Brymon - This is unfair!
 

Although I am not quite ready to go job hunting yet, I keep my eye on the Aviation press.

It upset me to see that in Flight this week Brymon (and the other BA fledglings) were advertising for potential first officers. They wanted type rated pilots first off, naturally enough.

But --

what really got my goat was the fact that they would take un-type rated pilots with over 1000 hours

or graduates from a full time ATPL course.

This STINKS!!

Why should somebody who attended a full time course, necessarily be a better pilot than a modular or self improved CPL/IR with 900 hours.

Somebody who attended a 509 (and good luck to them!) is in the fortunate position to (A) be able to pay the fifty grand and (B) spend a whole year not earning whilst they train for it.

You could also have the situation where a 509 student who scraped through gets a job where a modular student with a greater natural aptitude for flying will not get a look in.

Do Brymon only want rich pilots? - or are they in bed with the training schools.

I hope the situation improves by the time I am fully qualified.

Well thats me bumping my gums enough for now, come on Brymon play fair!

:mad:

Yeah annoying isn't it (see other thread here and others besides). Just out of interest, Scroggs/WWW (and everyone else) what are your own views on the acceptance of modular courses over time ?

I myself am currently one of the masses on the modular route and firmly believe that modular guys will get jobs (maybe albeit after having instructed for a while to get to near-ish 1000hrs, probably my route anyway), but is it likely this Integrated/Modular perceived difference is going to be bridged over time ?

I know this could probably be debated till the cows come home, and probably has, but in a nutshell, any thoughts ?

Cheers.

Sorry mate, but Brymon would be well down on my list. Go for some proper airlines first.

WAKE UP one four sick there are not that many jobs out there, most of us cannot be too picky.

I have 1500 hours and would take anything that isn't flying a PA28. Before you ask, OATS 509 graduate.

The job market is still very tough and you need loads of luck to get a job that pays well enough to eat and cover your rent. If I was offered a job by ANY TP airline I would take it!!!!!

F1

Now you have 1500 hours (as an instructor?) would you say that at graduation and 250 hours you were just as capable?

My point is that I know that I still had to think about flying the aeroplane when I had 250 hours, let alone all the other thought requirement when flying an ILS down to minima on a complex jet aircraft.

With 1000 hours I can fly an ILS without thinking so much, leaving my brain to think of other things like calling for prelanding checks!

When I did my non approved IR, I flew with guys who were at the end of a CAP509 course. You could see that there was a high level of thought going into to the handling side of the flight leaving little spare capacity.

At 1000 hours there is considerably more spare mental capacity.

Having said that, a great number of CAP509ers go onto to medium size jets and perform extremely well. Que faire?

The difference between a modular course graduate and an integrated course graduate is probably little or nothing in most cases, given training at reputable schools and good continuity. An individual's ability is likely to be far more relevant than the type of course he or she did.
However, it's Brymon's train (plane) set, and it's up to them what minimum qualifications they require. I can understand why their accountants and insurers would want the reassurance of either plenty of hours, or a full-time CAP509 course for their new hires. RHS of a glass, two man cockpit, is a very high pressure place to be when under training in revenue service in very busy airspace. Brymon has a duty of care to their passengers, and they may well feel that this is the best way to discharge that duty. You, of course, may disagree, but you're not employing them - they are employing you (or not).
At your end of the aviation food chain employment is a buyers' market. There aren't that many opportunities with reputable outfits like Brymon, and they are well aware that they can afford to be fairly picky. It's your job to measure up to their requirements (as many of your peers will), not to complain because you don't qualify. Go and get the hours - and do it quickly, because the jobs market is not going to get any better than it is now. In fact, it will get considerably tighter in the next few months.

Well said Scroggs! All the time there are more pilots than vacancies, Airlines can afford to be picky and make their own rules and conditions for applicants. It doesn't matter whether whether or not you think it's fair. If you get a job, you'll say it's okay, if you don't you won't. It's tough cheese really.

I would suggest that instead of trying to buck the system, you start to play the game. The airlines won't change, no matter how hard you complain so bite the bullet and get what they ask. If it means that much to you, you'll do it.

Yes, I do work for BACE (EMB-145) but it took me 10 years of effort to find a route to get me here. All I can say is it's worth it, even if the goal posts do move now and then. Chin's up and keep plugging away. I met a couple of chaps today doing their ATP conversions who had done 509 courses at Cabair/OATS in 97 and this is their first airline success, so it's not a guarantee doing a 509er.

Scroggs
Why do you say the market is going to get tighter in the coming months.
Just wondering

I believe alot of it down to being at the right place at the right time. I believe I was fortunate to be offered employment by BRAL with 300hours (509) and having completed an FIC rating. However on my type rating they also had employed a guy with also 300hours who did not attend a 509 course. I still firmly believe you can not substitute for experience so the more hours you have the better position you will be in. ;)

In fact rather than the market getting tighter in the medium term there's going to a be a critical shortage worldwide of pilots! So get them licences and keep them valid!!!

I may be stupid for mentioning this but could Brymon be taken to court for discrimination against modular candidates? In affect everybody ends up with the same qualifications at the end of their training. This on Brymons part is very similar to commercial businesses or academia only accepting people with degrees from Oxford or Cambridge.

How much of an out cry would this generate if you went for a job in the city and they only wanted people with degrees from Oxford or Cambridge but not from say York, even though you still ended up with the same qualification. This in effect is what Brymon is doing.

At the end of the day people should be take as individuals and not generalized about.

Another question arises about monopolies. Only around 4 flying schools offer full intergrated courses, thus they can almost demand what they want!

Tarmach,

Are you referring to OATS, Jerez, Cabair and SFT?

Norman,

I am not trying to buck any system.

I am still at least 18 months away from leaving my current profession and trying to getting a flying job.

The point I was trying to raise was for discussion, and discussion can possibly make things fairer over the medium term.

It has got to be wrong that a pilot who could afford to stump up 60000+ pounds is a "good enough" pilot at 250hours whilst a pilot who has paid 30000 pounds at 250 hours (or 850 hours even!)is "not a good enough" pilot.

In fact, whilst I am not sure of the "chapter and verse" aspects, Tarmach has raised an interesting point on the possible legalities of this discrimination.

You say not to moan about things, well I look at the "rumours and news" page quite a lot, so I am just trying to practice moaning so that I am proficient when I am in a RHS. :p

Tarmach, I think you will find that an employer can specify any qualifications he wants, as long as they don't discriminate by race, sex or religion. 'Discrimination' by age or qualification is perfectly legal, if there is a good reason for it. Flight safety is a good reason.
Your hypothetical example of a city employer is not a good one; you'll find that they do discriminate by business school and MBA provider. Note that no airline specifies which school you should have gone to, just what qualifications you should have before applying. The fact that only a few schools offer integrated courses isn't the airlines' fault. It would be different if BA (in this case) owned the school(s) concerned.
The bottom line is that in BA's opinion (and experience), the recent graduate from an integrated course is more likely to pass their demanding training than a low-hour modular graduate, hence the insistence on the (still low) hours for modular candidates. You are wasting your time and energy complaining about it; many airlines (including mine) insist on far greater hours and experience before they will offer even the opportunity to apply. This is not a charity for wannabes, it is hard-nosed business. If you want to get in, you jump through the airlines'hoops - and you knew what they were before you started. As I said in an earlier post, do it soon, because it will get much more difficult as the industry starts winding in its recruiting as the slowdown begins to really bite. Don't be surprised to see 1500 hours being asked for - if any recruits are wanted at all - in 6 months to a year's time.
I'm not trying to put you off, but you do need to be realistic about both your task in making yourself employable, and the airlines' right to employ whoever they want.

Scroggs

Whilst there is little point fighting a system that isn't likley to change because we moan, doesn't mean to say that we should lay down and accept it wihtout comment.

The truth is that Gazeem an others have a perfectly legitimate complaint in that discrimination is being practised by certain airlines. In reality we must jump through their hoops, but whilst this discrimination may not be unlawful, the whole culture that this website has fostered over the years is being demonstrated here on this thread. It is a legitimate comment from Gazeem and others and one which should be treated with support rather than patronizing impatience.

As a an airline pilot, I would be inclined to look within yourself as to your suitability for the job of moderator on a Wannabes forum.

Wannabes need support. They don't need to be put in their place.

If the airlines reckon that 509ers are more likely to pass training than a modular route pilot they have rocks in their head.

It seems like all the people I talk to who have got their first airline job with low hours are 509ers. It's not like a 509er learns SOP's etc and jet famil. in their course.

I think modular guys (and 509ers for that matter) should put together a letter to these airline(s) to be treated fairly in the selection process. It is totally UNREASONABLE to be asking such a huge gap between experience levels because of course type. Everyone IS on a level playing field below 500 hours I reckon. Next thing they'll be asking for 509 course OR 1000 hours jet time together with 7 apollo lunar landings and 4 space shuttle re-entries... get serious!

[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: v1rotate ]

Ivan,

I think Scroggs is an ideal moderator, because he gives this forum a much needed reality check from time to time.

Whilst I don't personally agree with what Brymon are doing, they are far from the only ones. Just think of all that talent they are missing out on!

Anyway my mob are the same, but at least we do make exceptions.

After reading this thread I do think Scroggs was right to insert the reality check and I certainly support him as being a good knowledgeable moderator.

Remember the pilot shortage, as I've heard again and again, is of type-rated pilots with 1000's hours experience. Ok this *may* spur on more sponsorship schemes but, in my opinion, will probably spark a package war where airlines try to tempt crews from other airlines. Its a stupid sounding thing like that that'll probably happen.

From what I have looked at, I would personally go for the integrated approach due to the college-like atmos which will make you work like crazed students with a learning complex. I would only go for a modular route if I could run through it in an integrated type timescale. For any type of learning, repetition in a small time scale reinforces the knowledge in your brain and this is what the airlines may also think; perhaps thats why they favour integrated.

BUT, even if I had trained modular I would still apply; give them a call and discuss the situation, there maybe some flexibility and you shouldn't draw the line at the advert.

Regards

SS

BTW: Remember what the Gulf War did to airline sponsorships at the time, the market just died overnight! Now think what may happen if the trouble in the middle-east really does spark and end up involving our forces...

[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: skysoarer ]

Ivan,
if you have a complaint against my style of moderating, you can of course complain to [email protected] (Capt Pprune) and raise your objections with him. If sufficient people did likewise, and with good rationale, Danny would have to consider withdrawing the Whip from me.
However, if your objection is that you don't like the message I bring, then I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong creek. The fact that you don't like the message is no reason to shoot the messenger, as long as the messenger reports the truth. I do. The world is never ideal, and aviation is no exception to that rule. You would rather I told you that everything is wonderful, that all wannabes will make it, and that all airlines will be eternally grateful that you've put your financial lives on the line for them? Dream on, mate, because it's not gonna come from me.
You guys are all very good at supporting each other with the required platitudes when necessary; you don't need me to do that. I will guide, advise and opine when I am asked to and, unfortunately for you, when I'm not. What I won't do is bull!!!! you. If you want a yes-man for a moderator, you won't find him here.
So, you have to learn to deal with the real world. As I said in my first post on this thread, there is no real difference between a modular course graduate and an integrated course graduate - or, at least, there shouldn't be. However, that's patently not the way some airlines see it, and it's more than likely their experience that's brought them to that judgement. That, for you, is tough. You have the choice of doing whatever that airline requires (if you wish to work for them), or of going somewhere else. You can try an emotional outburst against the airline in question if you wish, and I fully acknowledge the therapeutic value of doing that here, but it won't make any difference.
You all have to realise that to change the world, you have to be in charge, or in a majority. You aren't now, but one day you might be. When that day comes, remember what your problems were when you started.........

V1rotate.
Interesting post. What statistics and experience do you have to back up your claims? Would you suggest that your opinion is more valid than your potential employers' collective experience? Or perhaps would you accept (until you have proof otherwise) that they have a reasonable idea of who they want and why.

[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]

Scroggs,

I take on board the comments and issues that you have made. However in your first post you mention an employer can specify any qualifications he wants. But thats it though! Both 509's and modular students finish with the same qualifications. True the only difference is the time span and a few hours different. Providing the modular chap hasn't taken 20 years to complete his training; its rather academic, isn't it!

Airlines haven't made this decision in light of flight safety but rather for financial reasons because they perceive the 509er to be more competent and easier to train etc.

Yes I'm aware that discrimination does indeed take place by business school and MBA provider, but does this take place 'openly', or by the 'old boys network' of Oxbridge and Eton etc? I think there would be an outcry if a job was advertised asking only for Oxbridge graduates, although I agree this does take place behind 'closed doors'!

In a way the airlines by asking for 509's are pushing business to only one of four flying schools which offer intergrated courses.

I believe both 509 and modular candidates should be treated equally, and then selected on merit from the sim ride!

v1 rotate,

Would a bit of DIY on the MIR space station count?

The only way to change the system is to complain about it and to speak your mind. If enough people do this it will change!

Scroggs,

Over the last few months, I have met either through this forum or in person, 509 students who have got jobs within 6 months of completing their IR. I also know other Upgraders who are still jobless after 2 years. This may be just coincidence however I think the majority of 509 students are younger than their Modular counter parts. This I feel may be a factor as airlines want more years for their investment. Some other airlines (I won't name them) prefer career change pilots and the majority of them are Upgraders who got their licences whilst in their previous profession (me included).

With a requirement of either 509 course or 1000 hours, there is NO clear idea of what the airline wants! If a pilot has say 700 hours of which 400 was in a Turbo prop (Shorts or equiv) and a 509 student straight out of the course, then I cannot see or even begin to understand what the airline wants. I do know that airlines want experience, preferably commercial experience as this minimises the risk of failure in training.

The right personality profile also helps and is an important factor but I won't go into that as this is not really what I'm talking about.

Yes, sure, airlines can set any pre-requisite they want for entry but in this case, I believe that this may be an attempt to minimise the applications received thus time and money opening letters, cv's etc (administration costs). This way, I don't think they are getting the best they can possibly get from the pool of pilots only those that fit between the numbers they ask (509 or 1000hrs etc). Not sure what the statistics are for unemployed pilots (509, modular or military.) who have either licences perhaps I should start a thread?...

So, it is unfair that we have this requirement but aviation is not about fairness anyway. What I want to see is that ALL of us are given the same opportunity to start our careers in this profession be it coming from 509, Upgrade or Military. This may be only one airline that has set this standard but I hope this does not reflect what the future hiring requirements are for other carriers.

Tarmach,

In addition to DIY on MIR, you will also need 5 touch and goes off one approach in the space shuttle. The first one at Mach 5, wheels on, pull the nose up for go around, the second Touch and Go at Mach 4, then the third at Mach 3 etc. Only then, will you application be considered to be put in the pile "For consideration"

v1...rotate... :p

er.. Houston we have a problem with the goes part of the touch and go!!


We basically want pilots selected on merit alone rather than the sole criteria of type of course they have been on or how much money their father has!!

I think that you'll find the buzzwords these days are 'Applicants should have experience commensurate with their age'.

A certain airline has been very happy to snap up 3 of my colleagues who were all 'self-improvers' who went on to get their FI ratings, IRs and 1000 hours. As well as FI time, all 3 were experienced flight engineers in their 30s.

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

OK guys, as a Brymon Capt I'll give you my thoughts. I don't know the exact reasons for the companys policy, but my opinion from the coalface is that the 509er with min hours is a good product and adapts very quickly to the 2 crew SOP driven flight deck quicker and more readily than someone who has 1000 hr in PA28 etc. No I'm not a 509er, I am an ex-GA sector pilot. However I did'nt train on DHC-8 until 2400hr(1000hr GA twin) and I personally found the most challenging aspect of my training to be the 2 crew concept. So there you are thats my opinion.
At the end of the day, It is up to the airline to decide who they want, after all, they are paying!

Thats interesting Deadleg. Perhaps its not the type of course though, but rather the amount of hours flown. For instance flying 1000 hours in a single crew aeroplane you would become very used to making your own command decisions without the influnce of others etc. However, a CAP 509er who has only done around 200 hours would not be totally mindset and would be more flexible in a multi crew environment.

I guess the proof of this would be to look at CAP509ers who have become FIs with over 1000 hours on PA28s before getting that elusive airline job. Then we could see how they adapt to their new environment!

The outfit I work for has found the same thing. Low hours second officers adapt readily to two man sop's. Most of the extra training went to 1000+ hour pilots who had to unlearn all the bad habits they tend to pick up on irrelevant types.

It's no good whinging about the airlines requirement peeps. When I landed a job, the requirement was 1500 hours min + 500 hours on jet or turbo prop. You guys now get an opportunity to work for an airline that 13 years ago was not available. I would have given anything to have had a chance at a job on a commercial jet with such pitifully low hours.

The reality is, is that the entry requirements are driven by the availability of pilots, simple. Sometimes it works in your favour and sometimes it doesn't.

P.S Some guys get command after a couple of years and some have to wait 14+ years. Luck never stops playing a part in this game.

Edit for P.S

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]

Gazeem, why not READ the advert...
It is for a company called CitiExpress. This is the result of the merge between British Regional Airlines and Brymon, not just Brymon.
All the management will be BA and I'm sure over time more BA ploicy and atttutes will be adapted.

As a Captain with this company I will agree with Deadleg, I had 4000hr (most of it single crew) in corporate and similar flying before the Dash 8 I also found the 2 crew concept hard. 509ers are like dry sponges, tell them once and it's remembered. Ga with over 1000hrs normally have enough hands on experience to get through the sim and course.

remember these big company keep stats on what background fits in and gets through the training easily.

Wings Level, why not read my first post on this thread? I said Brymon AND other BA fledglings.

Truth be told I left the flight article at work and couldn't remember the new name Citiexpress.

Well, 27 posts later I certainly have started some debate upon this topic, which was my initial aim.

Also some Brymon air crew have got involved which is no bad thing.

WL - I focused in on Brymon because of my geographic location, I would like to eventually begin my career with a Bristol based airline, but I am realistic and will go where I need to!

:cool:

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: Gazeem ]

v1rotate,
I'm afraid your sample of 509ers/self-improvers/others is pitifully small compared to the number of active commercial pilots in this country, and thus your argument has limited credibility. You also have no insight into the recruiting priorities of the airlines, or the constraints under which they operate, whether they be commercial, financial, insurance-driven, or whatever.
As Max Cont and Deadleg have mentioned, there is considerable experience (not opinion)within the industry that recently-graduated intergrated course graduates are mor easily trained and more likely to succeed than their modular counterparts. That is demonstrable fact, and will not be changed because you might wish it were different.
Don't forget that even the smallest feeder line would prefer to employ a 10,000-hour, type-rated, incident-free, 25 year-old with no ambition to move on to greater things. That not being likely, they set their sights on what they consider to be the best they can get. Don't forget also that the minimum requirements specified in the ad are just that, the minimum qualifications required to apply. The - very few - successful applicants will probably exceed these qualifications by a considerable amount.
At the other end of the scale is the wannabe who would like guaranteed employment in the RHS of a 747 10 minutes after applying for a PPL course. Patently obviously, he or she is going to be disappointed. As you can see, both the airline and the wannabe have to accept a compromise in their ideals. In times of many more pilots than jobs, the airlines get closer to their ideal. In times of more jobs than pilots, the wannabe may expect employment with fewer hours or other strings.
Historically, you are able to get an airline job with fewer hours than ever at the moment; be grateful for this. As was mentioned above, not so long a go you would have needed 1500 hours and commercial experience to get a shot at a Jetstream 31. At the moment, some have a shot at a 737 with less than 500 hours. They are the exceptionally lucky ones, and there will alway be some of those. The rest of us have to slog to close th gap between what we can offer and what the airline wants.
Life ain't fair, and never will be. Don't waste too much of your time and energy complaining about something that is actually quite logical and reasonably even-handed. There are more important battles, although it might not seem so from your point of view just now. Your priority must be to make yourself as employable as possible, not to achieve the minimum and wait and see which airline will consider themselves lucky to have you!

Scroggs,

Out of interest how many pilots at Virgin were modular students or self improvers compared to CAP509s, roughly?

Thanks,

Tarmach

I have to add my voice to Scroggs. There seem to be an incredible number of people on this site who think the moment they move into the world of aviation, all standard business practices go out of the window - that airlines and operators exist solely to allow wannabes to realise their ambitions. Of course this can never be. Several people have mentioned how terrible it would be if City jobs were handed out to only those from the right universities - wake up everyone, that is the ONLY way it works, and ever will work for that matter.

I have seen many posts from people who feel it is their right to have a job flying after all of the training - if only life were that fair. I just cannot understand how such an idealogical viewpoint can exist amongst so many 2nd career-ers on this site. And to accuse Scroggs of not offering sufficient encouragement? ?? What is this, a forum for intelligent adults or some sort of creche?!? Maybe I'll start a thread elsewhere about trips to the zoo and set an essay writing challenge - "My Favourite Day...." In the meantime, get a grip people.

Tarmach,
by the time a pilot has sufficient experience to join Virgin, the training they underwent at the beginning of their career is pretty much irrelevent. Our operation (excepting Virgin Sun, which will shortly be defunct) is long-haul, widebody 4-engine stuff only. The airline some years ago decided that 2500 hours with multi-engine experience (preferably commercial multi jet) would be the minimum for application. Inevitably there are some exceptions to that, but these have never worked well!
For reasons immaterial to this argument, Virgin is a very popular potential employer; we get thousands of applications from qualified individuals for every job available. Therefore the average new-hire at Virgin has much more than the stated minimum. Typical new-hires may be FOs with 757/A320 operators with 4000+ hours, or military fast jet drivers with 3000+ hours, or mil transport drivers (like me) with 7000+ hours, or even 55 year-old ex-BA 747 drivers with 25000+ hours. You get the picture. Whether any of us were CAP509 or self-improvers is lost in the past!
In any case, the conditions under which we started flying were very different to what pertains now, and not very helpful to you.
Incidentally, even the Virgin Sun A320/1 operation insisted on 1500 hours. We did toy with a CEP scheme, which netted four lucky peeps a part-sponsorship, but they would probably not have gone straight to an A320 RHS on graduation. They may have been placed with someone else for some experience-gathering first, or they may have taken the less-satisfactory cruise-pilot route (now also closed) on our A340s and B744s. What will happen now to those that graduate I'm not sure, as the A320/1 seats are no longer available and it'll take tham a long time to qualify for long-haul. Similar questions hang over our younger flight-engineers who, as the B742s retire, were hoping to retrain as pilot and get an A320 seat with us. These guys also have many thousands of hours of long-haul flying, although in the third seat.

Naive. As a potential wannabe (although unlikely as my eyes are not class 1) the attitude of some of the forum members is amazing.

As a senior business manager (read hirer) for a non aviation firm I set the rules on who I hire and what sort of back ground they have and what sort of skills I need them to have achieved. I have the overall good of the company (and the clients we service) to consider. Providing I do not discriminate on no-gos (age / sex / religion / disability) I can call it as I want. Just as the selectors for the airlines can.

If an airline decides that 2,000 hours total, comprising of 100 GA hours, 900 twin and 1,000 turbo prop is what they want, and you must have been trained by Mrs Smith at Bristol - then they set the rules. Although the catchment in this case might be quite small :)

The trick is to read these rules and events and to try and anticipate them - and that is where this forum really works. In simple terms if the predicted trend looks to be that RHS are only going to go to degree educated pilots then you must get a degree or work yourself into the trend somehow. As Scroggs has said - when you get over 5,000 hours the route in doesn't matter (getting there does) but from this side of the fence the route is everything. It's no good complaining that your skills and training are wrong or that their recruitment process is stone headed. Work with them not against them otherwise you will be sitting on the bench for a long time. :p Always think of the feeder routes - learn from successfull wannabes - how, what, where , courses etc...

Gazeen Ivan How would you like it played? I find play by my rules or I will shout and scream, a bit churlish. Until the ad came out there did not seem any prospects for Brymon et al in the near future. They will take about another 80 or so pilots out of the system. For people who have climed a big mountain to get as far as they are, must be focused. So look on the positive side there always is one.
EM PE

I think the general consensus of opinion on the criteria set by any airline, and thus the criteria that must be met by any prospective employee, is an accepted one by most people. If they stipulate 1000 hours and you must attend the interview dressed as Batman, then so be it, that's the way you play it, no question.

However, and please do not take this as a whinge as I have already stipulated that I am more than happy to do whatever it takes (probably instruct for a year or two) to get those all important hours, but will there come a time when the APPROVED modular route is seen as attractive as 509 ?

Personally, although maybe a limited amount of truth in the GENERAL case of 509'ers being an easier package to train than modular (still not totally convinced), the ability and the learning capacity/ability can not in all honesty vary that greatly between the two populations as a whole.

All comments welcome.

And yes, agree with post above 100%. Good luck to any guys going for these posts, any recruitment and tales of success always good to see.

Cheers.

Aviation as a whole is not very fair.Where else do you have to foot the bill for your training ?? In some cases enough to buy a small house!!!
Whinging at Brymon for their entrance qualifications is going to do what?Okay so they get rid of the bit about the modular guy with less than a 1000 hours.Now we all can apply.....But if Brymon want modular guys with more than 1000 hours,those under that figure will not get picked.
I agree with what was posted above about trying to second guess what the qualifying experience is and trying to achieve it.
And if experience has got to be comensurate with age...I will be nearly 38 when I`m qualified,modular route as well,so will be stuffed on that as well.But it`s my decision to have a career change,nobody else`s.
Most of these Airlines have a reg.VAT number not a Reg. Charity number.They are in business to make money and as they keep telling us they are not short of applicants.So like Scroggsie says it`s Brymon`s ball and we can`t play.....Mom...Mom... :( :( :(

This is a tough old subject and I do not think it has a straight answer. The reason most of us choose modular is because it is cheaper and can also be completed without finishing your job and getting into loads of debt.

The answer in my view is as follows: If you complete the ATPL by the modular route factor in an instructors rating, this is required because it is better than sitting around and just sending out cv's. 1000 hours seems to be the norm so aim for that. Or take out more loans quit the job and do it integrated.

Just for some more info this is from the British European Website:


:eek: :eek: First Officers ATPL (Frozen), Perf 'A', CAA 509:300 hours total, MCC, minimum 1000 hours.
:confused: :confused:

This is really disappointing!

If this is the case what is the point of the modular route? Why not scrapping the modular route to protect the less wealthy wanabees?

Nevertheless, I still would like to see a study that demonstrates the claim that cap509rs are more likely to be successful pilots. I cannot see any science in this claim.

I think most of the people just choose one route or the other according to the their financial situation. If I had the money I would definitively go for the integrated route even knowing that the modular route would work best for me. I am not the type to sit in a classroom and let everybody else organise everything for me. I prefer to follow my own timetable at my own pace (which is not necessarily slow). As a researcher you get used to work alone and your sense or responsibility and organisation is much improved by this.

I think that both routes have advantages and disadvantages but I am inclined to say that integrated courses prepare people to pass exams which does not necessarily mean more knowledge. On the flying itself I can't see any difference at all. I thought that the only difference between the two routes was that the theory involves more hours of ground schoold for the 509 and the modular route allowed more self study and less classroom hours. If there is any differences on the flying training please let me know!

I know that there are a lot of you guys out there that do not agree with me but this is just an opinion. I still look at this as discrimination between who has and who hasn’t the money. I don’t believe that who goes through the modular route is a less able pilot.

I just hope that this changes as I am following the modular route because I cannot find the money for the integrated route, I cannot leave my current job because I need the few pounds I get out of it for the flying and I want to finish my PhD as I am not the type of person to give up easily what I have started.

Good luck everyone!

...and sorry for the english ....

TheNavigator,

I completely agree. It is discriminatory. I take Scrogg's and other's points on board about it being up to the airline and we should make sure we have the qualifications they require rather than just whinge about it. Fair enough, but this doesn't change the fact that we believe they are wrong in their decision and I don't see why we can't whinge while we work towards becoming what the airlines desire of us. Isn't that what this forum is for?