The end of JAA PPL's in the U.S. A ???
 

I am a FAA instructor teaching JAA ppl's. My employer informed me I need to find a new job as of march 31, because the jaa no longer belives I am qualified to train pilots. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .Is this true ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .Where can I find out more info on this ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

FAA Instructors can teach JAA PPL's but must show 'knowledge' of JAR. What this means I have no idea, but I did hear rumours that 15 hrs 'JAA training' was required. I suppose an FAA instructor with a JAA PPL would be ok though.... .. .Cheers. .EA

Here you go, found the info on the JAA Website, <a href="http://www.jaa.nl/jar/jar/355000/355312/355312.pdf...sorry" target="_blank">http://www.jaa.nl/jar/jar/355000/355312/355312.pdf...sorry</a> the text is a bit messed up, had to copy and paste from .pdf.. .. .Cheers. .EA. .. .SECTION 1 JAR-FCL 1 Subpart H. .[Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.300. .Requirements for a specific authorisation for instructors not holding a JAR-FCL licence to. .instruct in a FTO or TRTO outside JAA Member States. .(See JAR-FCL 1.30O(a)(2)(iii)). .1 (a) Instructors seeking to instruct for a JAR-FCL licence including class and instrument ratings shall:. .hold at least a CPL and ratings issued in accordance with ICAO Annex I required by the. .respective non JAA State for the instruction to be given on aircraft registered in that State;. .have completed at least 500 hours of flight time as a pilot of aeroplanes of which at least. .200 hours shall be as a flight instructor relevant to the intended training to be given and meet the. .experience requirements of JAR-FCL 1.330(a), (b), (c), (d) andor (e);. .(iii) have completed in accordance with JAR-FCL the approved relevant course(s) of theoretical. .instruction and flight training. The course may be modified, as approved by the Authority, taking into. .account the previous training and the experience of the applicant, but shall comprise at least 30 hours. .of ground instruction and 15 hours of dual flight instruction performed by a flight instructor holding a. .JAR-FCL licence and rating in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.33O(f);. .(i). .(ii). .(iv) have passed the skill test set out in JAR-FCL 1.345;. .(v) validity period of the authorisation is at the discretion of the Authority but not exceeding. .3 years;. .(vi) revalidation or renewal of any authorisation issued in accordance with para (i) - (iv) above. .The authorisation will be restricted as follows:. .(i) no instruction for the issue of any instructor ratings;. .(ii) no instruction within a JAA Member State;. .(iii) instruction to students only who have sufficient knowledge of the language in which the. .(iv) to those parts of the ATP integrated course where the instructor can demonstrate the. .(v) no instruction for MCC.. .Instructors seeking to instruct for a JAR-FCL type rating shall:. .shall be in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.355.. .(b). .instruction is given;. .experience relevant to the intended training according to l(a)(ii);. .2 (a). .(i) hold at least the licence and ratings issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 required by. .the respective non JAA Member State for the instruction to be given on aircraft registered in that State;. .(ii) comply with the experience requirements of JAR-FCL 1.365(a)(2) and (3) in order to act as. .TRI (A) or with JAR-FCL 1.4 1 O(a)(3) and (7) in order to act as SFI(A).. .(iii) have completed as a type rating instructor (TRI(A) or equivalent) at least 100 hours of. .flight or simulator instruction time;. .(iv) validity period of the authorisation is at the discretion of the Authority but not exceeding. .3 years;. .(v) have complied with the revalidation requirements of JAR-FCL 1.370 acting as TRI(A) or. .JAR-FCL 1.4 15 acting as SFI(A).. .(b) The authorisation will be restricted as follows:. .(i). .(ii). .(iii) no instruction for MCC.]. .no instruction for the issue of any instructor ratings;. .instruction to students only who have sufficient knowledge of the language in which the. .instruction is given

I was forecasting this 18 months ago. All thats going to happen is that the financial penalty for being able to teach JAA PPL in the USA will mean instructors will have to be paid about 3 times more than normal. . .. .This will add something like £700 to the price of a US JAA PPL. . .. .Not a crippling amount but enough to make the savings negligble.. .. .WWW

Wee...not a particularly stunning "forecast" - the JAR rules have been on the cards for way more than 18 months.. .. .Capt. Emerald.....do you "really" think it is a bad thing that the JAA want you to be qualified to teach the subject??. .. .Do the FAA allow any ICAO instructor, from any other Country, to teach FAA pilot license applicants without being an FAA CFI??. .. .Teaching somebody how to operate an aircraft is - I agree - probably the same in most Countries ... pull stick back, cows get smaller ... pull stick back further, cows get bigger again.. .. .Then comes the question of air law. How many FAA instructors have knowledge of JAA air law (quadrantal rule, distance to fly to qualify as a cross country flight, non IFR flights in Class A airspace, altitude limits below airways, Rule 5, no night VFR, etc.). .. .Meterology....freezing levels, mountain fog, carburettor icing, airframe icing, - I'm thinking of the Floridians here...I may give you Thunderstorms (but I have seen a PA28 DEPARTING on a dual training flight, in the midst of a thunderstorm, so maybe I won't).. .. .R/T .... although you disagree with the European procedures and phraseology (even though the FAA and AOPA don't) ... the client that pays your mortgage is still hoping to learn it through you.. .. .Navigation .... not done here the way they want to TEST it for European operations during the clients "check ride". Don't care if "it works here" ...it's not what the client really needs.. .. .Performance, Airframes and Human Factors....well, I'm sure any decent instructor could do those...and the JAA may be quite happy for you to teach it - rather than tell the student to go home with Trevor Thom Book "X" and teach himself. This, however, is not like the FAA - they want you to have a ground instructor qualification...based on the FAA syllabus.. .. .Whilst I am 100% for ICAO instructors teaching ICAO flying to ICAO students in ICAO aircraft in ICAO airspace - all the JAA are asking you to do is to STANDARDIZE with the syllabus that you are meant to be teaching....and I don't find that to be at all questionable.. .. .I know that I, with over 3,000 hours of "dual given" would not be allowed to teach a JAA student in FAA airspace without a full FAA CFI rating (which entails full commercial and instrument rating first). This is way more than the 30 hours of ground school and 15 hours of flight training that the JAA is asking you to do.. .. .Nobody is questioning (at least, not at this point) your ability to teach a student to fly an aircraft. They are simply asking you to partially standardize with the instructors that are fully rated to teach the relevant subject - which YOU, apparently, are not.. .. .I don't think this is unfair.

GoneWest - I know it was hardly Mystic Meg stuff but although the they said they might do this it was highly debateable whether they ever would for some time.. .. .I am glad that they have as it levels the playing field somewhat. Unfortunate that it increases the costs in the short term.. .. .A couple of thousand extra PPL courses being conducted in the UK will do wonders for UK FI's, schools and GA. . .. .WWW

Gone West. .. .Some very valid and well put points.. .. .Having said that I firmly believe that there will still be a place for JAA training in the USA, provided,the syllabus is being properly taught.. .. .What on earth is wrong with US intructors having to be qualified in onder to teach the JAA syllabus. As an instructor here, I can't jump into an N reg plane and teach the FAA sylabus any more than an FAA instructor should be allowed to teach JAA.. .. .That said my FIRST HAND experience of USA training is that it is first class in the main. However, if the customer goes out there to train for flying over here it is only right that their instructor is fully conversant with JAA practice.. .. .The problem will still be that there are elements of the JAA syllabus and RT that you can't use in US airspace.. .. .WWW where on earth do you get your £700 (nearly 20%!) extra on the price of a PPL from???. .. .I have no doubt that our US instructor cousins will do what we instructors over here do...stump up the cash for additional ratings in order to remain employable in a difficult market. Will they be paid any more? well what do you think!?. .. .Wouldn't it be nice if us underworked underpaid UK instructors could take advantage of the situation and teach JAA over there? Sadly not on unless you add a FAA CPL,IR and FI to your already overpriced list of credentials!.. even if you only teach JAA PPL.. .. .Works both ways!. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 10:10: Message edited by: clear prop!!! ]</small>

In the same way as IMC rated instructors charge a premium so will JAA approved FI's in the States. There will be a significant cost and effort involved in getting JAA Approved and they will rightly seek compensation for this. . .. .Will they have to maintain the JAA approval with checkrides/seminars I wonder?. .. .If they charged about £15hr premium like IMC instructors do then that would world out at about £700 on a 45hr course.. .. .Maybe. Depends a bit on supply and demand of course.. .. .As I have said many many times. If you can - train PPL CPL and IR at the same school in the same aircraft with the same instructors. It makes that IRT a whole lot easier and THAT is the hurdle you should be focussed on from day one.. .. .WWW

Just like to point out that the JAA has been around...ooh, a few years, and the FAA has been around for donkeys years. . .. .I think it is fair enough that FAA pilots become fully clued up on the JARs etc through a ground course, but is it really nescessary having to do 30 hrs flying and the FI rating? Its Boll@cks, another way for the JAA to keep jobs for the boys (and girls). After all, flying is flying, whether it be in the US, UK or Mongolia. Oh, and 'freezing levels' are the same regardless, you don't have to be a super-JAA-Instructor to realise this. Actually, most FAA CFIs are probably better qualified to teach PPL flying, after all, most of them already have a IR as well as a CPL before getting the CFI rating (and often they get the CFII pretty soon too). I've flown with numerous instructors in the UK who posses just a CPL FI(R)and IMC rating...know which I'd rather be flying with in marginal weather (and its important for students to experience marginal weather).. .. .Ok, rant over. Now for the positive points. 1) The JAA PPL will probably not be around for too long, before the CAA takes control again, and I forecast that they will be more likely to allow ICAO FIs to train for the UK PPL. 2) In the mean time, it opens up the possibilities of issuing the H1 (specialist) visa to JAA FIs to teach in the US, as there will be insufficient FAA CFIs with the JAA FI rating to train JAA students..... .. .Cheers. .EA

englishal - having taken the trouble to cut and paste the appropriate requirements, it's a pity you didn't read them. The requirement is not for 30 hrs flight training, only 15.. .. .Whilst your forecast of the JAA's life expectancy may or may not be true, it is already clear that it will not be the UK CAA that takes control of its licensing but the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). As an EU Agency, EASA will be able to enshrine the JAA requirements into EU law, removing what little flexibility the UK CAA now claims. It is likely that most licensing functions will be transferred to EASA HQ, probably in Belgium or the Netherlands, leaving the UK FCL as no more than a regional office, somewhat akin to a FAA FSDO. It is a little understood fact that plans are well advanced for this bureaucratic nightmare, which is due to take over responsibility for all EU states' flight crew licensing within a few years.. .. .As to the requirements for non-JAA instructors teaching for the JAA PPL in non-JAA countries, let's consider level playing fields.. .. .When JAR-FCL 1 was first published, the US government immediately recognised the protectionist nature of the requirements concerning principle place of business (JAR-FCL 1.055) and the restriction of overseas training to all or part of the ATP integrated course (App 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055). In an effort to cut the ground from under the feet of the JAA at an upcoming GATT meeting, FARs were hurriedly amended to allow training for FAA licences to take place outside the US. However, were a non-FAA FI to wish to instruct for the FAA PPL outside the US, the FAA required said instructor to hold, as a minimum, a FAA Commercial, IR and CFI and to instruct under the auspices of a FAA approved training organisation.. .. .Since everything about the FAA is so perfect, we should obviously follow their example and require non-JAA instructors to hold, as a minimum, a JAA PPL, pass the CPL knowledge exams and hold a JAA FI(R) before being permitted to teach for the JAA PPL.

Large round of applause for Rolling Circle. The issue is far more complicated than many people realise until you've actually been a flying instructor in JAA world and watched your potential customers nip over stateside where you yourself are not allowed.. .. .WWW. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 13:43: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>

Thank you, RC, for such a very clear resume of the whole situation regarding insruction towards the JAR/FCL PPL being conducted in a non-JAA member state.. .. .The following advice was recently given by the CAA to anyone considering going to a non-JAA member state for JAR/FCL PPL training:. . . ."Information regarding PPL/A training in the USA or a non-JAA State 05 March 2002 . . . .In September 1999 the CAA was approved by the JAA to issue licences in accordance with JAR-FCL 1 requirements. Since then, there has been a great deal of communication with all overseas flight training providers, to advise on existing and forthcoming requirements. Subsequently, under Notice of Proposed Amendment (NPA) 14, now adopted, JAR-FCL 1 has developed to require the approval of overseas PPL schools and the training of their Flight Instructors. The target date set for compliance is 31 March 2002, from which date PPL schools are required to be approved and to apply the required training to FI’s.. .. .Before committing yourself, or someone you wish to sponsor, to a course of training towards the JAA PPL(A) conducted in the USA or other non-JAA State, likely to be completed beyond the 31st March 2002, you should ascertain that: . .. .1. The Organisation offering the PPL(A) course has been approved by the UK CAA or another JAA State and . .. .2. The FI providing individual instruction meets the requirements of the UK CAA.. .. .At the commencement of, and during the PPL(A) course of training, the student or sponsor should ensure that any change of Flight Instructor complies with the requirements.. .. .It is appreciated that there may be a natural reluctance to ask these question but the cost of the PPL(A) course is a considerable investment. Please ensure that you invest wisely and ask questions.. .. .The list of approved training schools issued by the CAA covers those with an issued approval. There are numerous other schools whose approval issue is in the system awaiting final confirmation. It is therefore vital that you speak directly with the training provider.". .. . Of course you could always go to the USA for FAA training and subsequently fly day VFR over here....

...or get an FAA IR and fly an N reg IFR over here of course...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Whilst your forecast of the JAA's life expectancy may or may not be true, it is already clear that it will not be the UK CAA that takes control of its licensing but the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). As an EU Agency, EASA will be able to enshrine the JAA requirements into EU law, removing what little flexibility the UK CAA now claims. It is likely that most licensing functions will be transferred to EASA HQ, probably in Belgium or the Netherlands, leaving the UK FCL as no more than a regional office, somewhat akin to a FAA FSDO. It is a little understood fact that plans are well advanced for this bureaucratic nightmare, which is due to take over responsibility for all EU states' flight crew licensing within a few years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">As BEagle points out in another thread, EASA will probably not bother themselves with a PPL, leaving it in the capable hands of the CAA.... .. .Cheers. .EA. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 17:12: Message edited by: englishal ]</small>

As a newbie to this site I would like to thank englishal for answering my questions. I have done some research myself, what I have found at the CAA web site is:. .<a href="http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SRG_FCL_ApprovedFTOs.pdf" target="_blank">web page</a> Organisations conducting CAA and JAR-FCL approved courses of flight and ground training. On page 5 of this document there is a subheading: JAR-FCL 1 PRIVATE PILOT LICENCE (AEROPLANE) Approved by the UK CAA for training for JAR-FCL 1 PPL (A) outside of a JAR member state. It only lists 3 European Flight Training, Orlando Flight Training and Flight Training College of Africa (Pty) Limited. I am only sure that 1 of these schools is in the U.S. How has my school and the others in the U.S. been conducting JAA PPL training ? I have also found on the JAA web site that one of it's goals was to harmonize with the FAA. To me these new regulations seem to be the opposite. I started this thread for help with some questions, now that it has become a debate and a chance for some of you to lecture me, I would like to respond. The FAA does give credit for instruction conducted by ICAO instructors toward FAA ratings no matter what country it was conducted in and always has. As for a JAA insrtuctor comming to the states to instruct, I am not allowed to go to the U.K. and instruct or work either. I do see a need for standardazation, I belive this can be done on the ground and was at my school 1/60 rule ect. I also thought there was a checks and balance system in place, it is called a skill test. Maybe the JAA/CAA should look at their examiners more closely if they have no faith in the training being conducted in the U.S. September 11 has hurt avation world wide, now is a time to unite not devide!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> As BEagle points out in another thread, EASA will probably not bother themselves with a PPL, leaving it in the capable hands of the CAA.... . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">That is not the opinion of the member of the EASA implementation team that I spoke to last week.. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> How has my school and the others in the U.S. been conducting JAA PPL training ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Not in accordance with the provisions of JAR-FCL1, which is why the French, among others, have been able to refuse to recognise UK issued JAA licences. If you read BEagle's last post you will see that the requirement for approval takes effect on 31 March 2002. After this date the UK CAA will accept applications for PPLs from students of only those non-JAA training organisations approved in accordance with JAR-NPA14.. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 17:57: Message edited by: rolling circle ]</small>

RC - originally Ear$eA's intention was not to bother with things at PPL level, but that seems to have changed of late. And guess what - they are even becoming interested in a harmonised NPPL..... I wouldn't want to see that - we should stick to the NPPL being a simple Day VFR-in-the-UK fly-for-fun licence and the JAR/FCL PPL being a first step towards professional licensing, IMC or Night flying.. .. .There is a JAA/FAA harmonisation group, but it's a long, long way from coming up with full licence reciprocity agreements!

WWW, An EXTRA £15 an hour for instructors....in the real World?...I don't think so!!!!!!. .. .If that is the case I'm off on the next charter flight to see Richard!!. .. .Having re-read the posts on this thread, we've all missed something! That is that Capt Emerald has lost his job. For missing that, I for one apologise and wish you all the best mate. We have either all been there or close to it... good luck to you. I, as I'm sure we all do, hope that things work out.

Rolling Circle,. .. .Correct me if I am wrong! Students can still go to USA, do their FAA PPL's. Since they will have less then 45 hours, take all the seven JAA PPL written exams and take the PPL skill test with JAA examiner. . .Wait for 5-6 weeks for their original FAA PPL to be issued and apply for conversion to JAA PPL. I do not see how JAA or EASA can stop the training that way!!. .Extra cost to student? One FAA written exam and one extra FAA flight test, may be $300-$350. The students walk away with two unrestricted licences.. .. .Am I wrong?

Before 31 Mar 02, you would probably be correct. After that, no - the flight training would only count if conducted by a FI who meets the revised requirements at a school which also meets the revised requirements. Hence such pilots with FAA PPLs would have to fly on that licence in the UK with the associated restrictions, including finding someone to conduct a biennial flight review if they haven't achieved the conversion requirements within the 2 years from the date of FAA PPL issue.. . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 07:05: Message edited by: BEagle ]</small>

BEagle, Do you or does anyone know what the "conversion requirements" for an FAA to JAA licence are?

Sensible,. .. .To convert an FAA PPL into a JAA PPL you need.. .. .Pilots with an FAA PPL and less than 100TT:. .. .7 Writtens and a Skill Test. .. .Pilots with an FAA PPL and over 100TT: . .. .2 Writtens and a Skill Test . .(Air Law & HPL). .. .Hope this Helps,. .. .Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.. .Naples Air Center, Inc.

Thanks Richard - I didn't have time to confirm that this morning!. .. .One should perhaps add that with 100 hr TT, the JAR/FCL PPL Skill Test shouldn't present any difficulty to a FAA PPL holder, HP&L wouldn't be difficult at all, Air Law would be a bit of a bore but fairly straightforward!. .. .So perhaps the way ahead is to concentrate on FAA PPLs in the US and JAR/FCL PPLs in Euroland? Until, that is, true licensing reciprocity is achieved&gt;

Richard...THREE writtens...R/T written (but not, necessarily, practical).

GoneWest,. .. .Please break down all the scenarios.. .. .Thanx,. .. .Richard

After reviewing the information I gathered from this thread I became encouraged and went to my boss with the news and proposal to do FAA PPL's then convert them to JAA PPL's. He quickly burst my bubble and pointed me in the direction of the general information document #21 from the CAA web site: <a href="http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_gid21.pdf" target="_blank">CAA web page</a> . .. .I read the document and become confused, then he explained to me what it stated. With an ICAO PPL and 100 hrs. of flight time in aeroplanes the conversion could be completed by a approved flight training organization with only the airlaw, human performance, radio telephony written exams, and a skill test. With out the 100 hrs. of flight time the applicant would have to do all the written exams, the 25 hrs. of dual instruction with an approved JAA/JAR instructor and skill test. So it looks like a U.S. JAA PPL will either be done at an approved JAR/FCL school or it will be a 100 hr JAA PPL or 65 hr PPL IE: 40 hr FAA PPL with 25 hrs. of instruction with a JAA instructor = 65 hrs. There are 2 sections in GID #21, one being credits from flight training the other credits for ground examinations. Looks like I still need to find a job on March 31st.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> So it looks like a U.S. JAA PPL will either be done at an approved JAR/FCL school or it will be a 100 hr JAA PPL or 65 hr PPL IE: 40 hr FAA PPL with 25 hrs. of instruction with a JAA instructor = 65 hrs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Yup, sure does. Of course there's always the normal 45 hour route via a Registered Facility within a JAA Member State, and with interest being shown in JAA membership by a number of South American states, South Africa and Singapore, you never know...

Thanks for that explanation Richard. So, in reality a Brit can go to the USA, get an FAA PPL and then do a small amount of hour building to 100 hours and can then come back over to the UK and convert to a JAA license taking only HPL, Air Law and the RT exam! I can't see that that is a real problem to a serious pilot. Still seems a route far more preferable and less time consuming than waiting for the weather in the UK and in any event, the extra hour building would be very beneficial to a low hours pilot. . .. .I note that Capt.Emerald assisted by Rolling Circle has introduced an additional requirement of 25 hrs. of instruction with a JAA instructor !!!????? Is this true?

There seems to be some confusion as to exactly what GID No 21 says. According to Version 05 (10/12/01):. .. .PART 2 FLYING TRAINING/EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS. .. .Credits from Flying Training . .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Any previous flying experience in single engine-piston (Land) aeroplanes gained during incompleted PPL(A) courses may be counted towards the 45 hour minima required for the grant of a JAR-FCL PPL(A), however the specific requirements under JAR-FCL (25 hours dual instruction and 10 hours supervised solo-flight. .time) must be completed in the state under whose authority the training and testing are carried out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> The holder of a current and valid PPL(A) issued by an ICAO Contracting State (not being a JAA Member State), who has flown a minimum of 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, is credited the flying requirements, except the PPL(A) Skill Test. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">PART 3 THEORETICAL KNOWLEDGE EXAMINATION REQUIREMENTS. .. .Credits from Ground Examinations . .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> The holder of a current and valid PPL(A) issued by an ICAO Contracting State (not being a JAA Member State), who has flown a minimum of 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, is credited the examinations in Navigation & Radio Aids, Meteorology, Aircraft (General) & Principles of Flight and Flight Performance & Planning. (If no aeroplane rating has been held in the 5 years preceding application, then all JAR theoretical knowledge exams would need to be passed. If no aeroplane rating has been held for a period exceeding 5 years preceding application, an assessment of your flying experience will be required).. .. .The holder of a current and valid PPL(A) issued by an ICAO Contracting State (not being a JAA Member State), who has flown less than the minimum of 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, will be required to pass all JAR theoretical knowledge examinations. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Where people are getting confused is on the first paragraph I quoted. Please note it only applies to "incompleted PPL(A) courses". At that point you can return and have your time count, but you need to meet the requirement of "(25 hours dual instruction and 10 hours supervised solo-flight time)" as per the JAR-FCL. Furthermore the 25 Dual and 10 Solo "must be completed in the state under whose authority the training and testing are carried out.". .. .Hope that clears the issue,. .. .Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.. .Naples Air Center, Inc.

Sensible - yes, 100% correct. That was confirmed to me today by the CAA! FAA PPL + 100 hrs TT + 3 exams + JAR Skill Test would get you a JAR/FCL PPL. You could also get your 100 TT in the UK on your FAA licence under Day VFR, of course.. .. .But would it be cheaper than doing the training in the UK or another JAA member state in the first place? I don't know - but your hours-building would probably be easier with an FAA licence in the US!. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 23:23: Message edited by: BEagle ]</small>

Richard - there are no multiple scenarios to post.. .. .All I was saying (Give Peace A Chance??....No!!)...was that candidate has to pass written exam for R/T (as well as Air Law and Human Remains) but not, necessarily, the R/T practical test.. .. .I also remember reading - on the CAA site - that an ICAO PPL with less than 100 hours can convert to JAA PPL if they pass ALL SEVEN writtens and a skill test.. .. .So brand new FAA PPL is O.K.!! However, "Temporary Airmans Certificate" is not valid for JAA licence application - it has to be the real thing (which, as an aside, is issued much quicker now than it was last year).

Thanks for the clarification BEagle. What is easy for you professional guys is often so confusing for mere mortals like myself! . .. .Richard, how does the new rules affect training at such places as Naples Air Centre? presumably students can only train for the FAA licence and hour build on either an FAA or JAA licence. . .. .Is it likely that there will be any changes in the future which will enaable pilots to train at Naples for the JAA licence?

Sensible,. .. .The only way a school can conduct a JAA PPL is if their instructors have undergone the required training. The problem is the high turnover of instructors. If we were to hire someone with JAA FI rating, they would be required to convert to FAA ratings before they can teach. . .The way JAA and now EASA has been changing rules I wont be surprised if the rules change again. It is a big gamble and seems like all the FTO's and registered facilities in the USA are willing to take it. . .I specifically asked the same question whilst CAA inspector was visiting us (Britannia). He also mentioned that we can train for FAA PPL, have the students take all the seven written exams and take the JAA skill test with JAA examiner. It is perfectly legal, and as mentioned earlier in my post the student will walk away with two unrestricted licenses. The main question is how feasible it is to do two licenses? Given the time period of three weeks, if students do not do pre-course studies, it will be almost impossible to do the two license in three weeks period.. .As quoted by Richard, Beagle and others if you are a holder of ICAO license, and have less then 100 hours, you will be required to take all written exams and flight test. One thing everyone seemed to miss is that CAA will not accept the Temporary Airmen Certificate for converion. So the student will have to wait until he/she receives original issuence by FAA.. .I hope this clarifies.

Another point is that the ICAO licence must be current for the 100hrs TT route to be available. So the FAA PPL holder wishing to convert to a JAR/FCL PPL by achieving 100TT and sitting 2 exams plus a RT exam would need to do so within 2 years of FAA PPL issue or find someone to conduct a Biennial Flight Review! 2 years and 1 day = invalid licence = no conversion, it would seem.

The idea of students doing a FAA PPL and then undertaking the writtens and skill test to achieve a JAR PPL is a non-starter as the school would still have to be approved for the examiner to conduct the tests, so they may as well train from the start for the JAR licence. The student could of course do the exams on return to the UK, but cost wise I doubt there would be much overall saving. I believe overseas JAR training is entering a new phase, where there will be a handful of USA schools who will gain a good reputation for playing by the rules, and certain others will just fade away... hopefully!

Meeb:. .. .You have aroused my curiosity, what exactly do you mean by "play by the rules".. .. .When comparing the training standards around the world and the rules, I doubt anyone even understands what "the rules" are. One thing I am sure of the JAR - JAR, fiasco is driving you people out of aviation.. .. .Mind you I am not suggesting you are to blame, however I wouldn't get to concerned about "the rules" if they are counter productive to aviation.. .. .Just my take on it.. .. .May I add I feel sorry for what JAA - JAR is doing to you and your Country.. .. .................. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Meeb,. .. .The schools could still be approved but unable to do the JAA flight training as the Flight instructor conducting the training must have completed half the FI(r) course and taken a flight test with an FIE. The sad thing is that they do not receive any rating for it, just paper work confirming that they have done the test.. .. .I am sure the schools or the instructors will spend the money towards the instructors training. One thing to note here is that the cost of flight training will go up in USA. Also the fact that no one knows how long will this rule last?. .. .I agree that not many schools in USA will not comply with this rule, may be just to keep the cost of PPL down. But do you think that the UK school's will be able to catre to all the students? and I am not talking about infrastructure, I am talking about the lovely British weather!!!

...and, Meeb, I am told that the school needs only to be approved (registered) to hold the written papers for the ground examinations.. .. .If "Bloggs" goes to local UK flight school, passes all seven written exams, goes to america, does full FAA licence, then sits skill test with any JAA Flight Examiner (at any U.S. school - approved or not) they will receive full JAA licence....as well as full FAA licence.. .. .Sounds confusing - but still slightly cheaper and still MUCH QUICKER for those who (unfortunately) think the course should be finished in three to four weeks.

Perhaps. But 'Bloggs' would have to join the local flying club, attend groundschool and then pass the ground exams. Most flying clubs offer 'discounted' rates for exams conducted for their own PPL students, but a special course and exams for someone expecting to go straight to the USA after passing? It might end up being charged at a non-discounted rate, perhaps? If you get my drift, squire......... .. ."You want to join us, do all the groundschool, sit the exams and then go to the US for your flying training? Certainly Sir, that'll be £100 to join, £25 per hour for groundschool, £25 per exam........"

laughable only way to describe it all! ok so with my instructing experience i am not the most highly qualified guy in either faa or jaa circles but i have the commercial and an ir and a multi ir and other silly bits of paper that entitle me to fly a multitude of very nice little things with fans on the front in several configurations -the new jar regs effective march 31st are hilarious -ok i'll come back to the uk and do my fi course there that you want me to do but once i have spent that 15 hrs dual with an instructor and done the 30 hours groundschool i take your checkride only to be told that i can only teach those jaa ppl students that wish to fly in america and that i cannot in fact teach it in britain using the course i have just taken (which incidentally is identical to a british fi requirements check flight). .i thought it was raining but nope theyre pissing down yer back!

I think the broad strategy is clear. PPL's done Stateside are to be stamped out whilst over here the NPPL makes pleasure flying training affordable. All training for professional purposes to be conducted in JAA schools in JAA countries following a JAA syllabus.. .. .Looks good to me.. .. .WWW