Shutting engines down during lengthy outbound ground delays
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Shutting engines down during lengthy outbound ground delays
What companies allow the shutting down of an engine during extended delays on the gorund before departure? I was stuck for an hour at LHR waiting for take off a couple of weeks ago and several people were asking the tower if they could shut an engine down, and one guy even negociated shutting both down. My company do not allow it except after landing. If you use it what procedures are in place to make sure everything is in order again before take off?
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Our procedures in 747
We - in Argentina - do shut down the 2 inboard engines (747) when in the queue for takeoff, notoriously at JFK and ORD... records show (sometimes) up to 90 minutes from block time to takeoff...
xxx
Saves fuel, right... And taxiing with 2 engines is rarely a problem even for a heavy 747. We use in outboards because of Boeing procedures, where EDPs (of the outboard engines) - and any of the 4 ADPs can provide hydraulic pressure to steering and brake system.
xxx
We restart the inboards when "about" nš 3 in line to line-up for departure, so giving some 3 minutes for the engines to be well stable, and we "again" do a new "taxi-before takeoff check-list to ascertain that the aircraft is properly configured, as an example, taxi flaps-up in snow/ice conditions on taxiways.
xxx
We also keep the APU running for air conditioning, not necessarily for electrical power, although that alternative is up to the crew. Our A-340 crews do same with that fleet - two engines taxi-out.
xxx
There has never been a problem with such procedure. Some years ago, one plane at ORD could not start one of the inboards, forcing them to return to the ramp, so we now "start" all 4 engines initially, then shut inboards when established on taxiways. In case one start solenoid is faulty, no need to tell you that we do then a manual start, and let that engine run through the entire taxi time.
xxx
With a smile, I shall state that we say that OPEC is responsible for this procedure.
xxx
And thereafter, we do "happy contrails" -
xxx
Saves fuel, right... And taxiing with 2 engines is rarely a problem even for a heavy 747. We use in outboards because of Boeing procedures, where EDPs (of the outboard engines) - and any of the 4 ADPs can provide hydraulic pressure to steering and brake system.
xxx
We restart the inboards when "about" nš 3 in line to line-up for departure, so giving some 3 minutes for the engines to be well stable, and we "again" do a new "taxi-before takeoff check-list to ascertain that the aircraft is properly configured, as an example, taxi flaps-up in snow/ice conditions on taxiways.
xxx
We also keep the APU running for air conditioning, not necessarily for electrical power, although that alternative is up to the crew. Our A-340 crews do same with that fleet - two engines taxi-out.
xxx
There has never been a problem with such procedure. Some years ago, one plane at ORD could not start one of the inboards, forcing them to return to the ramp, so we now "start" all 4 engines initially, then shut inboards when established on taxiways. In case one start solenoid is faulty, no need to tell you that we do then a manual start, and let that engine run through the entire taxi time.
xxx
With a smile, I shall state that we say that OPEC is responsible for this procedure.
xxx
And thereafter, we do "happy contrails" -
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During bad weather in JFK, shut-down 12 times and started-up 13 times! The 12th shut-down was back on the gate for more fuel - over 3 hours on the taxiways! Then they introduced 'gate-hold procedures' which sometimes means you have to wait on the taxiway inbound, as your gate is occupied by an aircraft with a 'gate-hold' delay!
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A far better idea of course is to begin taxi with the minimum engines operating...doing this for quite some time, works good.
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Of course, helps if you are telepathic and actually know there is going to be a delay...
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Yeah, what I was actually talking about was when you taxi out, as I did at Heathrow the other week, no delays during push but while you are taxiing one aircraft blocks the landing runway and a pan comes in on the other. ATC aren't psychic either.
Thanks, BelArgUSA for actually answering the question.
Thanks, BelArgUSA for actually answering the question.
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"...several people were asking the tower if they could shut an engine down, and one guy even negociated shutting both down."
My experience level and our collective crew judgement is sufficient to decide if and when and how many motors to shut down, and when to restart them in due time while in a long queue.
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Not aware of a requirement of having to "ask" or to "negotiate" with the tower if one could shut down an engine or two.
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A couple of years ago we shut down all four (B747-200) engines and parked it on the out-of-service runway for some 50 minutes.
I still arn't sure what was the reason for the delay - we received the normal airways clearance prior to push and start, did all that, then when we stopped at the exit to the apron, to change freq and get further taxi clearance, we were told there was no flight plan in the system for us!
The only fix they would accept was for our company rep to submit another plan!
Our 'planned' flight was a longish one, some 11 hours, so we either had to shut down all four or return to the gate for more fuel. Not wanting to incurr another round of charges and delays, we requested and got a clearance to use the closed runway as a parking spot.
We also taxied on 2 and restarted the other 2 when we got close enough to the head of the departure line.
As mentioned earlier, we simply repeated the 'after starts' when all 4 were up and running, to confirm all was well, but then we have a Flight Engineer!!
Interesting evening,
Cheers...FD...
I still arn't sure what was the reason for the delay - we received the normal airways clearance prior to push and start, did all that, then when we stopped at the exit to the apron, to change freq and get further taxi clearance, we were told there was no flight plan in the system for us!
The only fix they would accept was for our company rep to submit another plan!
Our 'planned' flight was a longish one, some 11 hours, so we either had to shut down all four or return to the gate for more fuel. Not wanting to incurr another round of charges and delays, we requested and got a clearance to use the closed runway as a parking spot.
We also taxied on 2 and restarted the other 2 when we got close enough to the head of the departure line.
As mentioned earlier, we simply repeated the 'after starts' when all 4 were up and running, to confirm all was well, but then we have a Flight Engineer!!
Interesting evening,
Cheers...FD...
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Personally I would like someone on the ground for the restart to monitor for jet pipe fires.
I guess an FO could watch from a back window, in touch on the interphone.
I guess an FO could watch from a back window, in touch on the interphone.
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We shut down engines all the time when on a delay...and the only time we would tell the tower was if we were going to shutdown all the engines and just keep the APU up.
On each airplane that I engineered on, C-130/B727/L1011/DC-8 we had an abbreviated before engine starting checklist... normal check list just the items were marked.
As far as someone watching your tail pipe...the guy stuck inline right behind you would let you know if you were on fire.
Greg
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On each airplane that I engineered on, C-130/B727/L1011/DC-8 we had an abbreviated before engine starting checklist... normal check list just the items were marked.
As far as someone watching your tail pipe...the guy stuck inline right behind you would let you know if you were on fire.
Greg
********************************
