Iraqi Over Flights
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Iraqi Over Flights
I am interested to know the views of some of you guys regarding, what now has become the common practice, commercial airliners flying over Iraq.
I recently flew over Iraq in this fashion and was a tad worried. OK flying at night and high is as safe as it's going to get but it's still not 100% safe flying across a war zone. If a cabin pressurization problem was to occur what action due you take? Decend to 10000 ft over Bagdhad.... i don't think so.
Also what alternates due you use if you need to land sharpish, Kuwait or Amman?
I recently flew over Iraq in this fashion and was a tad worried. OK flying at night and high is as safe as it's going to get but it's still not 100% safe flying across a war zone. If a cabin pressurization problem was to occur what action due you take? Decend to 10000 ft over Bagdhad.... i don't think so.
Also what alternates due you use if you need to land sharpish, Kuwait or Amman?
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I've been flying in and out of Iraq for the last 5 months, into Baghdad, Balad and Mosul. It's risky flying in there, however you are well safe above 18000'. We needed an additional insurance for operations in and over Iraq, which is valid for day operations only, so I don't think airlines are overflying Iraq at night.
There's no overflying over Baghdad airport/city for airlines which are just over flying Iraq, the airway takes you well away from Baghdad. So even if an airline would loose the cabin and descended to 14000', you're ok, because you are away from the hotspot. You're just flying over farm fields, and no cities. Closest you would be to Baghad is about 25Nm's.
Remember the airbus of DHL got shot at around 8000' when departing Baghdad. These guys were getting used to flying in there, and decided to fly straight in and depart straight out, day after day. This is a no no, as you spiral in and out of there, leaving the spiral at FL150 to proceed enroute. This procedure goes for all airfields in Iraq. Safe margin of 5Nm's of the aiport in most airfields, Baghdad requires spiral in and out over the airfield perimeter, which requires steep turns
If one would decide to divert (going southbound), I would recommend to divert to Kuwait. Exit Iraq via TAMIM then proceed FALKA to KUA.
Hope this helps....
There's no overflying over Baghdad airport/city for airlines which are just over flying Iraq, the airway takes you well away from Baghdad. So even if an airline would loose the cabin and descended to 14000', you're ok, because you are away from the hotspot. You're just flying over farm fields, and no cities. Closest you would be to Baghad is about 25Nm's.
Remember the airbus of DHL got shot at around 8000' when departing Baghdad. These guys were getting used to flying in there, and decided to fly straight in and depart straight out, day after day. This is a no no, as you spiral in and out of there, leaving the spiral at FL150 to proceed enroute. This procedure goes for all airfields in Iraq. Safe margin of 5Nm's of the aiport in most airfields, Baghdad requires spiral in and out over the airfield perimeter, which requires steep turns
If one would decide to divert (going southbound), I would recommend to divert to Kuwait. Exit Iraq via TAMIM then proceed FALKA to KUA.
Hope this helps....
Last edited by wheelchock; 28th Apr 2004 at 11:32.
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I wasn't overly concerned but it would be an interesting scenario if a wide bodied pax aircraft did need to descend over Iraq.
I can confirm that the aircraft i flew as pax on did indeed fly over central Iraq and i believe that this is a common practice. In fact when i sit outside my home in Baghdad Airport i often see high level traffic flying straight and level with ACW/Strobe lights on which i now presume to be civil traffic. This is above all the mid level F16 traffic on bombing and recon missions that keep me awake at night.
I can confirm that the aircraft i flew as pax on did indeed fly over central Iraq and i believe that this is a common practice. In fact when i sit outside my home in Baghdad Airport i often see high level traffic flying straight and level with ACW/Strobe lights on which i now presume to be civil traffic. This is above all the mid level F16 traffic on bombing and recon missions that keep me awake at night.
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In case of an emergency descend: Isn't it so you need to have an X amount of time for your passenger supply and cockpit supply. I'd say most commercial jetliners will be able to get out of Iraq at their cruising level in about 30-45 minutes. Stay on altitude and start descend prior to Tamim or whichever border.
Other then that we cruise regulary between (FL120 - FL 250) during day & night so far I haven't had an incident at these altitudes, might be because we do not use the external light such as strobes at lower altitudes.
In my honest opinion Iraq is not the worst place to fly over think about all the "unrest" and planned attacks in Rijadh. Just food for thoughts.
P.s. wide body planes fly in to Baghdad atleast twice a day (TMG for DHL)
Coastrider
Other then that we cruise regulary between (FL120 - FL 250) during day & night so far I haven't had an incident at these altitudes, might be because we do not use the external light such as strobes at lower altitudes.
In my honest opinion Iraq is not the worst place to fly over think about all the "unrest" and planned attacks in Rijadh. Just food for thoughts.
P.s. wide body planes fly in to Baghdad atleast twice a day (TMG for DHL)
Coastrider
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No one needs to tell me about the wide bodied aircraft in BIAP as i fly in and out of Baghdad on the MNG on a regular basis. In around 15 mins to be exact.
However these are cargo and i always take a big intake of breath before climbing on board. Perhaps it's the fact that i had to watch my own bird OODLL get hit and burn for 30 mins that makes me a bit jumpy.
I'm also aware that at during Nov/Dec/Jan a plane had "technical difficulties" on an average of every two or three weeks in or around BIAP. The fact that the USAF are moving ops to Balad and no longer operate C17 or C5s into BIAP on a regular basis tells you something. A C5 having "engine trouble" at 06:30 in the morning looks pretty impressive. Didn't realize they carried so many flares!
So as i now see commercial pax flights flying above me i hope you understand my concern. I'm glad that they can maintain height and get to safer airspace if they were to experience an in flight problem. If any of them needed to divert to BIAP i'll be there to meet them and our handling rates are very reasonable
Thanks for all the responses so far.
However these are cargo and i always take a big intake of breath before climbing on board. Perhaps it's the fact that i had to watch my own bird OODLL get hit and burn for 30 mins that makes me a bit jumpy.
I'm also aware that at during Nov/Dec/Jan a plane had "technical difficulties" on an average of every two or three weeks in or around BIAP. The fact that the USAF are moving ops to Balad and no longer operate C17 or C5s into BIAP on a regular basis tells you something. A C5 having "engine trouble" at 06:30 in the morning looks pretty impressive. Didn't realize they carried so many flares!
So as i now see commercial pax flights flying above me i hope you understand my concern. I'm glad that they can maintain height and get to safer airspace if they were to experience an in flight problem. If any of them needed to divert to BIAP i'll be there to meet them and our handling rates are very reasonable
Thanks for all the responses so far.
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So as i now see commercial pax flights flying above me i hope you understand my concern
If you really are Ground Ops Manager in Baghdad, I suggest reading the Iraq AIP, which is mandatory for all operators in Iraq to have on board. You'll see there that there's nothing dangerous for commercial traffic over flying Iraq airspace...
Flying in and out of Iraq is different, there are risks of being shot at. We have been lucky for the last 5 months, but then again we also change our arrivals and departures out of Iraq very frequent.
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An engine failure is one thing, but what about something that would facilitate an emergency descent and immediate landing, like an explosive decompression, fuel contamination, fire, both pilots having eaten the fish et al?
Then you really would be landing in them middle of a war zone?
I crossed over Iraq in a KLM 767 en route to BAH. Made me think.
Then you really would be landing in them middle of a war zone?
I crossed over Iraq in a KLM 767 en route to BAH. Made me think.
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Wheelchock
You're missing the point a bit. All i asked was for views regarding the flying over Iraq and what to do if there was a full emergency and a decent initiated, and to where. I fly all over the country on a regular basis on both military and civilian aircraft so i fully understand the safe practices associated with flying in Iraqi airspace both at high and low level. I never said flying at altitude over Iraq is unsafe because i know that it is as safe as it's going to get. Its just the going down bit that sometimes isn't, which in theory could happen to an aircraft in distress. That is the only point i am trying to make.
And why do people believe that all the Iraqi militia live in and around Baghdad?
FYI i have read the AIP and many other documents, not much to do during a typical evening in Iraq!!, and i also have read the overflight application form issued by RAMCC.
Please see the diclaimer below that is at the top of the overflight application form filled out by all airlines wanting to fly over Iraq.
"WARNING: All operators are advised that there are ongoing military flight operations in Iraq. There are continuing reports of indiscriminate missile attacks on aircraft operating in Iraq, primarily at low altitudes but occasionally at high altitudes. Therefore, operators undertaking flights within the Baghdad FIR shall do so at their own risk. Operators should review NOTAMs regularly for any changes that may affect the information contained within this document.
"
Is an airline really considering the needs of the pax on board when filling out this document, or could cost savings be involved? I wonder?
You're missing the point a bit. All i asked was for views regarding the flying over Iraq and what to do if there was a full emergency and a decent initiated, and to where. I fly all over the country on a regular basis on both military and civilian aircraft so i fully understand the safe practices associated with flying in Iraqi airspace both at high and low level. I never said flying at altitude over Iraq is unsafe because i know that it is as safe as it's going to get. Its just the going down bit that sometimes isn't, which in theory could happen to an aircraft in distress. That is the only point i am trying to make.
And why do people believe that all the Iraqi militia live in and around Baghdad?
FYI i have read the AIP and many other documents, not much to do during a typical evening in Iraq!!, and i also have read the overflight application form issued by RAMCC.
Please see the diclaimer below that is at the top of the overflight application form filled out by all airlines wanting to fly over Iraq.
"WARNING: All operators are advised that there are ongoing military flight operations in Iraq. There are continuing reports of indiscriminate missile attacks on aircraft operating in Iraq, primarily at low altitudes but occasionally at high altitudes. Therefore, operators undertaking flights within the Baghdad FIR shall do so at their own risk. Operators should review NOTAMs regularly for any changes that may affect the information contained within this document.
"
Is an airline really considering the needs of the pax on board when filling out this document, or could cost savings be involved? I wonder?
