MSc Air Transport Management, Cranfield

[Abdel]

Hello all,

I am keen on finding out as much information as possible about the Air Transport Management MSc at Cranfield (there is also a similar course at City University, London).

I will be attending an open day at the end of November where I hope to quiz the course organisers and hopefully some students, however I hope that there may be a few ppruners who may have completed the course or are currently on it, or others who have some knowledge about it who can help me.


- I am not from an academic background and wondered how the course organisers valued real life aviation experience compared to academic qualifications


- What is the make up of students - ie those with academic qualifications v students with aviation experience? is it 50/50?


- Average age of students on the course? (Also, I assume that the older students may be those without academic qualifications but aviation experience - yes?)


- Male/female ratio


- Teacher/student ratio


- Graduate employability - are they really sought after by players in the industry?


- Cranfield industry links - is it as good as the institution makes out?



If anyone can help me with any of these questions or any other related issue I'd greatly appreciate it.


Thank you
Abdel

[Mercenary Pilot]

Male/female ratio... At Cranfield!
About 1000/1 Im afraid.

[Abdel]

1000/1 ?!? Forget it I ain't going!!

The main considerations are things like course/institution reputation, graduate employability, etc, not women, I don't think I should have asked the question, sorry.

Mercenary Pilot, did you attend Cranfield or the course in particular?


Abdel

[Mercenary Pilot]

Abdel
Check you PM's

Blanik
Send me a PM

[rsoman]

1 Real Life experience valued???
*************************
Well during my time there (which was not too far back), most of the faculty did apprciate the insights the few of us who had work experience did have. There would always be an occasional blacksheep, but mostly YES.


Student Breakup- fresh grads vs Experienced?
************
Well in my year it was something 40:60. And that did add value ! Infact I think that is one of the highlights of the programme - you learn a lot from from your classmates as you do from the course itself. And I should hasten to add that you learn as much from the freshers from the univ (those latest tricks in Excel???- the snazziest way to a PP presentation....).


Age of students......
************

Well in my year around 25..! But remember the intake is small. between 30-35... So the average age is not an indicative figure like the Harvard MBA (a class of 1000?)...


Older students without academic qualifications but aviation experience??
************
Well most of the older students have BOTH Academic qualifications and Aviation Experience (We had for instance a lawyer as well as a
Economist!)

Teacher Student Ratio
******************

1 for every 3 students . There are about a dozen faculty memebers, most of them old hands. However two of the veterans have recently retired.

Graduate employability - are they really sought after by players in the industry?
*******************************

Well first do a search of the archives here....... I wish I did before I went ..... (but at that time I was a greenhorin in PPRUNE). Some very realistic views you will come accross.....


Remember that aviation esp in the management side is one of the the BIGGEST CLOSED SHOPs in any industry, esp in the non western world!


Put it this way - if you are native of UK or EU and/or has the right to live and work in Europe. (without the need of a special work permit) ..not only do you pay 1/5th of the regular course fee , but then you will have five times the chance to get employed......


Cranfield industry links - is it as good as the institution makes out?
*********

Well links are there alright, but sorry to say mostly it is for the faculty and the deparment's enrichment in terms of consultancies, project work etc! With the exception of a honourable few, the school's and the faculty's interest in you stops the moment you are out .... Dont expect too much assistance for placements et all... I doubt whether the department even is in in a positon to
tell any prospective employer which all students are available.........

The department badly can do with a placement cell or a careers office.....Yes there is a University Career guidance cell..but they dont know the difference between Forumla 1 vehicle skin corrosion testing specialist and a air transport flight analyst........ They have too broad a portfolio of students to handle...... To put it mildly the sort of placement assistance most of us in our batch received was next to nothing!


Guess that sums it up! Of course - it is just my experience and it may be in variance with a lot of others. But ours was a close knit batch, I am still in touch with about half a dozen guys on a regular basis and while all of us are unanimous that we had a great time at Cranfield, when the question comes to how much the course and the department helped us actually progress...... well there are a lot of hmmm's and haaaaas!


Please give some serious thought before you join the programme.. Not discouraging you by any means and I will be the first say that I enjoyed the programme as much as anyone else....but then I didnt join the programme to have a 20000 Pound holiday.....which is what it is looking like for me so far.........!!!!

Be warned of the financial implications!!!

[Abdel]

rsoman,

Thanks for your reply.......

1. Great to know experience is valued in the class, I sincerely hope that it is valued in the selection process for my sake!

2. You're saying the course infact turns out to be an MSc Air Transport Management with MS Office!

3. 30-35 students seems a low number - I would have thought it to be nearer 50. But this brings down the student:teacher ratio which is a positive, more tutor attention.

4. You mention that the University's involvement with the student stops once they graduate - the prospectus certainly doesn't give this impression. I would have thought they would hav some sort of careers liaison officer or similar to help students. But I guess in this industry you have to do most of the hard work yourself 'eh?...

I am giving it a serious thought - financial implications too. But I am still convinced that the MSc can offer excellent career benefits.

Thanks for your informative reply. All taken on board. As I said earlier I will be attending the open day later this month so all this information will prove extremely useful.


Thank you

Abdel

[scroggs]

Abdel, I'm trying to decide whether this is really the most appropriate forum for this post - or even if it belongs in 'Wannabes' at all. Perhaps you could give me an idea of what was in your mind when you put it here. For instance, was it in relation to employment as a pilot? Pilot training? Or did you have something else in mind?

Give me a clue or two here (or PM me) and I'll see it goes to the best place for your needs.

Scroggs

[Abdel]

Hi Scroggs,

The post is just a request to ppruners for information about the MSc course at Cranfield.

Nothing to do with pilots - the course is entitled 'Air Transport Management' - a general business and marketing course for the aviation industry.

Feel free to relocate the post wherever you think is suitable.

Cheers,
Abdel

[scroggs]

Hmmm. Not easy this, as we don't have a forum for airline management or those who'd like to be. The Wannabes forums are only for baby pilots, most of whom will want little to do with management degrees as yet!

I'll shunt this to the Questions forum. It's not ideal, but it'll be better than Wannabes for your purposes.

Scroggs

[rsoman]

Hey Scroggs

If it is of any help. usually every batch in the Cranfield MSc will have an ATPL and a few PPLs, all acquiring the additional qualifications of being a bean counter in times of a down turn!


Abdel

Dont undervalue the constribution of freshers in this programme. The prospectus says every student should have a "demonstrable interest in aviation " and at least in my batch, the screening processs seemed to have been successful in that way. Also the students come from literally every point of the globe and in that respect alone, the course is very good!

Tutor attention - Quite misleading since half the faculty jet set all over the world for the department's consultancy projects (not to speak of their annual vacation as well). So you will often find classess rearranged to suit the facutly rather than for the benefit of the students! This was very much in evidence in our year, in which for "administrative reasons" the forecasting elective was conducted AFTER the major case study presentation and to make it worse all the case study groups were given the invaluable post case study feedback that "your forecasting skills are not upto the mark!". Naturally, nobody had a clue when the presentations were being done, when they weren't yet taught the nuances of the subject!

Regarding carriers - the university has a careers office - but not the department (while they indeed have an admissions officer among the faculty!).
And ATM is a specialised course where networking plays a big part.
Put it this way, I reached the final round of interviews at two major airlines in my part of the world (and at that time we just had 5 in the whole country) and despite these famed industry linkages, the panel hadn't even heard of Cranfield (and this was a high level interview panel with subject specialists and not just HR people). It isn't very amusing to know this after you spend a king's ransom to get in and do the course

Employabilty and Career benefits are there, all the more so esp if as I said you are a EU native. But for outsiders (who incidentally paying 5 times the fees prop up the course and I guess some of the faculty as well), the course is poor value. Most of us who were from the latter group went back to our previous employeers (in my case , I was lucky to get my job back , because I had to resign my job earlier to join Cranfield!).

Not trying to discourage you, but dont read too much into the hype! Go and ask hard questions in the open day and dont just beleive all what the brochures say! Ask them for some alumini contacts working in the industry (and who has paid their own way for the course) who you can speak to., speak to them as well and then decide!

Good Luck!

[Flyer Flier]

Hi Abdel,
I got your PM requesting Cranfield info, as your obviously found me as a previous course student on the similar thread that did the rounds a couple of years ago on here
Cranfield MSc PPRUNE previous thread
If you want me to add any more, then I would have to say that although the MSc was very enjoyable it did not help me with my career that much. Trying to break into airline management at a mid-level using other aviation experience and a fresh MSc in your hand is very difficult.
Eventually I moved into flying for a living and have ended up wandering around the world following old Scroggs into strange bars Not what I envisaged after Cranfield, but I like it when fate sometimes sends you off at a tangent.
Reading all the other posts, I would agree with the sentiment that it is probably good value for those able to get in under the eligible fees scheme, but for those paying the full overseas rates, unless you are sent by your employer, you should carefully consider the costs involved versus the results it will produce for you.
Best of luck!
Flyer Flier

[rsoman]

There is an even better thread here, about 4 years old (the one I wished I had read before I went in for the programme!). Dont worry about the title which is about City's programme, but the same has some very practical insights into Cranfield life as well.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ight=Cranfield

Cheers

[Genghis the Engineer]

For what it's worth, although I've never either taught or studied at Cranfield, I do have some reasonable knowledge of universities and the fine art of both studying and lecturing aviation related subjects at university.

Firstly, a Cranfield degree is probably one of the best available in the world - it's an extremely highly regarded institution.

Secondly, real world experience can work both for and against you. In your favour, you'll be much better able to relate what you're learning to the situations and environment you're hoping to apply it to than you would be as somebody straight out of a first degree. Against is that you may not be as current in the "study habit" (and don't underestimate just how hard you'll be working on such a course, it'll be hellish at times and continuously very intense).

So, I'd say if the content is right for you, go for Cranfield - you won't find better. BUT, I'd strongly recommend if you aren't from an academic background doing something (maybe a couple of A-levels at evening classes, or a few OU modules) to prepare you for the study demands rather than try to launch straight into it.

G

[BBJ]

I have graduated from the MSc in Air Transport Management from the City University in 2004. Believe me, it was the best educational experience I have ever had!

Students are from the industry, self sponsored with a keen interest to get ahead in their professional life. You build up a new platform for networking within your environment and truly set yourself apart from others.

I highly recommend this course-Cranfield or City? I don't know.
I have done it at City and it was worth every penny!

[Abdel]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your replies/posts - all taken on board and greatly appreciated


FYI there is an open day at Cranfield University on 30th November - I will be attending this and hope to pose some questions based on the feedback you have all provided


Thanks again

Abdel

[Abdel]

Hi All,

I attended the Open Day on 30th November - Cranfield does look impressive with some good facilities, the airfield is directly attached to the University with 3 flight schools operating there.

But Cranfield University is EXTREMELY isolated - both Milton Keynes and Bedford are some distance away. A car is definately a must for this place.

Lots of talk about accomodation, facilities, scholarships (based on merit)......

We then split into groups based on the subject areas we were interested in...

I raised the issue of professional experience and asked if it would be considered in lieu of a degree - the reply was that I'd have to have 3 or 4 years mid-mangagement level experience in the industry to be considered - students from an academic background WHATEVER degree they have with no or little experience seem to have a better chance at entry (provided they have a genuine interest in aviation) - it seems clear they prefer the academically proven for this course. However, don't enthusiasm and determination count? real-life experience? Relevant Decision-Making in this day and age? Apparently not - a degree is required.

Male/Female ratio - even on the open day it looked like 10:1!

Alumni Network/Society - Efforts are made by the Uni to keep in touch with all alumni whether full-time or part-time students, and apparently a lot of speakers are ex-students who are now doing well for themselves in the industry.

(Rigas Doganis was an ex-student here, went to Olympic, now at easyJet - can't help but think he took the position with easyJet because of Luton being quite close to his old Uni perhaps! In fact his daughter or neice is at Cranfield now)

Graduate Employability - this was played on all session - most students in relavant employment within 6 months....but posts in pprune contradict this...hhmmm....

Annual intake - 30 or so students - 20 offers have already gone out, leaving 10 or so (assuming all 20 offers are excepted) before the course starts in Oct '06.

The open day itself was not so well organised - a rushed tour, no tour of the library at all, course directors/personnel spoke to groups, with very little time individually.

A few ppruners here referred to the fact that the department staff jet away on consultancy projects around the world and so lectures and modules have to be rearranged - I raised this point and lo and behold they agreed that yes this does sometime happen!

I also raised the point that although the Uni play on the fact that this MSc is very much Air Transport related/specific, this may actually be a disadvantage - there are many leaders in this industry that have not come from an aviation background. I pointed out that the course may infact be too specific, and that other 'transport' courses across the country serve better. The Course Director didn't disagree, but examples were raised where students had entered non-aviation related fields from this course.

Course fees circa £3300 for Home/EU students - God knows what it is for non-EU students.....

150 applications or so for 30 places was the figure quoted - again seems quite low - 5 applications to 1 place - you'd think it'd be a lot higher wouldn't you?


I hope this helps. Please put forward any suggestions you have if you wish.


Abdel

[rsoman]

Abdel

Thanks for sharing the experience of the open day! And looks like u asked some good questions.

Come to think of it, they seem to be a little harsh about the experience part if you are not a degree holder. Dont remember them being so stringent during my time. One reason is that the course is quite exhaustive (although nowhere near that of the management school MBA) and I guess they want to ensure people cope up with the load.

The non EU fee a couple of years back was 15000 Pounds(now you know why I am not gung ho about it being value for money outside EU). In fact it works something like paying 5 times the EU rate to come home to work at 1/5 th the EU pay , esp if u don't have an anutomatic right to work in EU(which is a position most students from Asia are in)!

Well the first advice I got from the Students Union when I steeped into Cranfield was "either get a car or make friends with someone who has one!" I opted for the latter course and for the rest, the No 17 which runs once every three hours between MK and Univ did the job! Yo can always take "Flying Off Course" to kill the time at the bus stop!

Pity abt the library! If u ask me that is one of the highlights! Your course fee covers literally unlimited access to anything and everything in way of online databases (not to speak of a years subscription of ATI thrown in!).

150 applications for 30 places...this is more or less the standard! I remember going there with illusions like you of how I managed to make it to the top 30 from among a couple of thousand applications (as I thought then ) only to be told the figure was something like 120!!!!


University keeping in touch with Alumini. That is very true. In fact was quite surprised to get an invite from the alumini office inviting me to come down for meeting the chaps who are coming to India for the first time to promote the univ. "Will you help your alma matter" was the question ? and the answer from my side was YES. Affter all despite the financial mess I am in thanks to taking the ATM course, the fact remains that regarding the quality of education I got there in Cranfield overall, I dont have much to complain about, esp the facilities provided for the money paid! And for EU guys like you - it is a steal!!!!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'd have to have 3 or 4 years mid-mangagement level experience in the industry to be considered - students from an academic background WHATEVER degree they have with no or little experience seem to have a better chance at entry (provided they have a genuine interest in aviation) - it seems clear they prefer the academically proven for this course. However, don't enthusiasm and determination count?

Re: the academic thing...

- Real world experience will make a huge difference in your understanding of the course, and ability to use it after you've graduated.

- However, for my money, it is recent and appropriate academic experience that will make most difference to your ability to actually pass the course itself.

So, I'm afraid that I do agree with Cranfield's position, this is why I said earlier...

BUT, I'd strongly recommend if you aren't from an academic background doing something (maybe a couple of A-levels at evening classes, or a few OU modules) to prepare you for the study demands rather than try to launch straight into it.

I speak as somebody who teaches aeronautical courses at two universities (neither Cranfield) and has two degrees (again aeronautical) from a third (not Cranfield either).

This, I'm afraid is just how it is - until you've done it, you really will not appreciate the amount of information you need to process constantly on a degree course. ATPLs to be honest don't compare.

Seriously - have you instead considered doing an appropriate BSc or BEng?

G

[Abdel]

Thanks rsoman and Genghis for your replies

Your points taken and accepted Genghis, check your PM's.

[rm2242]

Hey folks.
Have been reading this post with much interest. I am one of the 20 applicants who has been made an offer for 2006 entry (and have accepted). I am interested in speaking to anyone still interested in applying, or has indeed accepted a place for 2006 (..... I have a Car!!!!! ). I am also keen on building up some contacts who are currently studying/have studied ATM at Cranfield. Please, feel free to PM me. I have already been in contact with one friendly chap who is there at the mo (sorry - cant remember your Forum name - but you know who you are :-) ).

Best Regards (and Seasons Greetings to all),

Rob