvious complacency, may be spreading unseen all the way back to aircraft maintainance and safety.
The bean counters are king and the shareholders are their knights.
The flying public are now quite clearly the serfs.
A Runyonesque Character
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The South of France ... Not
Age: 74
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rottenray,
Flyingis the safest form of transport there is. If you were unlucky enough to suffer a very minor incident on a plane, chances are that same incident on a bus or a train would have been a lot more likely and a lot more serious.
But, 'if it's got your name written on it', too bad, that's fate my friend.
If you go to board an aircraft and it has 'Rottenray' painted on the nose, turn back, walk away, live to fly another day.
Flyingis the safest form of transport there is. If you were unlucky enough to suffer a very minor incident on a plane, chances are that same incident on a bus or a train would have been a lot more likely and a lot more serious.
But, 'if it's got your name written on it', too bad, that's fate my friend.
If you go to board an aircraft and it has 'Rottenray' painted on the nose, turn back, walk away, live to fly another day.
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps people are over analysing the original poster's question a bit...s/he was only essentially asking 'is commercial air transport safe?' which may sound silly to many on here but is a perfectly valid question to ask.
As SLF I feel perfectly safe on board all the major western carriers and most from the rest of the world as well.
And rest assurred that if and when commercial air travel ceases to be safe...you'll hear it first on PPRuNe.
As SLF I feel perfectly safe on board all the major western carriers and most from the rest of the world as well.
And rest assurred that if and when commercial air travel ceases to be safe...you'll hear it first on PPRuNe.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Egcc
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but by the lower paid lackies in the terminal building
Don't forget the staff in the terminal are more times than not, not airline employees but agency staff. They get the information they pass on to passengers third hand. It does not surprise me that it is often inaccurate, but I agree that airlines should concentrate on this link in the information chain as it may well reflect badly on them. However, I very much doubt that they blatantly lie. I would suspect they don't have accurate details and perhaps try to fill in the gaps (inappropriately) themselves. There is a difference.
levels of service have plummeted over the last few years. It has now reached a stage where it is almost intolerable
My concern is that this very obvious complacency, may be spreading unseen all the way back to aircraft maintainance and safety.
disconnected, fly on the wall perspective
The bean counters are king and the shareholders are their knights
So El Grifo, if you think the service is crap, pick another carrier. Better still, write to the Managing Director and TELL him what is wrong with his airline whilst you go off to the competition. If enough passengers did this the service would change. If it didn't the company would go bust. As long as a company keeps its load factor then in its eyes it is providing what the customer wants. Pay more for the better service elsewhere is the key.
PP
As I stated earlier in the thread, it is not just a simple case of chosing another airline. In my experience, the problem of plummeting standards is industry wide.
My worst experiences recently have been with BA, Qatar, Air Jamaica and Air Europa (long haul only, short haul by contrast is pretty good)
I used to send letters of complaint and on occasions have complained quietly and civily to pursers on board.
The valuable time and energy taken on this normally, drawn out and convoluted process, usually amounts to time wasted. One gets shuffled around and redirected to department after department, it often appears to be part of the strategy.
One problem relating to a situation regarding an Iberia longhaul flight took 8 months and over 23 emails and letters to resolve. The only reason it was resolved was due to my grim determination that it would be resolved.
As for your suggerstion that I "pay more for a better service" I check which airline is flying the route I require to take and I book my seats. I normally expect to pay around £500 - £600 for the routes I have to fly which is broadly the same as I have been paying over the last few years.
The big difference is what I recieve for my money.
That difference usually amounts to indifference.
PS. Despite having added Air Jamaica to my list of "indifferent" airlines, I have to say that after "losing" a case full of valuable camera gear between HAV and MBJ, but only after being threatened but repercussions from my client Thomas Cook, they agreed to stump up for replacements.
That was in November however, I have been advised to expect payment to reach my bank by 30th April at the earliest !!
There is no escaping facts, what used to be a pleasant form of transport for millions and millions of people has now turned into something more akin to the transportation of livestock.
I starts when you draw up to the airport and does not finsh until you throw your bags into the taxi at the other end.
.
My worst experiences recently have been with BA, Qatar, Air Jamaica and Air Europa (long haul only, short haul by contrast is pretty good)
I used to send letters of complaint and on occasions have complained quietly and civily to pursers on board.
The valuable time and energy taken on this normally, drawn out and convoluted process, usually amounts to time wasted. One gets shuffled around and redirected to department after department, it often appears to be part of the strategy.
One problem relating to a situation regarding an Iberia longhaul flight took 8 months and over 23 emails and letters to resolve. The only reason it was resolved was due to my grim determination that it would be resolved.
As for your suggerstion that I "pay more for a better service" I check which airline is flying the route I require to take and I book my seats. I normally expect to pay around £500 - £600 for the routes I have to fly which is broadly the same as I have been paying over the last few years.
The big difference is what I recieve for my money.
That difference usually amounts to indifference.
PS. Despite having added Air Jamaica to my list of "indifferent" airlines, I have to say that after "losing" a case full of valuable camera gear between HAV and MBJ, but only after being threatened but repercussions from my client Thomas Cook, they agreed to stump up for replacements.
That was in November however, I have been advised to expect payment to reach my bank by 30th April at the earliest !!
There is no escaping facts, what used to be a pleasant form of transport for millions and millions of people has now turned into something more akin to the transportation of livestock.
I starts when you draw up to the airport and does not finsh until you throw your bags into the taxi at the other end.
.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: US
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Safety & stuff
Hee hee. Love the way simple questions get wildly complex answers, and wild eyed people angrily trading blows over...what...a website? 
Anyway, just responding to a couple of earlier aspects of the thread:
Speaking pure statistics, it's important to make a distinction between different SORTS of flying. Generally speaking, commercial flying is far safer than private flying, and commercial AIRLINE flying much safer again. This is often confused by private pilots, who say that the flying they do is safer than driving (eg the comment above about accidents in the US, rich/dumb pilots, etc etc. By a factor of about 5, on a time basis, it isn't - actually private flying is much more dangerous than driving, in terms of hours exposed to risk. But you get there quicker too, so less TIME exposed to higher RISK, which lowers the bald numbers a little bit.) Whereas you are safer in a 747, generally speaking, than you are ANYWHERE - including your home, where you could drown in the bath, be beaten up by your spouse, etc etc. A multi engine jet flown by a somewhat reputable airline? IFR. Human and mechanical redundancy. SOPs. Highly trained crews, even at the lowest levels. (Yes, we could quibble, but they ARE trained, and I imagine competent) Same route, day after day. Professional dispatchers. Safe enough for ME - which, as various posters have pointed out, is a subjective decision anyway. Actually, subjectively, I'd get into ANY commercial flying machine, but then my risk tolerance is pretty high - if you were more conservative, I would stay out of older pistons, most helicopters, single engine stuff, etc etc etc, but recognise it's mainly subjective....and I think you could still get into any airline jet in the world without being too worried. There are a number of airlines with a less than stellar safety record, but even their records would crunch down, if you did the numbers, to an overwhelming likelihood of making it on any particular flight...
And it's also important to make a distinction between actual safety, and minor glitches/public relations. ie chance of aircraft crashing, and chance of being delayed, annoyed, lied to, whatever. I personally think the latter is getting worse, and has done for several years, and I do believe that institutionalised lying is pretty common - I mean, who HASN'T heard XXX, please hurry to gate XXX, your aircraft has now boarded and is ready to go, and you run to get there, and there's a huge line? - but the reason it makes airline staff angry if you point it out is that they don't consider it lying - just appropriate PR. Whatever floats your boat. I think, and have observed, that some airline staff sometimes say things that don't seem to mesh with my observation of events, but I choose not to get upset about it, cos I can't control it. (I could give other examples, but this isn't really what the thread's about...) Ditto delays, etc etc. But to return, full circle, you might get there late, you might be searched up the wazoo, you might be unhappy with the airline, you might be sore from being scrunched up so much in 51F....but you almost certainly WILL get there, by air. Genuine safety problems with a proper, kosher, Western airline? Fuggetaboutit
Now I do have this kick-ass machine that I get around in myself, to avoid the airlines! 200 knots, climbs at 3500 fpm, short-strip, happy upside down....inflight catering sucks though, and it is most certainly NOT safe. Cool though. Maybe we should have a thread on the COOLEST way to fly!
Anyway, just responding to a couple of earlier aspects of the thread:Speaking pure statistics, it's important to make a distinction between different SORTS of flying. Generally speaking, commercial flying is far safer than private flying, and commercial AIRLINE flying much safer again. This is often confused by private pilots, who say that the flying they do is safer than driving (eg the comment above about accidents in the US, rich/dumb pilots, etc etc. By a factor of about 5, on a time basis, it isn't - actually private flying is much more dangerous than driving, in terms of hours exposed to risk. But you get there quicker too, so less TIME exposed to higher RISK, which lowers the bald numbers a little bit.) Whereas you are safer in a 747, generally speaking, than you are ANYWHERE - including your home, where you could drown in the bath, be beaten up by your spouse, etc etc. A multi engine jet flown by a somewhat reputable airline? IFR. Human and mechanical redundancy. SOPs. Highly trained crews, even at the lowest levels. (Yes, we could quibble, but they ARE trained, and I imagine competent) Same route, day after day. Professional dispatchers. Safe enough for ME - which, as various posters have pointed out, is a subjective decision anyway. Actually, subjectively, I'd get into ANY commercial flying machine, but then my risk tolerance is pretty high - if you were more conservative, I would stay out of older pistons, most helicopters, single engine stuff, etc etc etc, but recognise it's mainly subjective....and I think you could still get into any airline jet in the world without being too worried. There are a number of airlines with a less than stellar safety record, but even their records would crunch down, if you did the numbers, to an overwhelming likelihood of making it on any particular flight...
And it's also important to make a distinction between actual safety, and minor glitches/public relations. ie chance of aircraft crashing, and chance of being delayed, annoyed, lied to, whatever. I personally think the latter is getting worse, and has done for several years, and I do believe that institutionalised lying is pretty common - I mean, who HASN'T heard XXX, please hurry to gate XXX, your aircraft has now boarded and is ready to go, and you run to get there, and there's a huge line? - but the reason it makes airline staff angry if you point it out is that they don't consider it lying - just appropriate PR. Whatever floats your boat. I think, and have observed, that some airline staff sometimes say things that don't seem to mesh with my observation of events, but I choose not to get upset about it, cos I can't control it. (I could give other examples, but this isn't really what the thread's about...) Ditto delays, etc etc. But to return, full circle, you might get there late, you might be searched up the wazoo, you might be unhappy with the airline, you might be sore from being scrunched up so much in 51F....but you almost certainly WILL get there, by air. Genuine safety problems with a proper, kosher, Western airline? Fuggetaboutit
Now I do have this kick-ass machine that I get around in myself, to avoid the airlines! 200 knots, climbs at 3500 fpm, short-strip, happy upside down....inflight catering sucks though, and it is most certainly NOT safe. Cool though. Maybe we should have a thread on the COOLEST way to fly!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are we safe?
A reasonable question, rottenray, but consider...
I was asked this very same question some years ago, while flying a group of punters down to the Med, and as the aeroplane was a TriStar, I mentioned that, altho the big three engine Lockheed was about the safest aeroplane they could travel on...if I, as the Commander, got my backside on the ground safely, all the 362 passengers in the back would be just fine...and further, as I had been doing this job for over thirty years, there would be no doubt whatsoever as to the satisfactory outcome.
Another question came up as well.
One of the passengers asked why were were passing the aeroplane below, as it seemed to be much slower.
The answer of course...this aeroplane is made in America, with proper RollsRoyce engines, naturally.
Ahhh, Lockheed, the very finest.
If any doubt...ask the guys that flew this very fine aeroplane.
I was asked this very same question some years ago, while flying a group of punters down to the Med, and as the aeroplane was a TriStar, I mentioned that, altho the big three engine Lockheed was about the safest aeroplane they could travel on...if I, as the Commander, got my backside on the ground safely, all the 362 passengers in the back would be just fine...and further, as I had been doing this job for over thirty years, there would be no doubt whatsoever as to the satisfactory outcome.
Another question came up as well.
One of the passengers asked why were were passing the aeroplane below, as it seemed to be much slower.
The answer of course...this aeroplane is made in America, with proper RollsRoyce engines, naturally.
Ahhh, Lockheed, the very finest.
If any doubt...ask the guys that flew this very fine aeroplane.
