Serious Questions about ETOPS FLT
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Serious Questions about ETOPS FLT
Happy New Year..
I'm a AirLine First Officer.
And I'm currently working in the Flight Standard Dep.
About ETOPS FLT, Some of our pilots in our company have some opinion discrepencis.
And I need your opinions (or answers) about the following questions based on official published document about ETOPS FLT.
(I really need official documents about this.. not just personal opinion..)
Here's the questions.
1. Is it possible that one flight leg has more than one ETOPS FLT Segments?
2. If multiple ETOPS segments are possible in one flight leg, How many EEP(ETOPS Entry Point)s do we have in this flight ? (The entry point of the First ETOPS Segment is the only EEP? or Every entry point of each ETOPS segment is also EEP ?)
3. If we have more than one EEP, before reaching every EEP do we have to check the suitablilty(WX and etc..) of the enroute alternate airports of the ETOPS segment about to enter ?
4. Before reaching EEP of the first ETOPS segment, do we have to check suitablilty of enroute alternate airports of all the other ETOPS segments also? And in this case, if enroute alternate airports of the first ETOPS segment is suitable but one of the other ETOPS segments' enroute alternate airport is not, (And we can't find any other adequate airport suitable to use) Can we enter the first ETOPS segment ?
5. Let's say we're flying a mutiple ETOPS segmented flight, and now about to reaching the EEP of the last ETOPS segment. We checked WX of the enrount alternate aiport and found out it is below the minimum. And also obviously there is no other adequate airport we can use. Now.. Do we have to divert to nearest suitable airport even if our airplane is completely normal ? Is it illegal to continue the flight to the destinaton airport in captain's discretion ? (What if captain decides it's safer to continue the flight to the destination than to land in a unfamiliar airport in the middle of no where ?)
That'll be all of my questions.
And.. My opinions about above questions is
1. Of course one flight leg can has more than one ETOPS FLT Segments.
2. Every entry point of each ETOPS segment is also EEP.
3. Before reaching every EEP we have to check the suitablilty of the enroute alternate airport (But only for the ETOPS segment about to enter, checking the other ETOPS segment's alternate airport is not mandatory)
4. We can pass the EEP only if we can verify designated ETOPS segment's alternate airport is suitable to use. (Doesn't matter the rest of ETOPS segment's alternate airports are suitable or not at this point.) (This case let's say we don't have any other adequate airport for the ETOPS segment)
5. It is illegal to pass the EEP if our enroute alternate airport of that segment is not suitable (and no other adequate airport we can use) even though our aircraft is completely normal and captain thinks it's safer to fly to the destination.
I'm pretty sure my above oppinion is right.
But the problem is my chief pilot doesn't think so.
And he's about to change our company ETOPS policy.
(He thinks when we do the ETOPS flight only the first EEP is matter. And after that point we can fly all the way down to the destination as far as our airplane is in normal condition. He thinks we have only one EEP and one EXP in one flight leg even if we have multiple ETOPS segments- First EEP is the only EEP and last EXP is the only EXP.)
That's why I need some official documents to back up my opinion.
I'm waiting for your opinions about this.
Thank you and Happy new year again!!
I'm a AirLine First Officer.
And I'm currently working in the Flight Standard Dep.
About ETOPS FLT, Some of our pilots in our company have some opinion discrepencis.
And I need your opinions (or answers) about the following questions based on official published document about ETOPS FLT.
(I really need official documents about this.. not just personal opinion..)
Here's the questions.
1. Is it possible that one flight leg has more than one ETOPS FLT Segments?
2. If multiple ETOPS segments are possible in one flight leg, How many EEP(ETOPS Entry Point)s do we have in this flight ? (The entry point of the First ETOPS Segment is the only EEP? or Every entry point of each ETOPS segment is also EEP ?)
3. If we have more than one EEP, before reaching every EEP do we have to check the suitablilty(WX and etc..) of the enroute alternate airports of the ETOPS segment about to enter ?
4. Before reaching EEP of the first ETOPS segment, do we have to check suitablilty of enroute alternate airports of all the other ETOPS segments also? And in this case, if enroute alternate airports of the first ETOPS segment is suitable but one of the other ETOPS segments' enroute alternate airport is not, (And we can't find any other adequate airport suitable to use) Can we enter the first ETOPS segment ?
5. Let's say we're flying a mutiple ETOPS segmented flight, and now about to reaching the EEP of the last ETOPS segment. We checked WX of the enrount alternate aiport and found out it is below the minimum. And also obviously there is no other adequate airport we can use. Now.. Do we have to divert to nearest suitable airport even if our airplane is completely normal ? Is it illegal to continue the flight to the destinaton airport in captain's discretion ? (What if captain decides it's safer to continue the flight to the destination than to land in a unfamiliar airport in the middle of no where ?)
That'll be all of my questions.
And.. My opinions about above questions is
1. Of course one flight leg can has more than one ETOPS FLT Segments.
2. Every entry point of each ETOPS segment is also EEP.
3. Before reaching every EEP we have to check the suitablilty of the enroute alternate airport (But only for the ETOPS segment about to enter, checking the other ETOPS segment's alternate airport is not mandatory)
4. We can pass the EEP only if we can verify designated ETOPS segment's alternate airport is suitable to use. (Doesn't matter the rest of ETOPS segment's alternate airports are suitable or not at this point.) (This case let's say we don't have any other adequate airport for the ETOPS segment)
5. It is illegal to pass the EEP if our enroute alternate airport of that segment is not suitable (and no other adequate airport we can use) even though our aircraft is completely normal and captain thinks it's safer to fly to the destination.
I'm pretty sure my above oppinion is right.
But the problem is my chief pilot doesn't think so.
And he's about to change our company ETOPS policy.
(He thinks when we do the ETOPS flight only the first EEP is matter. And after that point we can fly all the way down to the destination as far as our airplane is in normal condition. He thinks we have only one EEP and one EXP in one flight leg even if we have multiple ETOPS segments- First EEP is the only EEP and last EXP is the only EXP.)
That's why I need some official documents to back up my opinion.
I'm waiting for your opinions about this.
Thank you and Happy new year again!!
Last edited by plainsoul; 8th Jan 2005 at 09:55.
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I believe you are getting yourself confused here by ETOPS planning minima which are applicable at the planning stage ie in the crewroom and the rules which are applicable once you are airborne. Obviously the TAFs must have met the planning minima for the flight to have been planned and remember the part of the TAF which is used for planning purposes is a one hour window either side of the time you would be expected to arrive there if you diverted. At the oceanic entry point it is quite possible that the enroute alternate may be 3 hours away so the current actual may have little relevance other than as a guide as to whether the TAF is likely to be right. At any time on an ETOPS sector it is usual to have a large number of alternates available, the only exception off the top of my head being parts of the Pacific, so if the planned ETOPS enroute alternate falls below minima but you still have a number of suitable alternates then I can see no possible justification to divert. From what you have said in your question I would say you are absolutely wrong and your chief pilot is probably right.
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Plainsoul....
If you are talking about a flight where you operate a ETOPS segment, then fly within 60 minutes of an airport, then fly ETOPS again. (For the sake of discussion, over the pacific crossing Hawaii) then i would say that EACH ETOPS segment must be treated individually, the rules that apply to the first segment will also apply to the second and subsequent segments.
Suggest you google for FAA AC120-42A, or the Boeing ETOPS Guide from myboeingfleet.com
Mutt.
If you are talking about a flight where you operate a ETOPS segment, then fly within 60 minutes of an airport, then fly ETOPS again. (For the sake of discussion, over the pacific crossing Hawaii) then i would say that EACH ETOPS segment must be treated individually, the rules that apply to the first segment will also apply to the second and subsequent segments.
Suggest you google for FAA AC120-42A, or the Boeing ETOPS Guide from myboeingfleet.com
Mutt.
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Captain Capstan....
Thank you for your opinion.
But I'm not confused with ETOPS planning minima and actual minima for the actual flight.
And this case as I wrote, We don't have many ETOPS adequate airport for the ETOPS segment.
For simplify my question let's say we have only one adequate airport for each ETOPS segment. (Actually we do fly some ETOPS flights which have two ETOPS segments and each segment has only one adequate airport)
Thank you for your opinion.
But I'm not confused with ETOPS planning minima and actual minima for the actual flight.
And this case as I wrote, We don't have many ETOPS adequate airport for the ETOPS segment.
For simplify my question let's say we have only one adequate airport for each ETOPS segment. (Actually we do fly some ETOPS flights which have two ETOPS segments and each segment has only one adequate airport)
Last edited by plainsoul; 8th Jan 2005 at 20:51.
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The JAA document which covers ETOPS is ACJ / 20X6 ( the FAA & ICAO versions should be very similar ).
Let’s remind ourselves of the definitions:
Thus, any time a twin-engine Public Transport jet aircraft is operating beyond 60 mins ( still air single engine cruise speed ) from an adequate airport it must therefore be operating in accordance with ETOPS – and ipso facto is operating in the ‘ETOPS Segment’ – that is until it transits the ETOPS exit point (EEP) when it reverts to normal flight rules.
It is certainly feasible that a flight could have more than one ETOPS Segment, and that for this to happen there must be multiple EEP's & EXP's.
ACJ/ 20X6 also says this:
Basically, prior to passing the ETOPS Entry Point (EEP), all ETOPS conditions must be evaluated. If any changes preclude a safe approach and landing at the alternate, a revised alternate must be selected and the flight plan changed accordingly. If a suitable alternate cannot be determined then one should not proceed beyond the EEP. However, once beyond the EEP it all comes down to Captain’s discretion.
What your Chief Pilot is attempting is to say that the only EEP that matters is the first one, and accordingly ignore any intermeddiate EXP's & EEP's - where the aircaft might not actually be in an ETOPS segment of flight - as this then allows the Captain to use discretion ( to the max ) wherein any intermediate / non-ETOPS Segments are treated as if they are part of one single ETOPS Segment.
I can certainly understand why your Chief Pilot might want to do this, but one might also say that this seems to be playing a bit fast and loose with the rules for ETOPS versus non-ETOPS flight.
Let’s remind ourselves of the definitions:
Extended Range Operations (EROPS): For the purpose of the ACJ, extended range operations are those flights conducted over a route that contains a point further than one hour flying time at the approved one-engine-inoperative cruise speed (under standard conditions in still air) from an adequate aerodrome.
Extended Twin Operations (ETOPS): An Extended Range Operations (EROPS) flight that is conducted by an aircraft having only two engines.
EEP: The extended range entry point is the point on the aeroplane's outbound route which is one hour flying time at the approved one-engine-inoperative cruise speed (under standard conditions in still air) from an adequate aerodrome.
EXP: The point on the aeroplane’s ETOPS route where the flight enters the 60 minute coverage of an adequate aerodrome. Nb. One some flights the destination aerodrome may define the ETOPS Exit Point.
ETOPS Segment: This starts at the ETOPS Entry Point (EEP) and ends when the flight is again back, and remains within, the 60 minute area from an adequate aerodrome, e.g. when transiting the ETOPS Exit Point (EXP).
Extended Twin Operations (ETOPS): An Extended Range Operations (EROPS) flight that is conducted by an aircraft having only two engines.
EEP: The extended range entry point is the point on the aeroplane's outbound route which is one hour flying time at the approved one-engine-inoperative cruise speed (under standard conditions in still air) from an adequate aerodrome.
EXP: The point on the aeroplane’s ETOPS route where the flight enters the 60 minute coverage of an adequate aerodrome. Nb. One some flights the destination aerodrome may define the ETOPS Exit Point.
ETOPS Segment: This starts at the ETOPS Entry Point (EEP) and ends when the flight is again back, and remains within, the 60 minute area from an adequate aerodrome, e.g. when transiting the ETOPS Exit Point (EXP).
It is certainly feasible that a flight could have more than one ETOPS Segment, and that for this to happen there must be multiple EEP's & EXP's.
ACJ/ 20X6 also says this:
10.d.(5) Alternate Aerodromes
An aeroplane should not depart on an extended range operation unless the required take-off, destination and alternate aerodromes, including suitable en-route alternate aerodromes, to be used in the event of propulsion system failure or aeroplane system failure(s) which require a diversion, are listed in the cockpit documentation (e.g. computerised flight plan). Suitable en-route alternates should also be identified and listed in operational flight plan for all cases where the planned route of flight contains a point more than one hour flying time at the one-engine-inoperative speed from an adequate aerodrome. Since these suitable en-route alternates serve a different purpose than the destination alternate aerodrome and would normally be used only in the event of an engine failure or the loss of primary aeroplane systems, an aerodrome should not be listed as a suitable en-route alternate unless:
10.d.(5).(i) The landing distances required as specified in the AFM for the altitude of the aerodrome, for the runway expected to be used, taking into account wind conditions, runway surface conditions, and aeroplane handling characteristics, permit the aeroplane to be stopped within the landing distance available as declared by the aerodrome authorities and computed in accordance with JAR-OPS 1.
10.d.(5).(ii) The aerodrome services and facilities are adequate to permit the conduct of an instrument approach procedure to the runway expected to be used while complying with the applicable aerodrome operating minima.
10.d.(5).(iii) The latest available forecast weather conditions for a period commencing one hour before the established earliest time of landing and ending one hour after the established latest time of landing at that aerodrome, equals or exceeds the authorised weather minima for en-route alternate aerodromes in Appendix 3. In addition, for the same period, the forecast crosswind component, including gusts, for the landing runway expected to be used should not exceed the maximum permitted crosswind for single engine landing taking into account the runway condition (dry, wet or contaminated).
10.d.(5).(iv) During the course of the flight, the flight crew are to continue to remain informed of any significant changes in conditions at designated en-route alternates. Prior to proceeding beyond the extended range entry point, the forecast weather for the time periods established in paragraph 10.d.(5)(iii), aeroplane status, fuel remaining, runway surface conditions, landing distances and aerodrome services and facilities at designated en-route alternates should be evaluated. If any conditions are identified (such as weather forecast below landing minima) which would preclude safe approach and landing, then the pilot should take an appropriate course of action.
10.d.(5).(v) In addition, the operator's programme should provide flight crews with information on adequate aerodromes appropriate to the route to be flown which are not forecast to meet Appendix 3 en-route alternate weather minima. Aerodrome facility information and other appropriate planning data concerning these aerodromes should be provided to flight crews for use when executing a diversion. Note: The alternate aerodromes should be chosen in order to make it possible for the aeroplane to reach the alternate while complying with the requirements, especially with regard to performance (flight over obstacles) and/or oxygen considerations.
An aeroplane should not depart on an extended range operation unless the required take-off, destination and alternate aerodromes, including suitable en-route alternate aerodromes, to be used in the event of propulsion system failure or aeroplane system failure(s) which require a diversion, are listed in the cockpit documentation (e.g. computerised flight plan). Suitable en-route alternates should also be identified and listed in operational flight plan for all cases where the planned route of flight contains a point more than one hour flying time at the one-engine-inoperative speed from an adequate aerodrome. Since these suitable en-route alternates serve a different purpose than the destination alternate aerodrome and would normally be used only in the event of an engine failure or the loss of primary aeroplane systems, an aerodrome should not be listed as a suitable en-route alternate unless:
10.d.(5).(i) The landing distances required as specified in the AFM for the altitude of the aerodrome, for the runway expected to be used, taking into account wind conditions, runway surface conditions, and aeroplane handling characteristics, permit the aeroplane to be stopped within the landing distance available as declared by the aerodrome authorities and computed in accordance with JAR-OPS 1.
10.d.(5).(ii) The aerodrome services and facilities are adequate to permit the conduct of an instrument approach procedure to the runway expected to be used while complying with the applicable aerodrome operating minima.
10.d.(5).(iii) The latest available forecast weather conditions for a period commencing one hour before the established earliest time of landing and ending one hour after the established latest time of landing at that aerodrome, equals or exceeds the authorised weather minima for en-route alternate aerodromes in Appendix 3. In addition, for the same period, the forecast crosswind component, including gusts, for the landing runway expected to be used should not exceed the maximum permitted crosswind for single engine landing taking into account the runway condition (dry, wet or contaminated).
10.d.(5).(iv) During the course of the flight, the flight crew are to continue to remain informed of any significant changes in conditions at designated en-route alternates. Prior to proceeding beyond the extended range entry point, the forecast weather for the time periods established in paragraph 10.d.(5)(iii), aeroplane status, fuel remaining, runway surface conditions, landing distances and aerodrome services and facilities at designated en-route alternates should be evaluated. If any conditions are identified (such as weather forecast below landing minima) which would preclude safe approach and landing, then the pilot should take an appropriate course of action.
10.d.(5).(v) In addition, the operator's programme should provide flight crews with information on adequate aerodromes appropriate to the route to be flown which are not forecast to meet Appendix 3 en-route alternate weather minima. Aerodrome facility information and other appropriate planning data concerning these aerodromes should be provided to flight crews for use when executing a diversion. Note: The alternate aerodromes should be chosen in order to make it possible for the aeroplane to reach the alternate while complying with the requirements, especially with regard to performance (flight over obstacles) and/or oxygen considerations.
What your Chief Pilot is attempting is to say that the only EEP that matters is the first one, and accordingly ignore any intermeddiate EXP's & EEP's - where the aircaft might not actually be in an ETOPS segment of flight - as this then allows the Captain to use discretion ( to the max ) wherein any intermediate / non-ETOPS Segments are treated as if they are part of one single ETOPS Segment.
I can certainly understand why your Chief Pilot might want to do this, but one might also say that this seems to be playing a bit fast and loose with the rules for ETOPS versus non-ETOPS flight.
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Is it possible to download ACJ 20x6 somewhere? I looked at jaa.nl but couldn't find anything.
I suppose one has to BUY it from them - what a great way to improve aviation safety, to keep the information from the people that are supposed to follow/apply it...
If anyone has some information material to spare I truly appreciate it!
Thanks!
[email protected]
Edit: I came to think of a question;
Could ETOPS be applied on, for example, a night flight in Europe when many airports are closed and lets say there is wide-spread fog. In this situation there could be segments of the flights that would be +60min S/E from an alternate.
I suppose one has to BUY it from them - what a great way to improve aviation safety, to keep the information from the people that are supposed to follow/apply it...
If anyone has some information material to spare I truly appreciate it!
Thanks!
[email protected]
Edit: I came to think of a question;
Could ETOPS be applied on, for example, a night flight in Europe when many airports are closed and lets say there is wide-spread fog. In this situation there could be segments of the flights that would be +60min S/E from an alternate.
Last edited by VR-HDB; 8th Jan 2005 at 13:17.
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VR-HBD,
With present regulations we are required to stay within 60 minutes of an "Adequate" airport, we dont have to check if the airport is "Suitable". We can therefore overfly continental europe when all the airports are closed!
Mutt.
With present regulations we are required to stay within 60 minutes of an "Adequate" airport, we dont have to check if the airport is "Suitable". We can therefore overfly continental europe when all the airports are closed!
Mutt.
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I had it confused for awhile there, the 60min rule is from an "Adequate" airport.
But when you say that you can overfly Europe if all the airports are closed, then you wouldn't have an Adequate airport either that is "available at the anticipated time of use" - do you mean that you have airports that are open but the wx is below minima?
But when you say that you can overfly Europe if all the airports are closed, then you wouldn't have an Adequate airport either that is "available at the anticipated time of use" - do you mean that you have airports that are open but the wx is below minima?
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VR-HDB
Sec. 121.161 Airplane limitations: Type of route.
(a) Unless authorized by the Administrator, based on the character of the terrain, the kind of operation, or the performance of the airplane to be used, no certificate holder may operate two-engine or three-engine airplanes (except a three-engine turbine powered airplane) over a route that contains a
point farther than 1 hour flying time (in still air at normal cruising speed with one engine inoperative) from an adequate airport.
Will pay a visit to dispatch and see how they interpret this in relation to night closure of airports, rather than weather closures.
Mutt.
Sec. 121.161 Airplane limitations: Type of route.
(a) Unless authorized by the Administrator, based on the character of the terrain, the kind of operation, or the performance of the airplane to be used, no certificate holder may operate two-engine or three-engine airplanes (except a three-engine turbine powered airplane) over a route that contains a
point farther than 1 hour flying time (in still air at normal cruising speed with one engine inoperative) from an adequate airport.
Will pay a visit to dispatch and see how they interpret this in relation to night closure of airports, rather than weather closures.
Mutt.
Last edited by mutt; 9th Jan 2005 at 16:19.
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From CAP513 (only reference I could find):
Adequate
For the purpose of this CAP, an adequate aerodrome is an aerodrome which the operator of the aircraft considers to be adequate, having regard to his responsibilities pursuant to Article 28(1)(c) of the Air Navigation Order (1989) and Regulations 7 and 15 of the Air Navigation (General) Regulations (1981).
In particular, it should be expected that at the anticipated time of use:
a) the aerodrome will be available, and equipped with necessary ancillary services, such as ATC, sufficient lighting, communications, weather reporting, navaids, and safety cover; and
b) at least one letdown aid (ground radar would so qualify) will be available for an instrument approach.
- - - - - - -
Isn't "available" the same as open?
Mutt, any chance you could e-mail me a copy of the Boeing ETOPS - [email protected] should work.
Thanks!
Adequate
For the purpose of this CAP, an adequate aerodrome is an aerodrome which the operator of the aircraft considers to be adequate, having regard to his responsibilities pursuant to Article 28(1)(c) of the Air Navigation Order (1989) and Regulations 7 and 15 of the Air Navigation (General) Regulations (1981).
In particular, it should be expected that at the anticipated time of use:
a) the aerodrome will be available, and equipped with necessary ancillary services, such as ATC, sufficient lighting, communications, weather reporting, navaids, and safety cover; and
b) at least one letdown aid (ground radar would so qualify) will be available for an instrument approach.
- - - - - - -
Isn't "available" the same as open?
Mutt, any chance you could e-mail me a copy of the Boeing ETOPS - [email protected] should work.
Thanks!
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VR-HDB
Nope "Available" and "open" are not quite the same.
An adequate airport must be available with all services etc but can be closed due weather, therefore it is not "Open"
A Suitable airport has all the same requirements as an "Adequate" airport but includes the requirement to be open with specific weather requirements.
Plainsoul
The documents referred to by Mutt for Boeing and FAA are "ADVISORY" Airlines take these and adopt either in part or whole the procedures (If subject to FAR's) and then have these procedures ratified by their applicable regulatory authority.
I'm not 100% with JAR but they are similar but not the same.
Depending on which set of rules your company adopted and had certified you are most probably correct, in your beliefs.
The intent is that you shall not enter an ETOPS segment unless you have a "SUITABLE" Airport with weather minima as specified in your ETOPS specs, this may or may not be the same as at fligh planning, but generally is the same as that required for an enroute alternate, if at least one suitable airport is not available within your particular ETOPS flight time limit then you cannot enter.
However if after you enter it goes down or closes it becomes a "Captains decision".
This is basically what Boeing and the FAA reccomend but as I said they are "Advisory" documents that must be adopted.
Hope this helps.
Nope "Available" and "open" are not quite the same.
An adequate airport must be available with all services etc but can be closed due weather, therefore it is not "Open"
A Suitable airport has all the same requirements as an "Adequate" airport but includes the requirement to be open with specific weather requirements.
Plainsoul
The documents referred to by Mutt for Boeing and FAA are "ADVISORY" Airlines take these and adopt either in part or whole the procedures (If subject to FAR's) and then have these procedures ratified by their applicable regulatory authority.
I'm not 100% with JAR but they are similar but not the same.
Depending on which set of rules your company adopted and had certified you are most probably correct, in your beliefs.
The intent is that you shall not enter an ETOPS segment unless you have a "SUITABLE" Airport with weather minima as specified in your ETOPS specs, this may or may not be the same as at fligh planning, but generally is the same as that required for an enroute alternate, if at least one suitable airport is not available within your particular ETOPS flight time limit then you cannot enter.
However if after you enter it goes down or closes it becomes a "Captains decision".
This is basically what Boeing and the FAA reccomend but as I said they are "Advisory" documents that must be adopted.
Hope this helps.
