Fair do's - I did not realise that it had to be issued by the flight school. I reckon it has to be easier and cheaper to go to SA now. Although having been knocked out of their own world cup maybe now is not such a good time. They deserved to get through unlike us!!

On a separate note - if you have a JAA IR and want to fly Instrument stuff in the US - do you have to do a full IR FAA?

Cricketer,

1) If you already have a 61.75 certificate (ie issued on the basis of your foreign JAA licence) then I think you need to:

a) complete the new foreign licence verification procedure for a future rating/certificate issue at your nominated FSDO
b) sit and pass a reduced IR written knowledge exam - the IR Foreign Pilot test
c) visit said FSDO with your verification letter and JAA licence and test results and have them undertake the necessary administrative update to your 61.75 licence.
Note that your JAA licence must be valid and your IR must be current from verification request through to administrative update.

2) Alternatively, you could sit the full written and pass the normal IFR rating practical test (assuming you already meet all the experience requirements of 14 CFAR 61.65 by virtue of your JAA IR training and flying). Then your 61.75 certificate will also be endorsed with "US Test Passed".

3) If you already have a standard FAA certificate (ie you originally undertook a course of training, a full written test and an FAA flight test) then you can certainly do the second above on your standard certificate without the endorsement; whether the first is allowed I don't know.

4) If you have neither FAA licence (standard or 61.75) then you have to get one of them first!

BTW, don't quote me - I'm not a CFI, lawyer or holder of either IR. I have found the New York IFO very helpful on answers not obvious in the FAR/AIM. Don't ask the FAA office in London (Gatwick?) - they have no operations inspectors and will refer you to New York IFO or another FSDO.

NAC and Orlando Kissimi OFT
 

Hey all,

I went to Naples Air center on the 6th of march and recieved a great welcome, however it is clear in my view now that where money is concerned keep it in your pocket and not their`s. After two weeks of superb instruction, and some hidden costs, i rode in to the school to go solo for the first time, only to be met by a notice of temporary closure???After a day of hanging around i jumped on a grey hound to Orlando flight training in kissimi where i have had no troubles since and was lucky to land myself with a great instructor once again. Ironically 3 days later another 6 students from Naples arrived and with the closure of NFT at Orlando Executive another load are due too. In all honesty i never found out or new, nor would i claim too, what the EXACT problem was at Naples, perhaps the only guys who do really know are the FAA or whayever department deals with airschool workers compensation. I felt that Naples did make a substancial effort to keep the sudents infomed, and i did recieve my deposit back soon after asking. My only advise to people like myself training in the US is the following:

1.Manage your money very very carefully, never pay up front, sadly known all too well by the students at NFT who in cases lost $50,000 due to paying up front.

2.Trust you insticts, as many schools employ very good salesmen.

3.There is some great flying to be had in the US, at low cost, with good instruction, and as long as the above is taken into account you CAN return to the UK with your intended qualifications and a wide smile on your face.

Keep flying everyone!

Anticyclone
:D :D

My two penneth for what it's worth...
I went to the USA last January as part of a modular JAA fATPL course. I entered via Atlanta on the Visa waiver permit. On arrival I was asked by the nice chap at immigration what the purpose of my visit was, and how long I was going to stay. When I told him that I would be visiting for ten weeks, he raised one eyebrow. When I explained that I would be doing some flying, he raised the other one. He ummed and arred for what seemed like an eternity and then gave me a big orange folder and told me to wait for someone else to come and talk to me. After about twenty minutes, I was ushered into an office where three immigration officials were waiting to grill me. I answered all of their questions truthfully, gave them the name and address of the flying school where I would be training. I explained to them that I would be doing my FAA PPL and nothing more. It was non-vocational and purely for recreation. They did let me into the country, although the also told me that I should have had an M1 visa.
I can understand their caution, since I could have appeared to them as one of Osama's buddies, being blond haired, blue eyed, having spent sixteen years working for a major airline and also being married to an American!
My experience? Tell the truth, don't hide anything, be polite and friendly and they will be ok. The flight school where I trained was very small. Even smaller than I had imagined, with only three Cessna 152's and two instructors. That said, the training I received was absolutely first class. It must have been as I somehow managed to get 100% for my PPL written exam and a first time pass for the flight test.
Just for the record, I paid all the fees upfront before leaving the UK and the training wasn't in Florida!
There are good schools out there and it is possible to get in without an M1 visa.

Sir Digby Spode,

The rules changed on April 12, 2002. I posted the rule change on the second page of this thread.

Richard

What you posted refers to change of visa status. Sir Digby Spode stated that he was on a visa waiver. The law is full of nuances, but it is all crystal clear if read in full, and with care.

Dear Richard:

The rule change you refer to is with regard to changing non-immigrant visa status from visitor to student while in the US. The old rule allowed you start studying immediately after filing the application. The new rule requires you to wait for the application to change status to be approved before you start studying. This rule change is included in the voluminous copy of the immigration regulations you posted previously.

Changing visa status from visitor to student is a completely different animal to recreational flying on an visa waiver.

Best wishes,
Campbell

Campbell,

The reason they address the B Visa and not the Visa Waiver is because the Visa Waiver is not a Visa, so you do not have a Visa to change from, in order to allow you to do any training. There are threads already on this in this forum.

Here are the highlights:


Then you go to the Visa Waiver Program information at the U.S. Embassy London Website you will find:



But once again, do not take my word for it. Check with the U.S. Embassy in your country.

If you were to use common sense, ask yourself why would NAC, OFT, EFT, IFTA, Comair, Embry-Riddle, and many others in Florida (there are many more schools in other states too) spend tens of thousands of dollars a year to offer the Visas to students at no charge. How would a school benefit from this?

Then take what happened on 9-11. The U.S. Government is going to stop this from happening again. There are people in the thread saying the U.S. Governments is so dumb, they are going to leave a huge hole open for potential terrorists to enter the country without a Visa (and Background check for that matter) because they are going to go to a small school to learn to fly. In the U.S. every flight school, no matter how small, can train someone all the way to ATP. Does common sense tell you the U.S. Government is going to leave that gaping whole in their security so we can have a second 9-11?????

Do not take my word for it, talk to the source, the U.S. Embassy in your country!

Richard

P.S. I just do not get why people are so afraid of a simple two week process that actually allows them to enter legally. They would rather risk deportation by trying to fool an Immigration Officer upon entry to the U.S.

Dear Richard:

Thank you for the response. I deal with the Bureau of Homeland Security, the Department of Justice and the Department of State on a daily basis resolving immigration issues such as these.

You are mixing concepts and visa requirements, a very easy thing to do when working off the internet.

The Visa Waiver program is a waiver of the requirement of the B-1/B-2 visas for visitors of certain countries. The United Kingdom is one of these countries. This program was enacted into section 217 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, through section 313(a) of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. The visa waiver visitor may upon admission participate in B-1 or B-2 activities in the United States for a period of 90 days. Engaging in training and acquiring a license or certificate is permitited under a B-1 and thus under the visa waiver. Please see Letter from Yvonne M La fleur, Chief Nonimmgrant Branch, INS Office of Adjudications, to lawyer Wiliam Z. Reich, File no. HQ 1815 - C (Dec. 21, 1995). Thus, the permissable B-1/B-2 activities include recreational flying training and acquiring an FAA light aircraft private pilots license. This is what we are talking about.


Full time study at an academic or vocational training school is not what we are talking about. This does requires an M-1, J-1 or F-1 visa. If a person wants to pursue a course of study which would lead to commercial license then the M-1, J-1 or F-1 visa would be the appropriate vehicle. This is why serious flight schools acquire authorization to issue the documentation which underpins these visas. This is what you are discussing.

It should be noted that Immigration is the second most complex body of law in the United States. This is because of its fluid and political nature. One cannot read a collection of reguations and FAQ's off a website in isolation and expect to understand the finer points. Experienced attorneys don't even try that. I don't think this is what this website forum intended. We may all want to stop and consider checking what we are talking about before making what could possibly be wild, irresponsible and inaccurate statements. This is a very important topic for some potential pilots out there. They have to make serious financial decisions for their futures and may have no room for error.

I think we should head back to the joys of flying and leave these dry legal topics to wander alone in the wilderness

Best wishes,
Campbell

Campbell,

Your input to date has been excellent and reassuring. It has, however, been concentrated solely around "recreational flying training" towards "acquiring" an FAA PPL "license or certificate", i.e. initial issue.

I for one would welcome your point of view on flying training towards an FAA IFR "rating" on an existing FAA PPL. To my mind this can be nothing but recreational in both use and training but is not necessarily about "acquiring a certificate or license".

Without seeing the content of the La Fleur/Reich letter I'm in the dark as to any possible differing INS interpretation. Are INS adjudications available on the web?

Thanks.

Dear Gateradial:

I am sending Scroggs an accurate overview of the US entry requirements for posting, subject to his approval. I will address this question of yours in this. I plan to do it over the weekend when I have time and Scroggs should have it Monday.

The US Immigration Administrative Decisions and the Board of Immigration Appeals Precedent Decisions are available online through the Immigration Service's (now the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services) pfficial government website. However, the internal policy memoranda are not. These are available in two publications "Interpreter Releases" published by West Group and "Benders Immigration Bulletin" published by Mathew Bender. Have a browse through their website and if you have any specfic questions or difficulties you may want to give me an e-mail. Please remebr it is the Bureau of customs enforcement and immigration that makes the determination on admssion into the United States not the consulate. This is regardles of whether you have a valid visa, of any descripition, or not.

I have generally found the US Consulate website very unhelpful and have rarely received helpful assistance from a Consular officer, it is always vague. I suppose these are the joys of international diplomacy. I will try to get an advisory letter from Steven Fischel at the Department of State, he deals with visa policy.

The admission determinations are usually made at the US border and there are very few people who have big enough b.... b... to challenge an admission denial. If the decision to deny admission is a discretionary issue then you will not get anywhere. I don't think I would challenge an admission denial.

I hope this helps.

Campbell

Not quite OT but doesn't it seem a little strange that British Citizens are subjected to all this from our "closest ally"?
Also, if one wishes to emigrate to the US then Brits are behind the Irish, Mexicans andjust about everybody else. So much for the "special relationship"....a bit one sided if you ask me.

Hi there Private Jet:

Maybe a bit OT but if you look at the whole nautre of the relationship the US has with the UK and then look at Blair phasing out the Harrier and signing on to the the Joint Strike Fighter project, which is basically owned and controlled by Lockheed Martin. It does seem a bit strange. Where does that leave the UK with regard to air power for the next decade or two?

The UK may have climbed out of the drivers seat to find itself on the side of the road trying to ride with others. I hope not.

Campbell

Chaps, while an esoteric discussion about the relative priorities of different nationalities' entry to the States, and the merits of the JSF, the Harrier and Tony Blair may be very interesting, they are not relevant to the thread or to Wannabes. Keep it focussed!

Scroggs