Preflight preparation
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Preflight preparation
Hey all,
I was wondering if any of you ppruners could help me out? How long does it take you to prep your aircraft before your first departure of the day? That is from the time you step foot on to the plane to the time you are ready to call for start clearance.
I fly the A330 and my company allots 30 minutes for that process. I find that 30 minutes is just sufficient if there are no distractions and not many defered defects to read up. But in most circumstances there are numerous distractions from the cabin and plenty defects to sort out. In the end 30 minutes doesn't seem very realistic and we are normally pressed for time.
How do you guys fair?
Thanks in advance......
I was wondering if any of you ppruners could help me out? How long does it take you to prep your aircraft before your first departure of the day? That is from the time you step foot on to the plane to the time you are ready to call for start clearance.
I fly the A330 and my company allots 30 minutes for that process. I find that 30 minutes is just sufficient if there are no distractions and not many defered defects to read up. But in most circumstances there are numerous distractions from the cabin and plenty defects to sort out. In the end 30 minutes doesn't seem very realistic and we are normally pressed for time.
How do you guys fair?
Thanks in advance......
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Hi Smoozesailing,
30 minutes seems about right as the minimum time for a B777, I imagine similar to the A330. That's all well and good if there are no snags, but when several Deferred Defects, associated MEL restrictions, flying with a new trainee etc. get in the way at least 45 minutes or more is needed. Not much room for error in 30 minutes.
Regards,
Old Smokey
30 minutes seems about right as the minimum time for a B777, I imagine similar to the A330. That's all well and good if there are no snags, but when several Deferred Defects, associated MEL restrictions, flying with a new trainee etc. get in the way at least 45 minutes or more is needed. Not much room for error in 30 minutes.
Regards,
Old Smokey
When I operated the B737 we used to say the 45 mins was ideal - you could do it in 30 mins but the extra 15 mins allowed for "cock-ups"!
Mind you when we travelled pax on an Irish airline (who simulator we bought time from) which shall remain nameless, I used to joke that they had specially modified B737s which just had an ON/OFF button. The record I observed after pax had boarded, flight deck arrived and we were pushing back within 10 mins!!
Mind you when we travelled pax on an Irish airline (who simulator we bought time from) which shall remain nameless, I used to joke that they had specially modified B737s which just had an ON/OFF button. The record I observed after pax had boarded, flight deck arrived and we were pushing back within 10 mins!!
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During my time on Classic B747, we three arrived at the airplane about 60 minutes prior to push, and the flight planning info/paperwork was delivered to us just at/after arrival onboard.
The pilots had a mildly busy time, but the Flight Engineer, with all the Deferred Defects, MELs and refuelling to attend to, together with checking over the takeoff performance figures and completing the Maintenance Logbook to the point of getting the Captains signature, had to really 'keep the ball rolling' to get ready in time.
I will always be REALLY glad the 747s I operated had a professional FE aboard to attend to those tasks, especially when we were operating out of airports with no maintenance presence at all, he organized everything!
Worked well!
Cheers
The pilots had a mildly busy time, but the Flight Engineer, with all the Deferred Defects, MELs and refuelling to attend to, together with checking over the takeoff performance figures and completing the Maintenance Logbook to the point of getting the Captains signature, had to really 'keep the ball rolling' to get ready in time.
I will always be REALLY glad the 747s I operated had a professional FE aboard to attend to those tasks, especially when we were operating out of airports with no maintenance presence at all, he organized everything!
Worked well!
Cheers
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Thanks for all the feedback guys. In my outfit, we are given 1 hour for preflight that is from reporting at the airport to departure. With the size of the airport we operate out of we seldom make it to the aircraft with 30 minutes to spare. We have been rushed to complete the preflight and even after numerous attempts to get the company to change, they have been adament the 1 hour is enough. 80-90% of the time the cargo loaders and passengers are slower to get in and therefore mask the delays that the pilots make. So the problem continues to go "unnoticed".
Without reverting to disruptive industrial actions, does anybody have any suggestions how to tackle this problem?
Once again, thanks for the replies.
Without reverting to disruptive industrial actions, does anybody have any suggestions how to tackle this problem?
Once again, thanks for the replies.
>Without reverting to disruptive industrial actions, does anybody have any suggestions how to tackle this problem?<
Report 1 hour before as the company dictates and when you get to the aircraft do everything you need to do at a "normal" rate - if the a/c goes late and/or you miss the slot so be it! Trouble is most pilots don't want to start their duty day be departing late on the first sector.
In one company I flew with we had one Captain who reported exactly one hour before departure although most other crew members would be at least 15 mins early. On occasions he missed the slot but then surely flight safety and not expedition is the prime concern?
Not sure what CAP 371 says these days but there used to be a proviso that said that the Captain had the right to bring the report time forward if he/she deemed it appropriate.
Report 1 hour before as the company dictates and when you get to the aircraft do everything you need to do at a "normal" rate - if the a/c goes late and/or you miss the slot so be it! Trouble is most pilots don't want to start their duty day be departing late on the first sector.
In one company I flew with we had one Captain who reported exactly one hour before departure although most other crew members would be at least 15 mins early. On occasions he missed the slot but then surely flight safety and not expedition is the prime concern?
Not sure what CAP 371 says these days but there used to be a proviso that said that the Captain had the right to bring the report time forward if he/she deemed it appropriate.
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I bet that captain endeared himself to the other crew members who presumably had already covered much of that captains share of the pre-flight tasks ?
The report time can be adjusted if there are reasons to do so. Obviously that would need co-ordination with the rest of the crew with sufficient advance planning.
I suppose I could report at STD -1hr and still get the flight away on time, but this would preclude sitting down with a cup of tea at the planning stage, general chit chat, and the other social niceties that make a good start to a (hopefully) stress free day. In reality this is no different to how professionals behave in other walks of life. I appreciate that there may be occaisions when minimum rest requirements might impinge on this, but for the most part I can't see the achievement in reporting at the deadline and then going late if that is indeed the result.
I would personally consider it to be rude and disrespectful of me to turn up at the reporting deadline in order to regularly make a point. Indeed I do find it so when other albeit rare individuals make such a point.
If pre-flight reporting times are genuinely insufficient, then the matter should be taken up with the Company in the first instance, and if that fails with the regulatory authority.
The report time can be adjusted if there are reasons to do so. Obviously that would need co-ordination with the rest of the crew with sufficient advance planning.
I suppose I could report at STD -1hr and still get the flight away on time, but this would preclude sitting down with a cup of tea at the planning stage, general chit chat, and the other social niceties that make a good start to a (hopefully) stress free day. In reality this is no different to how professionals behave in other walks of life. I appreciate that there may be occaisions when minimum rest requirements might impinge on this, but for the most part I can't see the achievement in reporting at the deadline and then going late if that is indeed the result.
I would personally consider it to be rude and disrespectful of me to turn up at the reporting deadline in order to regularly make a point. Indeed I do find it so when other albeit rare individuals make such a point.
If pre-flight reporting times are genuinely insufficient, then the matter should be taken up with the Company in the first instance, and if that fails with the regulatory authority.
Bealzebub, my sentiments entirely.
And yes - you are right about other crew members compensating for said Captain's action!
Most of us act professionally and like you I would rather have my tea and biccies having reported early and go about the pre flight preparation in a timely manner.
Trouble is when the Company management are not as "reasonable" as you or I and refuse to budge and the CAA's track record in this area is not, in my experience, too brilliant.
And yes - you are right about other crew members compensating for said Captain's action!
Most of us act professionally and like you I would rather have my tea and biccies having reported early and go about the pre flight preparation in a timely manner.
Trouble is when the Company management are not as "reasonable" as you or I and refuse to budge and the CAA's track record in this area is not, in my experience, too brilliant.
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This subject came up in CHIRP a short while ago - be worth checking. Same sort of thing - pressure being put on pilots to turn up ahead of report time, even with minimum rest, and pilots not happy with it. I think the final CAA response was that if the standard reporting time is regularly not long enough then it should be changed.
When you are doing a number of long duties on little more than min rest I do feel I should spend those extra minutes at home rather than at work.
However, I do get my a*se in gear when I get to the aircraft and we're always ready to go way before the cabin is.
When you are doing a number of long duties on little more than min rest I do feel I should spend those extra minutes at home rather than at work.
However, I do get my a*se in gear when I get to the aircraft and we're always ready to go way before the cabin is.
Our Sop's dictate that we leave the crew briefing centre (CBC) 1hr 10 (or is it 1h15) before STD, at aircraft 50 mins or so to go, depending on where it's parked.
We generally get to CBC at 1hr30 - 1 h45 before STD, the best part tho' is that the duty period starts 1hr before STD, ie what the flight time limitations are based on . Yup , our duty period starts after we are on the bus to the air plane. Cant quite get my head around it.
To be fair we do get picked up and taken to work ,which in itself is great , but it would appear to be as much for the companies benefit as it ours.....less pay, etc , less reason to complain as someone else is doing the driving so we don't get so tired... although the standard of our drivers is , well, um, er , lets just say the drive is the most stressful part of the day...
This is for long haul B777, A330/A345/A343, you can work out the company from that...
We generally get to CBC at 1hr30 - 1 h45 before STD, the best part tho' is that the duty period starts 1hr before STD, ie what the flight time limitations are based on . Yup , our duty period starts after we are on the bus to the air plane. Cant quite get my head around it.
To be fair we do get picked up and taken to work ,which in itself is great , but it would appear to be as much for the companies benefit as it ours.....less pay, etc , less reason to complain as someone else is doing the driving so we don't get so tired... although the standard of our drivers is , well, um, er , lets just say the drive is the most stressful part of the day...
This is for long haul B777, A330/A345/A343, you can work out the company from that...
