WWW said:

theRolfe - thanks for your inputs here on your single issue stance
of defending US training of EU nationals.

WWW: You are undoubtably a smart guy. You are undoubtably good at what you do.
Which is why I don't understand how someone who works for one of those 'new' airlines -
the ones that plan on making money rather than flying a national flag - can be in favour of
*any* form of protectionism.

"Go" wouldn't exist if it wan't for liberalisation of the EU air market.
You have stated that you are in favour of protectionism when it comes to flight training outside the JAA 'economic area'.
You have stated that US schools 'nick' students from UK ones.
You have repetedly stated that this should be 'stamped out'.

Be very careful what you wish for. Once the protectionist genie is let out of the bottle
there is no stopping it. Suppose the
JAA manages to 'stamp out' foreign training. Or even FAA training of 'EU nationals',
which is the phrase you used! Then what? The US might decide
to impose tariffs on Airbus Industries. You can't erect barriers against people and expect them
to sit there and do nothing. That's why I don't think I'm harping on about a 'single issue' here
- if we go along with your line of reasoning I
can see a return to the 1970's with everybody
deciding that different bits of aviation are 'core national interests' that are 'strategic' and
need to be 'defended' from 'unfair' foreign competition. Your yourself have said that flight training is a
'strategic asset for UK PLC'
which implies that training in Spain is unacceptable.

If and when the EU gets its own pointless GPS system up and running - it's been refered to
as the "Common Agricultural Policy in space" -
all the protecionists will no doubt insist that US
GPS receivers will be prohibited on JAA aircraft. Will you agree with them? If you don't you'd be
a hypocrite for only being in favour of protectionism when it directly affects your
job. If you do then you're saying that perfectly good equipment should be
thrown away because it doesn't have 'made in EU' stamped on it.

You also have an amazing amount of faith in the JAA! As far as I can tell it lacks real political power of it's own
and is a bit like the commonwealth - everybody shows up, meets,
gives lip service to the need to stand together and them goes back to doing exactly what they
were doing before complete with national exceptions and predjudices. What makes you think they can pull this off?
Please answer as I'm genuninly curious...

theRolfe

PS - I know somebody who heard from somebody else that "Go" aren't very good.
When you get back from Naples can you give me a free flight?

Your post is ridduled with holes. I am off to bed now. I will reply in 24hrs.

WWW

Well Richard old son, that has got to be one of the smartest marketing moves ever!!!

One thing about good old WWW is that he is consistent!

If he’s flown there, been taught there, taught there or worked there, it will become the best thing since sliced bread.

Just kidding Weasley, honest!!.... You and Miss Welshlady will love it!
:D

Your post is ridduled with holes. I am off to bed now. I will reply in 24hrs.

WWW

I'll await your reply with baited breath!

Actually..no...I won't. :)

You and I are not going to agree on this - you think flight training is a core national interest which need to be protected and I believe that the needs of consumers are more important than the needs of flight instructors. There is no middle ground on this one so we're just going to have to agree to disagree. We both have better things to do with our time than waste it trying to change each others minds or win points in a situation like this.

So I'm not really interested in why you think my post is 'riddled' with holes any more than you are interested in my views on the infectious nature of protectionism. The other thing is that I have to plan a xctry for tomorrow night and this is a needless distraction.

theRolfe

WARNING: ADVICE FOR SALE
Hilarious exposure of Celtic selective memory moderation.
Anyone remember WWW working at Welshpool and recommending training in UK? Then, when working for Bae Jerez, the advice modified to training in Europe. After a freebie, could it moderate to flying in Florida?:rolleyes:

to say that flight training of uk students in america ahould be banned (WWW) is missing the point -how many hard working instructors in the USA thoroughly enjoy their time out in the states teaching and building experience of a superb system and learning valuable lessons and then return to the UK to apply for jobs with airlines there.Give the people the credit they deserve.
If only your beloved CAA would give them that credit when they return home by recognising their ICAO license and asking nothing more than a check flight of them for conversion like virtually every other country.

Is WWW about to discover that there is life beyond the Nissan hut in the middle of a waterlogged valley loosely described as an airfield? Will he cope with the shock of being able to obtain an IFR flight clearance from a GA airfield? Will he be able to convince himself that Naples is reality and not a dream?

Don't forget to go to the local flight standards office to get your free licence conversion before you fly WWW and remember that you can then dial freephone 1-800-WX-BRIEF to talk to a friendly flight briefer who will discuss the en route weather you can expect during your proposed flight. He/she will also give you Pilot Reports and Notams all without charge all from the comfort of the modern well equipped flight centre. Can you believe that? Yes, you can request the tower to give you class Charley services/VFR flight following before you take off too!

Ask for a tower visit WWW and see how a modern tower operates.

WWW you just won't want to give that airplane back to Richard!! If you do hang on to it, Cedar key and Marathon are places to go for daytrips and take a look at the warbird museum at Kissimee.

Happy flying!

..and of course not forgetting that the FAA will issue you a nice shiny FAA IR, and all you have to do is show them your superb JAA one, and take a simple computer written exam, for a grand cost of around $75. Then, why not get a 'tower en-route' into LAX or IFR into Miami, with a taxi back, while picking up your new clearance to go somewhere else (because you can), the grand cost of all of this....just the flight time....



:D

I think that a few important points have been missed.

1. We had a US based flight instructor who teaches JAR saying how great it was that they were going to get grandfather rights from the CAA. This ver same instructor then turned around and asked what was the difference between an RTF and an FTO. This is basic JAR knowledge required for the PPL and how can we trust instructors who don't know the system themselves.

2. The old requirement to build hours post PPL has all but gone with the JAR 200 hour CPL. If one works it out then to fit all the training in leaves very little hour building time especially if a FI course is completed. After the 200 hour mark, there may well be a requirement but you now have a "professional pilot" hour building and most likely doing it as an instructor.

3. Under the old system, a UK licence holder was limited to UK airspace in an N registered aircraft unless they held a US licence. Now that JAR is here, a JAR licence holder is restricted to the JAR countries in the same situation leaving most of Europe available.

Training in the US is fine. However to operate within the FARs, certain differences exist. Even if they are good, they are differences. Therefore, I am of the opinion that after completing JAR training in the USA, students should be required to complete differences training before operating in Europe. Operating in unfamiliar airspace can be as much of a danger than operating an unfamiliar aircraft. Exemptions to such a requirement for students with certain previous experience of European operations.

DFC

I've recommended plenty of schools in my time - many that I know only by reputation.

I have also publicly and privately advised people to consider the PPL + hours in the USA. Many times over many years. IF circumstances suit their personal situation.

So lets lay off the - amusing - but thread wandering game of painting me as some jingoistic idiot. It obviously is not true.

This thread is about the UK CAA and how it approves training. I believe it should stop encouraging JAA pilots to train outside of JAA states. All other JAA member states agree with me. The changes will happen in the next couple of years of that I am confident.

Safe flying one and all,

WWW

So you obviously don't give a toss that future students are going to be faced with a much higher flight training bill than you were.....Not in the interests of safety, but in the interest of your own pocket.....Maybe we should also restrict flight training to aristocrats and people of a 'good blood line' too? Suppose this is what happens when you reach that god like state of 'frozen ATPL holder'.

Rgds

Restrict the profession to exclude common riff-raff....hmmm. Didn't that used to be called BOAC?

Englishal, the cost of gaining a JAA CPL/IR Frzn ATPL is now considerably cheaper than it was only five years ago if one compares the integrated vs CAP509 route.

The NPPL will keep non-professional pleasure flying training affordable. Indeed the growth of ultra and microlight flying is most encouraging.

For those who are flying in order to gain a JAA license allowing them ultimately to be paid to fly JAA aircraft I believe they should follow a JAA syllabus in a JAA member state.

Its not as if the US even has the cheapest flight training in the world. Why don't you go to Poland and get a Polish PPL. It will cost about £1,000. Ahh, the UK CAA does not have an automatic conversion system in place for Polish licenses! So why do the North Americans have one?

WWW

Hmm...interesting thread.
WWW,if you were only just to hop across the pond and experiance the US aviation scene you`d understand,its such a great country for flying,everything is geared up for aviation,alot of people do go flying and enjoy themselves at weekends in their own planes,it is a big country,has everything you`d need,open spaces..and if you want busy,you can go do a touch and go at a large airport if you please..for no cost whatsoever.
I think most importantly for students its very relaxed,not alot of stress involved,which really helps out alot in your first few hours.

Not to start a flame war..but from my impressions..the CAA and JAA aren`t really a touch on the FAA..the FAA promote aviation,the CAA and JAA seems to act like they have been lumbered with it,don`t care,not really in touch with the pilots,only politicians and bank accounts.

I do understand. Its just that its got nothing to do with JAA training regulatory policy.

WWW

Its interesting to see the OAT ad on PPrune which states that OAT has now been granted approval to carry out its flight training in the US.....Pay £60,000ish AND train in the US ! Does this mean that OAT are a second rate training orginisation??

How dare they not support the ailing UK aviation industry !
EA

Indeed. All OATS flying instructors have been given notice that they may soon be redundant at Kiddlington.

Flying careers are being exported to the USA because for historical reasons the British CAA have allowed US training to count towards or be approved for license issue.

If OATS move your job to Tyler and then the Feds won't give you any more than a two year Green card then thats your career as a professional flying instructor with OATS down the toilet.

If BAe move your job from Prestwick to Jerez (as they did) then you can hop on the next flight to Spain and relocate without filling in a form and continue your career.

The Spanish will even recognise your JAA CPL IR and FI ratings so you can fly their ES registered aircraft and teach Spaniards for PPL's on the side if you like.

THATS a very good illustration of the issue involved.

Its about trading blocs, employment regulations and training validity. Not mindless Yank bashing :)

WWW

According to the nice lady at the CAA, OATS do not have approval for the CPL modular course at Tyler, in fact up until last week they hadn't even applied for it. It seems that OATS Marketing have this continuing difficulty with the truth, as so many of their customers have discovered.

Caveat Emptor

StephenRED's signature:

<<"Lower the standard to which our standards are set and everyone will reach greater standards.">>

That indeed is a very worrying statement, I do hope you are not an instructor of any persuasion...

Meeb:

I hope what he meant was to lower the mindless expansion of rules and goofy pseudo scientific garbage that is now part of the training process.

That would indeed improve pilot training.

Mind control is a very interesting thing, tell something often enough and it becomes the norm.

Your bureaucrats have suceeded in doing this admirably one need only note the slavish manner in which some instructors embrace some of this garbage.;)

Cat Driver
....................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

Well I think the UK can offer a lot to the US and vice versa.The US could adopt our trade and employment polices and we could adopt there low cost ,open to everyone GA Industry.

WARNING:WELSHMAN STILL AT IT

After his bleating and attempted diversions, the jury's still out on one mixed-up and mutton-headed moderator but....

The point of this was JAR PPL's in USA

As was said, at the start, there has been a school cull and the truth, from the CAA, is that there are now only 4 places for:

JAR-FCL 1 PRIVATE PILOT LICENCE (AEROPLANE)
Approved by the UK CAA for training for JAR-FCL 1 PPL (A) outside of a JAR member state



Orlando Flight Training (-the Cabair crammer/clipper in Florida)

European Flight Training (-a nearly new nipper)

Flight Training College of Africa (Pty) Limited (-S. of Zimbabwe)

BTW- the (joke descriptions) are not from Aviation House and
-CAA make no reference to any OATS JAR PPL approval in USA

I have only met a few who went to any of the others. Any school and training might be big, cheaper and better (or small, crap and expensive) but, whatever, I just don't see how anyone reckons that these few (only 3 in USA) approved schools could take on a major share of all the PPL training- either from UK or rest of JARLAND.

Anyway, some people simply won't have the time or ability to do a 3 week PPL course and, as always, most students will train over the whole of the spring and summer, at a local airfield, paying for a lesson whenever there is enough cash, an aircraft available and suitable weather for it.

So amazed anyone, especially WWW but excluding the flying club CFI's, on here wants to cut choice and competition for Wannabes.

Trade protection is always bad for the punters.

Is anyone really suggesting stopping the Go, Easy, Ryan etc. 'rubbish' and returning to the 'good' old days- of BOAC/BEA !?.

WARNING: WELSHMAN LOSING IT

Please note and further to the above, I have had to edit out/remove the most recent rantings of our mad moderator, which he had the audacity, or is it lunacy?, to insert on my posting and between my points ! Like anyone, he is entitled to his fantasies, obsessions, opinions, prejudices and pet-hates but, apart from being largely off-topic and cat-calling, his contributions- including his proposals on Portugal's economic and political policy !! (which would be as big a laugh in Lisbon as they are in Leeds) and his Flying Instructors (interests are more important than those of students !!!) froth- should, like WWW, be posted or promoted elsewhere.

OK Meeb:

If you feel I am muddying the waters how about giving me your opinion on the following.

Several years ago I had to write the Commercial Gyroplane Rotorcraft exam. It was a one hundred question exam of which seven were on determining time and distance by using time and bearing changes with an ADF.

Now if that is not stupid as well as about the most inefficient method of determining your position in this modern age please tell me what you would call it?.

Just one example of stupidity in the training, exam requirements brought into the sylabus because some moron had nothing better to do.

Have you ever "had" to use the ADF to determine time and distance from an NDB or any other radio transmitter that an ADF will receive?
......................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

And Meeb..thankyou for your kind comment about my signature..its actually a quote from none other than Benny Hill ;)

And I`m not a flying instructor..plain 19 year old 45 hour PPL..:p

Chuck: exam of which seven were on determining time and distance by using time and bearing changes with an ADF.

Chuck, I have on many occassions whilst working as a PPL instructor had to rely on single indication NDB navigation using a manually set OBS. There are plenty of aircraft out there without VOR DME fit and plenty of airfields and areas without VOR or radar coverage in the the UK. Just like I had to use the speechless procedure for real once - now sadly no longer part of the syllabus under JAA. As for dropping the requirement to learn Morse code at the CPL/ATPL level - lunacy! But this digresses us.

-------

notice - stop throwing insults please. I have argued my views and you are welcome to disagree with them. But that is all.

Those 4 schools that you list take at a rough guestimate something like 15,000 flying hours out of UK flying schools.Thats about 20 flying instructors livelihoods a year.

I did indeed reply to each of the points you raised in your last post. You've deleted them which is your choice.

My point about Portugal was I feel a valid one.

With BAE being the only school to have moved from one JAA state to another I think we need to give things time to adjust in JAA land. What I would like to see is - say Portugal - decide to encourage flight training within its borders. They could drop local tax on vocational training (no VAT on flying lessons) reduce their already lower petrol taxes, exploit their favourable climate, their underused airspace, their cheap labour and building costs. There is no reason why Portugal should not become the Florida of European aviation.

I would have no problem with any of that. They could easily be as cheap as the USA and just as popular. This being the case then any flying instructor from any JAA member state could permanently and easily relocate to Portugal - our new focus of flight training. That might mean things get even harder for UK flight schools. Well thats competition for you. Thats choice.

What is unfair is for a country outside of out trading agreements to come in and poach our customers whilst denying us the right to relocate there. Whilst Florida exists there is no viable chance for the Portugese Ministry of Enterprise to make the case for becoming the flight training hub of JAA land.

notice - can you please give us your thoughts about the Kiddlington OATS flying instructors currently under notice of redundancy and OATS proposed move to Tyler in the USA? To me it looks like American flying instructors 1, British flying instructors 0.

WWW

WWW,

You still miss the point...

It is not the yanks that 'poach' us, but the high costs involved over here that 'drive' us away......do you really believe the yanks could give two hoots about training JAA students? Most JAA schools in the US were started by Brits who saw an emerging market, and capitalized on it. The FAA CFIs couldn't give a toss whether they train JAA students or FAA students. But Equally, what about the British instructors working in the US training FAA pilots because they have an FAA CFI rating? It may only be for two years, but I'd say the number of Brits in the US training US students for the FAA raings is higher than the number of US CFIs training Brits. Indeed, all my IR training was carried out with a British instructor with FAA CFII rating.

Its the whole attitude of GA in this country which has caused this problem....money money moeny. If you want IMC training you pay more, if you want instrument training you pay more again, if you want to shoot an approach, you pay for it, if you want to fly from A to B you have to pay your landing fees, if you want to park over night, you pay more again. I recently flew to Palomar airport in CA, and parked over night, do you know what it cost....? $3.00. Now thats what I call a fair price.

Cheers
EA

I don't wish to re-hash all this - we've all had enough. Clearly there are arguments and strong opinions both ways.

Time will tell what happens post JAA.

Cheers,

WWW

WWW, glad to hear you've calmed down (or sobered-up?)

Your last posting can only mean 'bat and ball home', after a beating, so trust you are now able to modify your behaviour.

BTW, if you ever go to Florida or Texas, do NOT call the locals 'Yank/Yankee' (unless you want another unpleasant learning experience). Also, avoid use of 'boy'. This is more challenging for a Celt but, beware, it might be your last insult.

At no time was I either angry or drunk. I am coolly disspasionate about what is a rather dry topic - JAA training accreditation.

Err, thanks for the 'tip'. If you ever go to Wales don't call anyone Boyo and whatever you do don't touch another mans sheep...

WWW

Hey Weasley:

The point I was driving at was we are no longer flying in the world of Radio Ranges, ADF, Celestial navigation and HF radios as our only means of communication.

I may be wrong but to have seven questions on such a doubious means of determining time and distance is really stupid.

I sort of agree on the morse code thing for the identifying of radio aids, however voice idents were brought into the system as far back as the early sixties and make far more sense than morse code.

By the way when I received my instrument rating training in the 1950's we had to read morse randomly selected by the examiner before taxiing.

Having said all that I flew many, many thousands of hours IFR and never, never,never had to figure out time and distance by using an ADF to figure time and distance. I have never really flown an ADF that was accurate enough to exactly determine the real bearing of a station with any reliability.

Anyhow enough of this, are you going to make it to North Weald when we are doing the flying there?

......................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

Hey Weasley:

The point I was driving at was we are no longer flying in the world of Radio Ranges, ADF, Celestial navigation and HF radios as our only means of communication.

I regularly fly outside of the promulagated range of VOR's and ADF's across the Bay of Biscay.

I may be wrong but to have seven questions on such a doubious means of determining time and distance is really stupid.

Not really. If you can't work out a simple bearing/distance/time problem then best you don't fly a jet airliiner..

I sort of agree on the morse code thing for the identifying of radio aids, however voice idents were brought into the system as far back as the early sixties and make far more sense than morse code.

No voice idents in Europe. And not at all common in the rest of the world. What about NDB and ILS DME idents? What about visual beacon idents of airfields?

By the way when I received my instrument rating training in the 1950's we had to read morse randomly selected by the examiner before taxiing.

Having said all that I flew many, many thousands of hours IFR and never, never,never had to figure out time and distance by using an ADF to figure time and distance. I have never really flown an ADF that was accurate enough to exactly determine the real bearing of a station with any reliability.

Well the procedures are drawn with +- 5 degrees allowance for the NDB - that should be enough.

Cheers,

WWW

OK Weasly:

I just can't seem to get through to you what I am trying to say.

As to the + or - 5 deg. with an ADF needle that is just being intelectually dishonest , you know damn well that is pure crap.

I knew how to figure simple time and distance problems when flying probably before you were born, and as far as flying jets go that is being nothing but condesending, has it occured to you that maybe I was flying jets long before you were around?

One more little comment as far as international navigation goes, I just checked my records and during the past six years I have flown to forty six different countries related to my ferry business. ( Have you landed at that many different airports? nevermind different countries? )

Don't you think that I just may know almost as much about flying as you? One more thing Weasly, being beyond receiving distance of VOR's etc. is normal during trans oceanic ferry flights so what exactly is your point?

Now my dear friend, once again I will be at North Weald around the end of May and me and my crew would just love for you to drop by and share your expertise with us. :):):)

Hell if you are really nice I might let you try and fly a real airplane!!

Cat Driver:

.............
:D The hardest thing about flying is kowing when to say no.:D

Chuck...30...Wee Weasley.....15.......New Balls please!:D :D

Chuck,

Something I found interesting, when I renewed my CFI last month, was the new view by the FAA on training.

They are now encouraging CRM. It is not a full blown CRM, but utilization of the person in the right seat.

They are now looking favorably at telling the person on the right to pull out a chart, take the controls of the aircraft and hold a heading, etc.

You still need to demonstrate you are capable of doing it on your own, but they are looking for good use of all the recourses in the cockpit, which includes the instructor and examiner.

It's a small step in the right direction!

Take Care,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

Richard:

CRM when properly thought out and aheared to is one of the most important disiplines in flight safety.

Many years ago I flew for Mobil Oil and they had the best crew coordination I had seen to that point in time and I have used the lessons learned ever since.

For me there should be very slight difference between the Captain and the first officer except the Captain has final authority.

As far as flying goes I split it 50 / 50 period, including changing seats.

There is no restricions as to weather decisions or take off and landing conditions. The pilot flying that leg or sector will perform all flying duties for that leg. Generally speaking if the x/wind or weather minimums are to difficult for the first officer they then are by definition not doable for either pilot.

My basic beliefe is the first officer be brought to Captain standards in the shortest time possible as far as the actual flying skills are concerned.

Experience will then be the only limiting factor to Captancy.

One other very, important item. When I held chief pilot positions in large flight operations if personality clashes arose I would seperate the pilots involved as safety is compromized when two pilots resent each other..It is unavoidable in the real world of human nature, so we should make all effort to watch for and seperate such indivuals.

Another comment, I found the first officers to be invaluable when trying to determine if there was a crew problem that needed correcting, all I did was listen and very often the warning signs were there to see. ( It is amazing what fratrenizing with the crew will bring out in the right circumstances,,usually in a bar.) :):)

......................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

WWW seems to have changed tact from supporting UK GA to JAA EA, ie.

No it won't. Even if half the British PPL's currently training in the US don't ever train due to the extra costs the UK GA scene will benefit from millions and millions of extra revenue every year. Less pilots yes. More money for UK airfields yes.<

and..

This costs jobs in the UK flight training industry and undermines the development and expansion of UK (or JAA) GA flight training.. .. .Its all very well saving a few quid on your PPL course by going to the States but then you shouldn't cry about their being no Flying Instructors jobs for you in this country once you have that coveted CPL

to...

If BAe move your job from Prestwick to Jerez (as they did) then you can hop on the next flight to Spain and relocate without filling in a form and continue your career.


Seems to me that WWW argument doesnt hold any water now asby BAE moving to Jerez, or any other JAA member State, the upshot is the same - GA in UK goes downhill because no one is in the UK to do any flying they are all abroad!!!

JAA or US the money is outside the country.

Not everyone wants to work in Spain, OK if you are single but what about those with famailies, jobs, houses, etc...?

What do you want to do WWW?
Keep money in UK GA or not?

Julian.

Julian - I want to keep money within the economic area that I have a right to work in. Preferably the UK but we are in the EU and JAA now - hence the UK CAA having to come in line with what France and Germany want, i.e. No JAA training in the US.

Local GA is likely to be best supported by locals doing PPL or NPPL courses. People doing professional training would be the more likely to locate around the EU. Either will benefit from the US being disallowed.

More pointedly I want all the OATS instructors to keep their jobs in preference to Hank Banderbuger III at Tyler.

---------
Chuck,

As to the + or - 5 deg. with an ADF needle that is just being intelectually dishonest , you know damn well that is pure crap.

Is it? I know no such thing. If you can't hold an ADF within +-5 degrees you fail your IRT.

I merely raised the point that ADF navigation skills are still very relevant in the UK. I have had to do half a dozen NDB approaches in a Boeing in the last 3 months. I raised this point not as a challenge but you appear to have taken umbrage...

Congratulations on flying before I was born. I will be flying after you are dead. Same thing really.

Cheers,

WWW

www

Congratulations on flying before I was born. I will be flying after you are dead. Same thing really.

It is not the same thing at all. What Chuck is trying to tell you, and which you don't get, is that is that he knows a **** load more about flying than you do. Also there is no guarantee that you will be flying when he is dead. There is also no guarantee that you will ever be as competent a pilot as Chuck, even when he IS dead :)

Not really. If you can't work out a simple bearing/distance/time problem then best you don't fly a jet airliiner..

I really liked Chuck's opinion (or whoever he is now, lol) that a FO should be similarly skilled to his captain. Back to the whole premise of this thread (JAA and FAA training), I find it illustrative that it is possible in JAA land to be a FO in a passenger jet with only 250 hours. That would never happen in FAA land. In fact, in a previous thread you stated that it was a reason why FAA was inferior to JAA.

Now I'm sure that a 250 hour JAA CPL can fly figure of eights around an NDB for hours with far more precision than a 250 hour FAA CPL (I've see the JAA boys training in PHX do it in the sim I am so very impressed). I'm less impressed when I get on a 737 in JAA land and consider the possibility that if the captain makes a bad/borderline decision our 250 hour FO doesn't have the experience to know this is a bad decision, and so use his (probably excellent on paper) CRM skills to do something about it.

But during that thread you were obviously saying that the system should be set up for the professional pilots, it was good because you could be a professional pilot with 250 hours. It's only going to be a matter of time before a plane goes down and the accident report says 'probable cause, inexperience of FO'. You obviously don't care much about the consumer being able to choose how he spends his time and money, but I'd have though you would care more about your passengers! Your FO in an FAA jet may be less precise in his ADF skills, but who cares, he will be competant. The system here is set up to provide him with the vast experience he needs before becoming FO in a jet with 150 people behind him. You have to face the facts, it's better in FAA land, and you should not be stopping people from coming here to train at facilities over here and experience all this. If JAA/Europe was set up like FAA/USA then maybe our low time pilot would be able to be gain some good experience prior to his first real job, but it isn't, so he cannot.

Cheers

In fact the Gulf air or Emirrates (what ever it was) airbus that crashed into the persian gulf a few years ago was blamed on a captain who thought he was the best pilot in the world, and a 250hr FO who was too **** scared to question the captains decisions.....

EA