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Desipilot,
I stand corrected (as the kid with orthopaedic shoes once said!). Indeed FIT is an FBO who do only FAA licences. G-SXTY said in his original post he wanted to do the FAA PPL skills test and then hours build. Could he not do this at FIT and then hours build as planned? VFE. |
Re. Flight training in the United States
Desipilot,
You seem to have been closest to this issue. Can you say what is required for an operator to get the necessary approval for I-20 issue or whether there is an "alternative method of compliance" for the student to apply for the M-1? Everyone should note the sticky at the head of this forum. Unfortunately, the references to the regs are broken and my trivial search of the Federal Register has me none the wiser. Perhaps RJG can repost the current links? Note that normally an M visa is required for full-time (vocational) study - defined as 18 hours or more a week. Whilst the new regs probably overrule part-time study without M visa in the case of flying training, it would anyway defeat the major reasons for training in the USA - time and money. |
You do not need an M-1 visa to pursue a short course of study and get a pilots license in the US. Please see United States Foreign Affairs Manual section 41.31.N10.6 which states that a B-2 visa is applicable for "Aliens comming to the United States primarily for tourisim who will incidently engage in a short course of study during their visit... No I-20 required". Further at 41.31.N8 the Manual clearly states that aliens can enter the United States "to participate in a training program " on a B-1.
The previous e-mail clearly states that an M-1 visa is require for full time study. Well this is not what we are all talking about. The question is whether you need an M-1 to enter the US as a visitor and while here engage in flight training to get a license and then leave. The answer is no. I may not have your expertise and experience in the world of flying, but your are now in my area of expertise. |
What I said before about the M-1 visa is what we are talking about. Going to America to do a PPL course is a course of full time study. A student will spend more than 18 hours a week, not speciffically in the air, but certainly at the flying school.
To quote from the foreign affairs manual that you refer to, 9 FAM 41.31 N10.6 Short Course of Study Aliens coming to the United States primarily for tourism who also incidentally will engage in a short course of study during their visit. Insert the notation STUDY INCIDENTAL TO VISIT; I-20 NOT REQUIRED immediately below the B-2 visa stamp. : Almost everyone who is going to the states is going PRIMARILY to get an aviation license, not to go visit Mickey and his mates down at Disney. When they show up at the immigration desk with the waiver form or B-2, the Immigration officer will ask them for their reasons for visiting the USA. As soon as they say that they are going to get a license, its turn around and straight back home..It has happened, and will happen until people start getting the correct visa. Hour building is different because you are there on holiday. The fact that you will spend that holiday flying is irelevant. It is the fact that you are not attending a course of study that is important. That is why you can do this on a visa waiver. |
Hi Desipilot:
You are stating in your response e-mail exactly what I am saying. A foreign national entering the United States to visit who will attend a short course of study, get a pilots license and then leave is not engaging in full time study as envisioned for the M-1, J-1 and F-1 visas. He is a visitor whose flying is incidental to the visit. Foreign nationals can and do enter the US reguarly to attain a private pilots license and then leave. This is done on the visa waiver or a B1/B-2. The nature of the visit is declared to the Immigration Service on entry, namely I am here to fly and get my license. No problem. A foreign national who enters the United States to engage in a full time structured course of study at a flght school that issues M-1 visas and requires a year of training or so to get a private license, should seek the M-1. This is full time study. My suggestion is that a wannabe enters the US on a visa waiver and gets his license with a small operator. This can be done in an unstructured environment with minimal cost and within a month or so. This is what the B-1/B-2 or visa waiver is for. Please read both sections previously quoted. |
Even though a PPL course may only last 3 or 4 weeks, it is still full time study... therefore requiring an M-1... I know this because I got mine 2 weeks ago for my trip to the states to finish my PPL in a couple of weeks.
Foreign nationals can and do enter the US reguarly to attain a private pilots license and then leave. This is done on the visa waiver or a B1/B-2. The nature of the visit is declared to the Immigration Service on entry, namely I am here to fly and get my license. No problem |
Campbell Cooke,
I can see very clearly where you are coming from and don't dispute your sources, expertise or interpretation! But that is the whole point. It is all a matter of interpretation. Alas, the INS official may have the right to exercise discretion but at the end of the day they refer to the regs and the interpretation(s) they and their peers put on them. Hence, Britannia had students turned back at the airport. Some people will wish to enter the USA for the explicit purpose of flight training; they are not initially tourists. They require a visa for study beyond 18 hours per week whether or not they are training for a year or 10 days (read: fast-track FAA IFR rating for UK IMC holder). Not all operators can grant them the paperwork towards that visa. Here is the point of all this - you do not then have the choice of your preferred training organisation but instead must train with an organisation approved to issue the I-20. These are typically not your small operators who, as has been said before, can also offer very good quality and value-for-money. I understand this applies to training and testing towards a certificate or rating; renewals or check-outs or rental don't require a (student) visa and so can indeed be done as a tourist (even though the US embassy prefers you have a B-2 than a waiver). The question of endorsements (e.g. tailwheel, complex, etc.) I guess can be easily answered if it is part-time training prior to undertaking tourism with your newly accepted skills. |
Aliens coming to the United States primarily for tourism who also incidentally will engage in a short course of study during their visit. |
Here is the entire Regulation so you will not need to worry about the link being changed in the future.
DOCUMENT NUMBER: FR 11-02 FEDERAL REGISTER CITE: 67 FR 18062 DATE OF PUBLICATION: April 12, 2002 BILLING CODE: 4410-10 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Immigration and Naturalization Service 8 CFR Parts 214 and 248 [INS No. 2195-02] RIN 1115-AG60 Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant Prior to Pursuing a Course of Study AGENCY: Immigration and Naturalization Service, Justice. ACTION: Interim rule with request for comments. SUMMARY: This interim rule amends the Immigration and Naturalization Service (Service) regulations by eliminating the current provision allowing a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant visitor for business or pleasure to begin attending school without first obtaining approval of a change of nonimmigrant status request from the Service. This change will enhance the Service’s ability to support the national security needs of the United States and is within the Service's authority under section 248 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (Act). The amendment will ensure that no B nonimmigrant is allowed to enroll in school until the alien has applied for, and the Service has approved, a change of nonimmigrant status to that of F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant student. DATES: Effective date: This interim rule is effective April 12, 2002. Comment date: Written comments must be submitted on or before June 11, 2002. ADDRESSES: Please submit written comments to the Director, Regulations and Forms Services Division, Immigration and Naturalization Service, 425 I Street, NW, Room 4034, Washington, DC 20536. To ensure proper handling, please reference the INS No. 2195-02 on your correspondence. Comments may also be submitted electronically to the Service at [email protected]. When submitting comments electronically, please include INS No. 2195-02 in the subject heading. Comments are available for public inspection at this location by calling (202) 514-3048 to arrange for an appointment. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Craig Howie, Business and Trade Services Branch, Adjudications Division, Immigration and Naturalization Service, 425 I Street, NW., Room 3040, Washington, DC 20536, telephone (202) 353-8177. SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: Background What Is a B Nonimmigrant Alien? A B nonimmigrant is an alien whose admission to the United States is based on a temporary visit for business (B-1) or a temporary visit for pleasure (B-2). Section 101(a)(15)(B) of the Act, 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(15)(B), defines the visitor classification as: An alien (other than one coming for the purpose of study or of performing skilled or unskilled labor or as a representative of foreign press, radio, film, or other foreign information media coming to engage in such vocation) having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning and who is visiting the United States temporarily for business or temporarily for pleasure. Based on the statutory language, the Service has long held a B-1 nonimmigrant to be one seeking admission for legitimate activities of a commercial or professional nature such as meetings, conferences, or consultations in the United States in connection with the conduct of international business and commerce. A B-2 nonimmigrant is one seeking admission for activities relating to pleasure such as touring, family visits, or for purposes of receiving medical treatment. What Is the Service Changing in This Interim Rule? The Service is eliminating the ability of an alien admitted to the United States as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant to begin attending classes without first applying to the Service, and obtaining the Service's prior approval, for a change of nonimmigrant status to that of an F or M nonimmigrant student. This rule expressly prohibits a B nonimmigrant from enrolling in a course of study or taking other actions inconsistent with B nonimmigrant status unless and until the Service has approved the B nonimmigrant's change to an appropriate student nonimmigrant status. Why Is the Service Instituting This Change? The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, highlight the need of the Service to maintain greater control over the ability of an alien to change nonimmigrant status once the alien has been admitted to the United States. This interim rule will allow the Service to fully review any request from a B nonimmigrant to change nonimmigrant status to that of full-time student before allowing the alien to enroll in a Service-approved school. The elimination of the ability of a B nonimmigrant to begin classes before receiving the Service's approval of the change of nonimmigrant status is also consistent with the Act's requirement in section 101(a)(15)(B) that a B nonimmigrant not be a person coming to the United States for the purpose of study. Why Is This Change Limited to B Nonimmigrants? In the process of drafting this rule, the Service considered making its requirements (i.e., that nonimmigrants obtain a student visa before being able to take courses) apply to anyone in the United States not currently in student status. Such a requirement would be broader than the rule as presently drafted, which applies just to nonimmigrants in B-1 or B-2 visitor status. B nonimmigrants generally enter the United States for purposes of tourism or for a business trip. Pursuing a course of study is inconsistent with these purposes, and thus inconsistent with B status. However, pursuit of studies generally is consistent with most other nonimmigrant statuses, and thus such a broader rule could have unintended and overly burdensome consequences for such nonimmigrants. For some, such a J-1 au pair or an H-3 trainee, the courses might be an integral part of the program for which they obtained their status. For many dependent spouses, such as H-4s, derivatives of A or G diplomats, or NAFTA TN-2s, studies may be their only permissible pursuit while accompanying their spouse who is working in the United States. Dependent children are, in fact, expected to attend school. Even some principals in nonimmigrant status (e.g., H-1Bs, L-1s) may take courses incident to status to enhance their professional development. Requiring that these individuals change to F-1 or M-1 status in order to pursue studies would eliminate their ability to attend part-time, since by statute F-1s and M-1s must be pursuing a full course of study and since a nonimmigrant is prohibited from holding more than one nonimmigrant status while in the United States. How Does This Interim Rule Affect B-1 or B-2 Nonimmigrants Previously Admitted to the United States? This interim rule will accommodate B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrants who have already been admitted to the United States prior to April 12, 2002. In view of the Service's prior policy, this interim rule does not prevent such aliens from starting a course of study after filing an application for change of status, or require those aliens to stop taking classes while the Service processes the change of nonimmigrant status request. However, this interim rule applies to all aliens who are admitted as, or change their status to, a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant, on or after April 12, 2002. This interim rule also applies to all current B visitors who apply for an extension of their B nonimmigrant status on or after April 12, 2002. Request for Comments The Service is seeking public comments regarding this interim rule. The Service requests that parties interested in commenting on the provisions contained within this rule do so on or before June 11, 2002, as the Service will not extend the comment period. Good Cause Exception The Service's implementation of this rule as an interim rule, with provisions for post-promulgation public comments, is based on the “good cause” exceptions found at 5 U.S.C. 553(b)(B) and (d)(3). The reason and necessity for the immediate promulgation of this rule are as follows: The rule is necessary to ensure the national security of the United States by eliminating the ability of a B nonimmigrant to enroll in school until the Service has approved a change of nonimmigrant status application filed by the prospective alien student. The previous rule allowing such enrollment prior to adjudication of the application was used by some of the September 11th terrorists to obtain flight training in the United States. Closing this loophole is essential to efforts to prevent this abuse from recurring. There is also reasonable concern that publication of this regulation as a proposed rule, one that would not take effect until after a final rule was promulgated, could lead to the counterproductive result of a surge of entries by individuals who have no intention of going through the consular screening process overseas and who would seek admission as a B nonimmigrant while having the intent of becoming an F or M nonimmigrant student after admission to the United States. However, this interim rule takes account of the interests of those aliens currently admitted to the United States in B nonimmigrant status. Such aliens will continue to be governed by the Service's prior policy regarding change to F or M nonimmigrant status, for the remainder of their currently-authorized B nonimmigrant admission. Accordingly, the Service believes that advance public notice and comment on this regulation would be impracticable and contrary to the public interest. Therefore, there is good cause under 5 U.S.C. 553(b) and (d) for dispensing with the requirements of prior notice and to make this rule effective upon the date of publication in the Federal Register. Regulatory Flexibility Act The Commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, in accordance with the Regulatory Flexibility Act (5 U.S.C. 605(b)), has reviewed this regulation and, by approving it, certifies that this rule will not have a significant economic impact on a substantial number of small entities. This rule applies only to B nonimmigrants applying to change to either F or M nonimmigrant status. It does not affect small entities as that term is defined in 5 U.S.C. 601(6). Unfunded Mandates Reform Act of 1995 This rule will not result in the expenditure by State, local, and tribal governments, in the aggregate, or by the private sector, of $100 million or more in any one year, and it will not significantly or uniquely affect small governments. Therefore, no actions were deemed necessary under the provisions of the Unfunded Mandates Reform Act of 1995. Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act of 1996 This rule is not a major rule as defined by section 804 of the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Act of 1996. This rule will not result in an annual effect on the economy of $100 million or more; a major increase in costs or prices; or significant adverse effects on competition, employment, investment, productivity, innovation, or on the ability of United States-based companies to compete with foreign-based companies in domestic and export markets. Executive Order 12866 This rule is considered by the Department of Justice, Immigration and Naturalization Service, to be a “significant regulatory action” under Executive Order 12866, section 3(f), Regulatory Planning and Review. Accordingly, this rule has been submitted to the Office of Management and Budget for review. Executive Order 13132 This rule will not have substantial direct effects on the States, on the relationship between the National Government and the States, or on the distribution of power and responsibilities among the various levels of government. Therefore, in accordance with section 6 of Executive Order 13132, it is determined that this rule does not have sufficient federalism implications to warrant the preparation of a federalism summary impact statement. Executive Order 12988, Civil Justice Reform This rule meets the applicable standards set forth in sections 3(a) and 3(b)(2) of Executive Order 12988. Paperwork Reduction Act Under the Paperwork Reduction Act of 1995, Public Law 104-13, all Departments are required to submit to the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), for review and approval, any reporting or recordkeeping requirements inherent in a rule. This rule does not impose any new reporting or recordkeeping requirements under the Paperwork Reduction Act. List of Subjects 8 CFR Part 214 Administrative practice and procedure, Aliens, Employment, Foreign officials, Health professions, Reporting and recordkeeping requirements, Students. 8 CFR Part 248 Aliens, Immigration, Reporting and recordkeeping requirements. Accordingly, chapter I of title 8 of the Code of Federal Regulations is amended as follows: PART 214--NONIMMIGRANT CLASSES 1. The authority citation for part 214 continues to read as follows: Authority: 8 U.S.C. 1101, 1101 note, 1103, 1182, 1184, 1186a, 1187, 1221, 1281, 1282; sec. 643, Pub. L. 104-208, 110 Stat. 3009-708; Section 141 of the Compacts of Free Association with the Federated States of Micronesia and the Republic of the Marshall Islands, and with the Government of Palau, 48 U.S.C. 1901 note, and 1931 note, respectively; 8 CFR part 2. 2. Section 214.2 is amended by adding and reserving paragraph (b)(6) and by adding new paragraph (b)(7) to read as follows: § 214.2 Special requirements for admission, extension and maintenance of status. * * * * * (b) * * * (6) [Reserved] (7) Enrollment in a course of study prohibited. An alien who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay in B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant status on or after such date, violates the conditions of his or her B-1 or B-2 status if the alien enrolls in a course of study. Such an alien who desires to enroll in a course of study must either obtain an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant visa from a consular officer abroad and seek readmission to the United States, or apply for and obtain a change of status under section 248 of the Act and 8 CFR part 248. The alien may not enroll in the course of study until the Service has admitted the alien as an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant or has approved the alien's application under part 248 of this chapter and changed the alien's status to that of an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant. * * * * * PART 248--CHANGE OF NONIMMIGRANT CLASSIFICATION 3. The authority citation for part 248 continues to read as follows: Authority: 8 U.S.C. 1101, 1103, 1184; 1258; 8 CFR part 2. 4. Section 248.1 is amended by revising paragraph (c) to read as follows: § 248.1 Eligibility. * * * * * (c) Change of nonimmigrant classification to that of a nonimmigrant student. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (c)(3) of this section, a nonimmigrant applying for a change of classification as an F-1 or M-1 student is not considered ineligible for such a change solely because the applicant may have started attendance at school before the application was submitted. The district director or service center director shall deny an application for a change to classification as an M-1 student if the applicant intends to pursue the course of study solely in order to qualify for a subsequent change of nonimmigrant classification to that of an alien temporary worker under section 101(a)(15)(H) of the Act. Furthermore, an alien may not change from classification as an M-1 student to that of an F-1 student. (2) [Reserved] (3) A nonimmigrant who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after such date, may not pursue a course of study at an approved school unless the Service has approved his or her application for change of status to a classification as an F-1 or M-1 student. The district director or service center director will deny the change of status if the B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant enrolled in a course of study before filing the application for change of status or while the application is pending before the Service. * * * * * April 9, 2002 Signed _______________ _______________________ Dated: James W. Ziglar, Commissioner, Immigration and Naturalization Service. |
Yawn! As pointed out previously, the visa waiver is class W, so all this stuff for people switching from B to M status is irrelevant. Regulations can be complex and need to be carefully read and understood.
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It is quite simple......
Hour builders
If you hold an FAA licence or a JAA Licence with a conversion completed or to be done, you are not required to be on a Visa. Flight Training If you are undertaking training towards a licence/certificate/rating of any sort, you are considered to be training and therefore require a M1/F1/J1 Visa. There are those that say you can get in on your Visa Wiaver, just ask them to show you the proof. Call the US Embassy and ask them if you want nitty gritty. Do not take it from some faceless person who is probably associated with a school that is not Visa approved! Facts |
Ah, but the trouble is that all the propoganda saying you *do* need a visa, originated from FTOs with visa approval, some of whom also appeared to be lobbying gov't agencies to back them up on that. Having visa approval has obviously been a great selling point in recent times. But I personally know of dozens of people who've entered via visa waiver since 9/11 (there must have been hundreds if not thousands) many being perfectly open about the purpose of the visit, some questioned at length, yet we've only heard about a handful (2? 3?) who were sent back. And, we don't know how many of those would have been denied entry anyway, as suspected immigrants or illegal workers or for security reasons.
I just don't believe anything I read on pprune, when commercial interests are involved. And the US Embassy is full of faceless bureaucrats, the next worst thing. I imagine they love issuing visas galore, keeps them busy. It's the immigration service (INS) themselves that people should consult. |
Good to hear the quiet voice of reason from Carb.
The original question phrased by our friend was: Can you enter the United States and engage in informal flight training with a small operator to get an FAA license without an M-1 visa? The answer is simply yes. This is done regularly and with great success by many flight students who enter on the visa waiver after declaring to the Immigration Service that they are going for flight training. If a formal and structured course of study at a big flight school is a preferred choice then get an M-1 and enter the US. Either way you choose, please do not get lost in a morass of irrelevant information that only causes confusion and really has little to do with the question at hand. As an aside note the final rule on the U.S. "Flight Training Candidate Checks Program" was issued in the Federal Register on Friday (Volume 68, Number 30, page 7313-7321). It clearly states it only applies to training in aircraft with a maximum certified takeoff weight in excess of 12,500 lbs. I hope you enter the U.S. and enjoy your flying. |
I think we're getting very wound up about this, and it's probably all a bit unnecessary! I get the impression that Mr Cooke is talking about people who wish, while on a visit to the US, to get perhaps a type conversion before they go off touring around the country. The trouble is that the people on this forum (as opposed to those on the Private Flying forum) wish to visit the US with the sole or primary aim of completing a formal course of study to obtain a JAA (not FAA) licence or rating, and so his interpretation, while undoubtedly correct, is inappropriate to the circumstances of our readers.
My reading of the regulations from the INS website (linked from the US Embassy's) suggests that an M visa is required for most of the courses that you guys are likely to want to do, which most certainly do not fit Mr Cooke's description of 'informal flight training with a small operator to get an FAA license'. If I am wrong, perhaps someone could explain why, and give the references to show what the correct procedure is. Scroggs Virgin/Wannabes Moderator [email protected] |
Might it not be simpler for everyone wishing to go to the US for any flying to simply get the M1 visa? Sure it is a bit more time and money to get it but at least you can then be pretty sure that you will not get turned back from the Immigration desks.
On the original thread - my condolences to G-SXTY, what a nightmare and I really hope that you can get things sorted. Unbeleivable how these things happen. |
Scroggs
Not true Firstly many people obtain an FAA PPL and then pursue the JAA modular route to obtain their JAA Commercial licence. An FAA PPL being an ICAO licence is recognised by the JAA as a valid entry quailification for all of the JAA Modular Courses. Secondly FAA PPL specifically excludes flying commercial operations and therefore the training for this licence (or for ratings associated with the PPL) can only be defined as non-vocational. A school whose operations are limited to non-vocational training is outside the scope of the M1 visa and the training it provides, being recreational by definition, can be completed whilst on vacation under the visa waiver scheme. You can check all of this out be reading the JAR FCL documentation, the US Visa Waiver Legislation, and the US INS M1 Visa Requirements. Until the US changes its laws this situation will stand. Our experience confims this. We instruct all of our students to inform the INS officers on arrival that they are on vacation, that they will be completing a PPL course, and to show them the schools' documentation. No one has yet been refused entry!!! People get hot under the collar because you have had a sticky on your website for a considerable amount of time which is at least questionable and is probably misleading. The US government and their population welcomes visitors to their country including those learning to fly. Visitors for flying are not doing anything wrong and should not worry about the INS officers who will only turn back people who they suspect as being a threat, or are being deceptive, or do not comply the the visa regulations. |
Are we agreed its a mess?
Cricketer,
Yes, but for the minor problem that very few if any "small informal flight training operators" have INS approval to issue the I-20 paperwork which is a necessary prerequisite for the M-1 visa. Catch-22 or ONLY go and do your informal but M-1 approved flight training with a larger formal school recognised by the INS for issue of I-20. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't suit all needs (e.g. time & money). I for one am very happy to get an M-1 but the small informal operator of my choice for a further rating can't oblige and I haven't yet heard of an alternative means of compliance than an I-20. I'm not going to put his and my certificates in jeopardy and so will need something in writing from the INS in advance to confirm they are happy with either visa Waiver or B visa entry for my specific case. Scroggs, Yes, there are clearly two groups that can be identified. However, even for the second group, such as further ratings at PPL level (which may or may not be a necessary part of an overall wannabee modular training plan) you are according to one interpretation, undertaking recreational i.e. non-vocational (or informal, if you will) flight training. Or are you? Who knows for sure? By the same token, it can be argued that many in the first group should also have an M-1. What is not disputed is that a BFR, type check-out or rental appear very recreational and likely do not involve 18+ hours of study per week. Endorsements, I would argue, are also in this latter group. It is, however, hard to include training and testing for initial certificate or rating issue at any level in this group to the same degree of certainty that one can for BFR etc. However, none of this deals with the small operator and M-1/I-20 issue above, whether formal or informal. As for references, what exist are open to interpretation (and Campbell Cooke, slim-slag, carb and NAC etc. are to be commended for their input). I'm waiting to hear back from the US Embassy right now - they didn't have a definitive reference and are no doubt waiting for the INS to open shop before they give me THEIR interpretation. Key points for them were - recreational vs. number of hours per week and is a test involved? Even a tourist doing incidental training towards an FAA PPL checkride is being tested and is likely "studying" more than 18 hours per week - which counts most in the INS estimation? According to this thread reports of actual cases illustrate both ends of the spectrum - many succeed and yet some get turned back before entry. What I don't yet see is the flight training operators, FBOs, AOPA, IAOPA, etc. etc. banging the doors of the US government to get the whole mess clarified once and for all! I conclude that the economics of training foreign pilots just isn't hurting enough and perhaps it never will. Tony Cornish, I'm very glad for your precedent but my conversations with the US embassy with heavy use of "recreational", "non-vocational" and "non-commercial" were not enough for them to make their mind up on the spot, either way! I agree totally with your advice to your students but not all operators have taken the trouble as you have to get legal advice. Or become I-20 issuers. PS Did you get the PM I sent you re. IFR? Would appreciate your feedback. Thanks. |
In the current world situation its better to get a M1 for any flight training in the US, even if you are caucasian-looking. Its not a big hassle (just go to the US embassy with the paperwork) when you consider what the JAA/CAA bureaucrats themselves require (they reinvented flying)
The yanks are a bit on the nerves right now and its understandable. Yes, true some years ago you could get in without a M1 or even better. I dont understand all the fuss. Also its true, never pay any money upfront for your flight training but its easier said than done. If am not mistaken, some brilliant UK flight schools REQUIRED you to pay some money in advance for the fATPL training If think its the same with sponsorships (dont tell me sponsorships are safe look at buzz !) Even fligth tickets are not guaranteed nowadays. |
Dear Cricketer and all those others engaged in this discussion:
The idea of just getting an M-1 visa is an interesting proposition. Please note that anyone admitted into the US on an M-1 visa is then bound to engage in a full time course of study with the school that issued the M-1 visa. That is all you are allowed to do. I think Tony Cornish hit the mark, M-1 visas are for full time vocational training. This is not what we are talking about. What we are talking about is entering the US doing some flying, doing some study, applying for an FAA private license on light aircraft under the weight of 12,500 lbs and leaving the US within 90 days. This is visa waiver activity - it is not vocational study. Thus you do not need the M-1 visa and allows you the option of small operators. Another writer to this forum raised the big factor - the Immigration Service at the point of entry into the US. They have the ultimate decision as to whether you gain admission into the United States or not, regardless of what non-immigrant visa type you enter on. The issues at the point of entry are: Immigrant intent; Are you going to work without authority; Are you going to leave the US before the authorized period of stay expires; Are you a terrorist threat; and, Do you have a criminal record. The Immigration Officer has on average about 15 seconds to make this decision. If in doubt you may be referred to secondary inspection. This is a more intense scrutiny of who you are and what you are intending to do in the US. None of these grounds of exclusion apply to the pilot we are discussing who is doing FAA certification on a visa waiver. You do not have to hide anything. Single males between the ages of 17 and 30 run into the question of whether they are entering the US to marry a US citizen or are seeking economic migration. This raises the issue of immigrant intent. Immigrant intent makes one inelligible for admission under nearly all the classes of nonimmigrant visas (including the B-1/B-2; M-1; or visa waiver). The exceptions to this are the H-1B, K and L-1 visas which allow for immigrant intent. Please note the US Immigration Service now falls under the Bureau of Homeland Security. Which has two immigration sub-divisions, namely: enforcement, which includes inspectors at the ports of entry, and benefits, who are the people who adjudicate applications and petitions in the US. With this change we are all hoping for a more efficient government entity (if such a thing exists). Campbell |
Tony
thanks for your input. I am sure you are quite correct in your statements but, as gateradial shows, the competent authority in the UK isn't sure itself what the rules are, or how they should be interpreted. As for the 'sticky', Campbell Cooke has kindly agreed to update it to take account of the latest legislation and interpretations. I've no doubt individual cases will still arise that confound the rules or the rulemakers, but I hope it will help avoid confusion. Scroggs Virgin/Wannabes Moderator [email protected] |
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