Jump seat rides - are they possible?

[Thunor]

Please forgive my ignorance - not been involved in airline-flying for a few years now....
In these days of "heightened security" and the "locked flight-deck door" policy is there any way of obtaining a "jump-seat ride" - assuming you are neither employed by the airline in question nor "personally known to the Captain" nor a CAA Flight Ops. Inspector etc...
This is a genuine question so serious replies appreciated. Thanks.

[Rainboe]

Not a chance.

[Thunor]

Thanks! Makes preparation - after a long period of unemployment - for a sim. assessment on an unfamiliar type all that more difficult then!
Oh for the "good old days"....

[BOAC]

Not quite true, Thunor. For example I believe ATC famil flights still happen. It would be a long-winded and possibly fruitless process for you, but I believe some airlines would provide under certain circumstances. You would need to approach each airline DFO separately but they will take some convincing!

You could always book a ticket with one of our European partners that do allow of course - if you believe what you see on PPRune. I suspect you are going to be unlucky in the UK or US.

Try 'search' back into 2004 for 'jump seat' for a few pointers.

[Rainboe]

True I think! Did it say somewhere he was ATC?

[BOAC]

Glasses Rainboe

For example

[Halfwayback]

Sadly the Dept. for Transport have restricted the flight deck access to those members of the operating crew (obviously ). CAA Pilot inspectors and those who have an operational need to be there such as training captains. flight test engineers etc. They also allow DFO's to allow ATC personnel on duty for familiarisation flights. There is a relaxation for certain duty personnel to request the jump seat when there are no empty seats in the cabin.

The Air Training Corps cadets. fear of flying folk and other well meaning people I am afraid are not allowed in as a direct result of 9/11 and the countermeasures subsequently introduced.

HWB

[Rainboe]

Look BOAC, Thunor asked, and gave this information: <<assuming you are neither employed by the airline in question nor "personally known to the Captain" nor a CAA Flight Ops. Inspector etc...>>. I told him quite truthfully and undeniably 'no chance'. I don't see what help it is trying to prove there is an exception (for ATC) when it doesn't apply in his case. Most of us know there is an exception for very limited cases- I don't think it helps him. So, the answer is 'no chance'! My glasses are just fine, thank you. I think it unlikely people will take a flight with a foreign carrier in the hope their slack interpretation of the rules will mean they may be able to sit upfront.

[Thunor]

Gosh guys - chill, please! I really didn't mean to provoke such a heated exchange! Rainboe your "Warning Toxic" title is very apt!
I didn't particularly want to go into all this but just so you know where I am coming from:
I am (or at least was!) a very experienced Turboprop Captain. Sadly I lost my job and seemingly career in the wake of the tragedy of 9/11! I have been unemployed ever since! I recently had one successful interview only to fail the subsequent "simulator assessment". I have just had another unsuccessful interview the argument being that I was considered "too great a training risk" after 4+ years of not flying! Fair enough, maybe, - although of course they knew from my c.v. that I hadn't flown for 4+ years so why waste everybody's time inviting me for interview but that's another story!
Now unexpectedly I have been invited for another interview and simulator assessment and I simply cannot afford to blow what may well be my last chance hence my genuine desire to secure a "jump seat" ride on the aircraft type in question!
I only wish I had a pound for every time I had allowed someone to travel on the jump-seat whilst I was a Captain - sadly though times change!
9/11 put me on the dole and it seems all these years later it is still preventing me from becoming re-employed!
BOAC and Halfwayback thank you very much for your comments. Rainboe - thanks for your "toxic" frankness!

[Farrell]

I have been on jumpseat rides post 9/11

Am very lucky, I must admit.

[Milt]

Go for it.

If the perogative for airline captains to have the last word on approval for someone to occupy the jump seat has been removed then the locking of the flight deck door is giving in to a repressive system that wants to close ALL stable doors.

In times of low activity I much enjoyed having a young fellow in the jump seat providing an introduction to the complexity of the environment. It was also a boost for CRM.

How many of the current captains made their decision to become one after their first time in a jump seat?

[dontpressthat]

Good call MILT..
I was fortunate enough to get a jumpseat to mombassa back in 2000, it Certinly made my mind up for me and I started training within 3months. Its a shame more people wont have the chance for a bit of up close inspiration.

[chevvron]

ATC Fam Flights don't happen nowadays, more's the pity. They haven't happened officially since 9/11, but sometimes individual captains will exercise discretion if they feel you are to be trusted.

[Rainboe]

Thunor, my comments were not intended to be toxic, but plain truthful. In my retired state, I could not now visit the very flight decks I worked in for 34 years myself. The shutters have come down. The reasons are valid- Mukonyi and the Fedex DC10 incident- and that was a fellow deadheading crewmember! I think there would be very limited value for what you want in a single observing flight in a strange aeroplane if you could get it. How about other solutions- investing in a short simulator course?

[Volume]

I have had one jumpseat ride pre 9/11 and about a dozen after. Last was mid 05, so it is still possible, if you are lucky. All jumpseat rides post 9/11 were domestic, I´m afraid there is nearly no chance for international rides any more.

[PPRuNe Radar]

ATC Fam Flights don't happen nowadays, more's the pity. They haven't happened officially since 9/11, but sometimes individual captains will exercise discretion if they feel you are to be trusted.

UK rules were changed circa 2002/2003 to allow ATC to be carried, with various caveats and requirements for example, a formal approval letter from the airline Director of Flight Ops.

With that change in place to the regulations, UK NATS have had a reduced national programme up and running since the end of 2003. This is often supplemented by local agreements with other carriers. In either case, they all take a bit of organising and paperwork, but they can certainly happen if the individual makes the effort and is happy to cover the expenses, and the time off, from their own resources.

The main problem is that most carriers limit the flights to maybe one or two a month and only during the winter season so there are not many seats available to a staff of 1000 or so.

Some in NATS do still claim we can't do fam flights but that is usually down to them not having accessed or read the blurb which is published in staff notices, or (more likely) their unit managers not 'advertising' the facility.

[Thunor]

Rainboe - thank you for your further explanatory comments and indeed your advice. I'll see what I can do. Still sad that it's no longer the industry it once was though

[sf25]

an acquaintance of mine recently told me he had had a ride on the jump seat in a german charter airliner .... he was "just" a passenger and was taken there due to the fact that the a/c was overbooked ....

[chevvron]

There are definitely no NATS Staff Notices current about Fam Flights; the only one listed in the index is ot of date.

[Rainboe]

Volume- your experience is presumably in the States which instigated, and rigorously enforces the new regulations (for foreign carriers). The situation we have in the UK is that we take up rule changes from the European Community and US and enforce them totally, whilst the other countries involved appear to apply a slack interpretation. Jump seat rides in the UK are totally banned, with incredibly minor exceptions, whilst even in the country that started the current regs (US), things are slackening off. So my brutal answer was to plainly explain it can't happen here (UK). No UK pilot I know would hazard his job having unauthorised access to the FD when even his wife and son are banned out of hand. That is another question. As always with extended discussions on Prune, it is worth going back to read the initial postings and remind ourselves what the query is!