ryanair memo!!every help welcome!!
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ryanair memo!!every help welcome!!
hello every body!!
im a young atc working in sw france,and my end-of-studies memo is going to be about ryanair,and the impact on traffic and atc here..
i would really appreciate every feedback from all of you about this topic,if you are able to explain me the compagny strategy on the filling of flight plans to avoid regulations 4example..
i'm trying trough my memo to have a fair insight of ryan'technics..
i wont hide that sometime ryan'crews are very demanding but i would really like to understand accurately why and how they manage..
discussing it with pilots is hard,because its almost impossible to get you up to the tower(so little time with 20min rotations!!)..but that would help so much!!!
a lot of people(atc and politics and locals)see ryanaire as ths best symbol of the invading colonialism from uk,and i hope my memo will help them to understand better the phenomenon!!
thanks a lot !!!!!
camille
im a young atc working in sw france,and my end-of-studies memo is going to be about ryanair,and the impact on traffic and atc here..
i would really appreciate every feedback from all of you about this topic,if you are able to explain me the compagny strategy on the filling of flight plans to avoid regulations 4example..
i'm trying trough my memo to have a fair insight of ryan'technics..
i wont hide that sometime ryan'crews are very demanding but i would really like to understand accurately why and how they manage..
discussing it with pilots is hard,because its almost impossible to get you up to the tower(so little time with 20min rotations!!)..but that would help so much!!!
a lot of people(atc and politics and locals)see ryanaire as ths best symbol of the invading colonialism from uk,and i hope my memo will help them to understand better the phenomenon!!
thanks a lot !!!!!
camille
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Originally Posted by atc4ever
hello every body!!
i wont hide that sometime ryan'crews are very demanding but i would really like to understand accurately why and how they manage..
camille
i wont hide that sometime ryan'crews are very demanding but i would really like to understand accurately why and how they manage..
camille
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dont suppose you work in Limoges?
was there the other day and got there really early and your lot decided to go on strike - gave me time to pay a visit to the tower where i found a very good looking french female ATCO. Ryanair pilots are'nt demanding but i'm sure she would be!
was there the other day and got there really early and your lot decided to go on strike - gave me time to pay a visit to the tower where i found a very good looking french female ATCO. Ryanair pilots are'nt demanding but i'm sure she would be!
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French ATC are annoying when they ask you do a circling when the wind is calm and a visual onto the opposite runway because a PA28 is in a circuit. Just two examples of what I have been hit with.
Risk A: Hands off the little French cutie in LIG, I saw her first!!! Had she the little ski boots on?
God bless the french ladies, don't know about ATC 
MK
Risk A: Hands off the little French cutie in LIG, I saw her first!!! Had she the little ski boots on?
God bless the french ladies, don't know about ATC MK
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hi again!!
demanding as:still on the freq with ccr steady on cruise and already asking for the avaibility of ils and rwy 21!!!
just the day the atis announces rwy 03 in use..
to me it sounds funny but some of my colleagues are really annoyed..
i would really like to know if its some compagny instructions!!!
honestly you dont save that much time..or is it the locator rwy 03 or visuals that frightensyou??
about holding to give to light aircraft on circuit,its just because you're to heavy to taxi on usual txws and line up easily after their touchs&gos!!
the best about fuss like that is to discuss it but youre always on rush!!
and last time you came upstairs ,even if apparently you found atc attractive you werent fully ready for discussions,too
angry and aggressive about the delays..
i've launched the topic so each can understand what's up on the other side of the mic..
still hope to get feedback about what big bro ryan tells you to do and not do..
thanks!!
cam
demanding as:still on the freq with ccr steady on cruise and already asking for the avaibility of ils and rwy 21!!!
just the day the atis announces rwy 03 in use..
to me it sounds funny but some of my colleagues are really annoyed..
i would really like to know if its some compagny instructions!!!
honestly you dont save that much time..or is it the locator rwy 03 or visuals that frightensyou??
about holding to give to light aircraft on circuit,its just because you're to heavy to taxi on usual txws and line up easily after their touchs&gos!!
the best about fuss like that is to discuss it but youre always on rush!!
and last time you came upstairs ,even if apparently you found atc attractive you werent fully ready for discussions,too
angry and aggressive about the delays..i've launched the topic so each can understand what's up on the other side of the mic..
still hope to get feedback about what big bro ryan tells you to do and not do..
thanks!!
cam
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atc4ever - so you are from LIG?
we did the Locator approach onto RWY 03 for the first time in ages - great fun got a really nice view of the city - looks a lovely place. we were cleared by the approach controller (who i'm assuming is not based in LIG) for the Locator approach and with visual contact with the ground we self positioned onto the LOC. we then got handed over to tower and landed. on the ground we were told to inform ATC before we descended beyond this point on the approach, even though the approach controller had cleared us for the approach - i think there may have been a lack of communication somewhere..
company SOPs state that we can take up to a 10kt tailwind on an approach, and when approaching from the north it is more expeditious (having checked landing performance etc) to take the ILS 21 into LIG, save cirlcing with the geardown and burning an extra 500kgs of fuel. To state that RYR pilots are scared of a circle or even Locator approach is somewhat naive.. we fly to some of the most challenging destinations in europe- often with only an ILS onto one runway - non-precision approaches are just part of the job with Ryanair.
what specifically would you like to know about the RYR operation?
we did the Locator approach onto RWY 03 for the first time in ages - great fun got a really nice view of the city - looks a lovely place. we were cleared by the approach controller (who i'm assuming is not based in LIG) for the Locator approach and with visual contact with the ground we self positioned onto the LOC. we then got handed over to tower and landed. on the ground we were told to inform ATC before we descended beyond this point on the approach, even though the approach controller had cleared us for the approach - i think there may have been a lack of communication somewhere..
company SOPs state that we can take up to a 10kt tailwind on an approach, and when approaching from the north it is more expeditious (having checked landing performance etc) to take the ILS 21 into LIG, save cirlcing with the geardown and burning an extra 500kgs of fuel. To state that RYR pilots are scared of a circle or even Locator approach is somewhat naive.. we fly to some of the most challenging destinations in europe- often with only an ILS onto one runway - non-precision approaches are just part of the job with Ryanair.
what specifically would you like to know about the RYR operation?
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well yes i'm at LIG..and we do have approach and local positions both at the tower..
its not really the matter of 03 or 21 its more the way its demanded..
when there is not problems for us we certainly accord it,but to get fuss when we decline it due to others traffics,trainings,others commercials we get sometimes the feeling thats its like an offense to you..
but its depends on the mood of the pilot..and as well the mood of the atc..
but fair enough with fuss useless like that..
nice to you to take time to answer my questions..
what i would like to knowabout operations is:
1 how much rotations per day you make??(i red a lot about the new5/4roster but harsch to get a look atr your typical work day)
2 do you have pressure on you from ops for example if too much fuel comsummed due to weather avoidance ??
3 do you get penalities on your pay if diverted,or delays??
4 how do they at ops file the repeated file plans??do they have special technics to get through regulations (via demanding fake cruise levels)??
5 with crews never overnighting how do they manager flows of aircrafts at stansted??one wave in the morning one back in the afternoon??
6 where do the differences to classic airlines lays?compare to ba??
7 do you know why ryanair doesnt take part in iata or in global projects about atc in europ or tnews technics like ads ???
thanks a lot for yoru patience..fell free to answer,nothinf to fear it all stays betwween us and feel welcome to visit us or my colleagues in others airports in france upstairs in towers..dialog is the only thing that can smoothen the way we work!!
xx cam
its not really the matter of 03 or 21 its more the way its demanded..
when there is not problems for us we certainly accord it,but to get fuss when we decline it due to others traffics,trainings,others commercials we get sometimes the feeling thats its like an offense to you..
but its depends on the mood of the pilot..and as well the mood of the atc..
but fair enough with fuss useless like that..
nice to you to take time to answer my questions..
what i would like to knowabout operations is:
1 how much rotations per day you make??(i red a lot about the new5/4roster but harsch to get a look atr your typical work day)
2 do you have pressure on you from ops for example if too much fuel comsummed due to weather avoidance ??
3 do you get penalities on your pay if diverted,or delays??
4 how do they at ops file the repeated file plans??do they have special technics to get through regulations (via demanding fake cruise levels)??
5 with crews never overnighting how do they manager flows of aircrafts at stansted??one wave in the morning one back in the afternoon??
6 where do the differences to classic airlines lays?compare to ba??
7 do you know why ryanair doesnt take part in iata or in global projects about atc in europ or tnews technics like ads ???
thanks a lot for yoru patience..fell free to answer,nothinf to fear it all stays betwween us and feel welcome to visit us or my colleagues in others airports in france upstairs in towers..dialog is the only thing that can smoothen the way we work!!
xx cam
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Ryanair crew usually operate two rotations per day depending on sector length. Thus, a typical day would involve four flights or two flights if the sectors are long (3 hrs say).
There is no pressure on the crews regarding fuel when weather or other significant operational factors are present. Economics dictate that on 'normal' days fuel should be kept to a safe minimum in order to save the company money but there is nothing restricting a Captain carrying as much fuel as he/she likes. A simple notation on the days voyage report satisfies the company as to the reason why extra fuel was carried. Also, on most destinations from STN the aircraft 'tankers' fuel to save upload costs at more expensive outstations. Thus a RYR aircraft flying to France will usually have enough fuel to do the return sector also.
Ryanair operations file all repetitive flight plans and these cannot be 'doctored' to include false cruise levels as they are just rejected by Eurocontrol. Flight plans are generated automatically by computer taking into account both optimum flight levels and ATC FL restrictions as well as all JAR requirments relating to IFR flight plans. Very little human input on a daily basis. In excess of 600 flight plans are filed per day. And this number is growing daily.
There is no pressure on the crews regarding fuel when weather or other significant operational factors are present. Economics dictate that on 'normal' days fuel should be kept to a safe minimum in order to save the company money but there is nothing restricting a Captain carrying as much fuel as he/she likes. A simple notation on the days voyage report satisfies the company as to the reason why extra fuel was carried. Also, on most destinations from STN the aircraft 'tankers' fuel to save upload costs at more expensive outstations. Thus a RYR aircraft flying to France will usually have enough fuel to do the return sector also.
Ryanair operations file all repetitive flight plans and these cannot be 'doctored' to include false cruise levels as they are just rejected by Eurocontrol. Flight plans are generated automatically by computer taking into account both optimum flight levels and ATC FL restrictions as well as all JAR requirments relating to IFR flight plans. Very little human input on a daily basis. In excess of 600 flight plans are filed per day. And this number is growing daily.
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-8AS is correct, if the weather is bad (which it has been recently in LIG), we will hold off until it improves. There is no deductions from pay if we use extra fuel or diverted or delayed - we simply add a delay code to the voyage report. This is normal for all airlines.
RYR vs BA? RYR maximise the use of their aircraft during the day, typically 7am to 11pm (average 6 flights per day), then aircraft is taken over by engineering during the night. They also maximise the use of their crews, however, i believe BA shorthaul pilots are working as much as RYR pilots these days - after all we can only work max 900hours per year..
The 25min turnaround is pretty tough sometimes, and it is in our interests to arrive early to our destinations. i suppose you may see a difference there between BA and RYR, we will ask for a shortcut and probably request more, BA dont have to turnaround the aircraft in 25 mins
hope this helps, i'm not sure about your last question
RA
RYR vs BA? RYR maximise the use of their aircraft during the day, typically 7am to 11pm (average 6 flights per day), then aircraft is taken over by engineering during the night. They also maximise the use of their crews, however, i believe BA shorthaul pilots are working as much as RYR pilots these days - after all we can only work max 900hours per year..
The 25min turnaround is pretty tough sometimes, and it is in our interests to arrive early to our destinations. i suppose you may see a difference there between BA and RYR, we will ask for a shortcut and probably request more, BA dont have to turnaround the aircraft in 25 mins
hope this helps, i'm not sure about your last question
RA
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I dont know about other airports but some Ryan pilots doesn't seam to like NDB approaches... on Gothemburg City Airport in Sweden we se a lot of RyanAir pilots beign offered a RW01 NDB Approach which is the closest and fastet way to land considering where they are comming from but they almost always go around the airport and land tailwind landings just to get an ILS on RW19...
Good luck on your paper
Best Regards
/Tim
Good luck on your paper
Best Regards
/Tim
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advance notice and control
which came first the chicken or the egg? aircraft or ATC?
i'm confident that if you had the aircraft strapped to your arse and were flying 4 sectors a day 5 days on and 3 off and flying maximum hours to so many airports that you would take the extra step to ask if a certain runway was available. especially when you hear that the ATIS is over two hours old, and perhaps on the 5th day, you would rather take the ILS rather than any non precision approach.
in the aircraft you are required to brief precisely what you will be doing and rather than brief two full approaches, you would rather make a call and confirm which runway/approach is available.
and when it comes down to it-you as a flight crew would have every right to ask for any certain runway you prefer. ATC will either deny or grant the request. but to say that the flight crew's request is annoying is forgetting that the aircraft came before ATC.
i'm confident that if you had the aircraft strapped to your arse and were flying 4 sectors a day 5 days on and 3 off and flying maximum hours to so many airports that you would take the extra step to ask if a certain runway was available. especially when you hear that the ATIS is over two hours old, and perhaps on the 5th day, you would rather take the ILS rather than any non precision approach.
in the aircraft you are required to brief precisely what you will be doing and rather than brief two full approaches, you would rather make a call and confirm which runway/approach is available.
and when it comes down to it-you as a flight crew would have every right to ask for any certain runway you prefer. ATC will either deny or grant the request. but to say that the flight crew's request is annoying is forgetting that the aircraft came before ATC.
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"...a lot of people(atc and politics and locals)see ryanaire as ths best symbol of the invading colonialism from uk...."
I'm surprised that no one has picked up on this. Ryanair are based in Dublin, Eire. Not part of the UK.
OK, I'm a picky smart arse, I'll shut up now
JF
I'm surprised that no one has picked up on this. Ryanair are based in Dublin, Eire. Not part of the UK.
OK, I'm a picky smart arse, I'll shut up now
JF
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ryr memo, ndb 01 at gse
hello founder,
the problem of the ndb rwy 01 at gse, (gothenburg save), is not, to like or not to like this approach. it is an operational matter. non precision approaches in general increase pilot workloads, needs a so called double briefing, on top of the normal brief. has higher minimas than ils approach etc... .
in this particular case for ndb rwy 01, the approach is not very users friendly.
the faf is at 4nm at 1550ft only, is not co-located with the ndb & has steeper than normal descent gradient, 5.8% if i am correct. couple that with a heavy landing weight, higher minimas, 600ft mda(rounded of from 550ft) & a rather short rwy for a b738 ng.
in fact, a lot of parameters come into play, as stated in other posts, not the least to mention the weather conditions, wind, vis/rvr, cloudbase,rwy dry/wet etc... . i agree, if wx & wind & all the rest is ok, then a npa or visual app(day only as per ryr sop) should not pose a problem.
a last remark, if a late rwy change(from rwy 19 to rwy 01), is proposed by atc to accommodate, then all the ingredients for a rushed app are in place, à la cali (b757 amercan airlines). in that case it would be better to stick to the original plan & fly the ils rwy 19, even with a slight tw.
so founder, don't jump to conclusions to soon & by the way, ryr crews are, by definition, flying a lot of npa's(non precision approches).
the problem would be solved by installing an ils on rwy 01.
bm.
the problem of the ndb rwy 01 at gse, (gothenburg save), is not, to like or not to like this approach. it is an operational matter. non precision approaches in general increase pilot workloads, needs a so called double briefing, on top of the normal brief. has higher minimas than ils approach etc... .
in this particular case for ndb rwy 01, the approach is not very users friendly.
the faf is at 4nm at 1550ft only, is not co-located with the ndb & has steeper than normal descent gradient, 5.8% if i am correct. couple that with a heavy landing weight, higher minimas, 600ft mda(rounded of from 550ft) & a rather short rwy for a b738 ng.
in fact, a lot of parameters come into play, as stated in other posts, not the least to mention the weather conditions, wind, vis/rvr, cloudbase,rwy dry/wet etc... . i agree, if wx & wind & all the rest is ok, then a npa or visual app(day only as per ryr sop) should not pose a problem.
a last remark, if a late rwy change(from rwy 19 to rwy 01), is proposed by atc to accommodate, then all the ingredients for a rushed app are in place, à la cali (b757 amercan airlines). in that case it would be better to stick to the original plan & fly the ils rwy 19, even with a slight tw.
so founder, don't jump to conclusions to soon & by the way, ryr crews are, by definition, flying a lot of npa's(non precision approches).
the problem would be solved by installing an ils on rwy 01.
bm.
Last edited by blackmail; 23rd Mar 2006 at 12:37.
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Originally Posted by blackmail
hello founder,
the problem of the ndb rwy 01 at gse, (gothenburg save), is not, to like or not to like this approach. it is an operational matter. non precision approaches in general increase pilot workloads, needs a so called double briefing, on top of the normal brief. has higher minimas than ils approach etc... .
in this particular case for ndb rwy 01, the approach is not very users friendly.
the faf is at 4nm at 1550ft only, is not co-located with the ndb & has steeper than normal descent gradient, 5.8% if i am correct. couple that with a heavy landing weight, higher minimas, 600ft mda(rounded of from 550ft) & a rather short rwy for a b738 ng.
in fact, a lot of parameters come into play, as stated in other posts, not the least to mention the weather conditions, wind, vis/rvr, cloudbase,rwy dry/wet etc... . i agree, if wx & wind & all the rest is ok, then a npa or visual app(day only as per ryr sop) should not pose a problem.
a last remark, if a late rwy change(from rwy 19 to rwy 01), is proposed by atc to accommodate, then all the ingredients for a rushed app are in place, ā la cali (b757 amercan airlines). in that case it would be better to stick to the original plan & fly the ils rwy 19, even with a slight tw.
so founder, don't jump to conclusions to soon & by the way, ryr crews are, by definition, flying a lot of npa's(non precision approches).
the problem would be solved by installing an ils on rwy 01.
bm.
the problem of the ndb rwy 01 at gse, (gothenburg save), is not, to like or not to like this approach. it is an operational matter. non precision approaches in general increase pilot workloads, needs a so called double briefing, on top of the normal brief. has higher minimas than ils approach etc... .
in this particular case for ndb rwy 01, the approach is not very users friendly.
the faf is at 4nm at 1550ft only, is not co-located with the ndb & has steeper than normal descent gradient, 5.8% if i am correct. couple that with a heavy landing weight, higher minimas, 600ft mda(rounded of from 550ft) & a rather short rwy for a b738 ng.
in fact, a lot of parameters come into play, as stated in other posts, not the least to mention the weather conditions, wind, vis/rvr, cloudbase,rwy dry/wet etc... . i agree, if wx & wind & all the rest is ok, then a npa or visual app(day only as per ryr sop) should not pose a problem.
a last remark, if a late rwy change(from rwy 19 to rwy 01), is proposed by atc to accommodate, then all the ingredients for a rushed app are in place, ā la cali (b757 amercan airlines). in that case it would be better to stick to the original plan & fly the ils rwy 19, even with a slight tw.
so founder, don't jump to conclusions to soon & by the way, ryr crews are, by definition, flying a lot of npa's(non precision approches).
the problem would be solved by installing an ils on rwy 01.
bm.
You're right about the steep approach and that the FAF is located about 2 nm south of the NDB but does that really cause a problem? I've flown that approach several times, not with such a heavy plane as a 737-800 but still...
I totally agree with you that an ILS on RWY01 would be a very good thing but I dont think it'll happen anytime soon sadly. NPA's in general are dangerous if the weather is poor but on a bright an sunny day with severe CAVOK I don't really see the problem except for the extra workload and of course like you said have a very heavy aircraft...
The same thing is with Trollhättan Airport (ESGT) which has the same equipment as ESGP, NDB on on rwy and an ILS on the other... however the largest aircraft operating to and from that airport right now is a SAAB 2000...
Do you by any chanse know the max x-wind and tailwind ryanair pilots are allowed to land in?
Kind Regards
Tim
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ryr memo, ndb rwy 01 gse
hello founder,
i am glad for your understanding.
the extra workload for this ndb approach is enhanced by the short/steep final approach leg & ryr sops that have us to start reconfiguring the aeroplane for landing, 2nm from the faf, in a very precise sequence.
in marginal wx, it can be a challenge, eg: mini rvr required=2000m. at 600ft mda(540ft agl) your distance to the rwy= 540/0.058=9310feet/6080= 1.5nmx 1852= 2835m. so at mda(no level flight allowed), we might well not see the rwy & a goaround executed.
ryr x wind limitations are a saga on its own when wet/slippery/contaminated rwy's are considered, but on a dry, 45m width rwy, it is 35kts ( boeing advisories are 36 kts) & autobrakes 2 mandatory for x wind in excess of 15kts.
i am glad for your understanding.
the extra workload for this ndb approach is enhanced by the short/steep final approach leg & ryr sops that have us to start reconfiguring the aeroplane for landing, 2nm from the faf, in a very precise sequence.
in marginal wx, it can be a challenge, eg: mini rvr required=2000m. at 600ft mda(540ft agl) your distance to the rwy= 540/0.058=9310feet/6080= 1.5nmx 1852= 2835m. so at mda(no level flight allowed), we might well not see the rwy & a goaround executed.
ryr x wind limitations are a saga on its own when wet/slippery/contaminated rwy's are considered, but on a dry, 45m width rwy, it is 35kts ( boeing advisories are 36 kts) & autobrakes 2 mandatory for x wind in excess of 15kts.
