Good luck - the journey to a fATPL isn't easy. For some finding a job is difficult for others relatively simple.

If it's something you want to do then why not? You'll see a mixed bag of comments on pprune, some of which are supportive and some not. Take them all with a pinch of salt. Only you know how capable you are and the impact this may have on your family....whether positive or negative.

If I were you, I'd buy a share in an aircraft and just enjoy flying.
On our refrigerator door is a sign "Get your kids into flying!!!. You'll never have to worry about them being able to afford drugs."
You have a share in six children, a house and a wife, and an ex.
More than enough to be getting on with.
Your goal should be get them a PPL at age 17.
The goal for you should be a flight instructors license.

Exactly the point I wished someone made .I do not see why would one discourage someone to pursue their passion just because there is a chance the he/she might of those who find it difficult to get that first job.

Actually I was going to say why don't you look into the fixed axis microlight world. Once you do you PPL(A) convert to a fixed axis microlight, to become a fixed axis microlight instructor you wont need CPL or ATPL theoretical knowledge, you will just need to get the required total fixed axis hours and do the microlight instructors course. Hour building on a fixed axis mircolight will be cheap. Also fixed axis microlight instructors get paid 40 to 45 pound per flight hour, much higher than group A instructors. This will be the cheapest way for you to get into paid aviation employment. As a fixed axis instructor you may not be earing that much less than what you do now. While working as a fixed axis instructor continue to save towards doing the frozen ATPL. As you are flying for a living there is no rush to get the frozen ATPL done, and even in 10 years time at 31 you are still plenty young enough to make a go of it.

^ I was once told by a C42 flying school that microlight hours can't towards towards the CPL?

No they don't that is correct, and you have totally missed the point I am trying to make. The point is, it will get him the cheapest and quickest way into a full time aviation employment, Fixed axis mircrolight instructors can make 25 to 35 k a year, pretty much what he is earning from two jobs.
If he is desperate to fly he will be flying with the minimum investment. He can still over the years use these earnings to save to do the CPL, hour build and ME IR. At the end of 10 years he will have only have 200 hour CPL/IR as far as "group A" hours are concerned, but potentially 1000s hours on fixed axis microlights, although the fixed axis hours do not count it is potentially a better flying CV than 200 hour CPL/IR while trying to stay current in two non aviation related jobs.

Go for it.

I would seriously look into the CBIR route though. If you get you IR(R) then you can be logging hours towards your CBIR whilst hour building and doing the exams.

Council Van says my advice is incorrect.
At age 21 he has three children of his own and three step children.
Six children is an unbelievable responsibility to take on at such a young age.
I certainly couldn't have managed with even a girlfriend at that age.
I was strictly one night stands only, no strings, no commitments.
At 21 I was living at home having spent all my money on a CPL/IR and guess what! No job. I was dispatch riding around London, trying to save money.
At 25 I rented a room in an old ladies house whilst I built jet time. If it didn't fit in the back of my first car, I didn't own it.
At 26 I was dossing on a airline pilots couch trying to find work.
Just how do you do what's required to make it with six kids in tow?
I did not get married until I was 40 years old.
I did not have my last child until I was 50.
As the children age they will become more demanding of your time and money.
Unless he completely abandons them, I do not see how he can make it.
Having children is a change in life moment when you sacrifice your well being for theirs.
Now I don't know anybody more progressive than me in encouraging upward mobility in this profession.
But I do not encourage it at the expense of children's well being.
To that end.
What would be wrong in making his children successes over his personal goals.
Where were his goals when he was making babies?
Yes, it's very hard to make a living as a flight instructor. Impossible I'd say.
So, if he was a flight instructor with his own plane that he maintained.
Then he could make at least six children productive useful members of society.
If he selfishly pursues this career, then I fear for his children future.

The last thing I wanted to do was renew my flight instructor licenses.
The next to last thing I wanted to do was buy a Cessna 172.
The next last thing I wanted to do was spend six months and sixty large completely restoring the plane.
The next last thing I want to to is spend all my time that I'm not flying for a living, teaching my three children how to fly.
But this is what you do, when you have kids.

Nothing with wrong with having kids early .It is life my friend .My kids have a top life like any other happy kids.
I actually took on my wife who had three kids already ,which are now my step sons.Sounds like a man enough to step up to the plate in my opinion and they would take a bullet for me any day ! And I am in it to give them a rock lean on .
Disregard your negativity because I will make it and certainly not at the expense of my kids happines,well being or their future.

Couincil Van, that must be a while back, no turboprop first officer job currently pays enough that it would get you a salary multiple to buy a family home. In most parts of the country not even a 1 bed flat, Haven't seen a turbo-prop job that pays much more than 26k starting for someone with no previous turbine time, (31k for a channel island based operator but in the channel islands 31k is only the same as 26k on the mainland due to the accommodation expense). 3.5 x 26 = 90k,

Your right, I'm wrong.
Your 30 hours of experience, knows much more than my 30,000 hours.

Lets say your successful, and you get an airline job.
I was recently looking at the starting salary of FlyBE pilots, and the 18,000 Pounds training contract. I wonder how anybody could support themselves with whats left over.
Lets say your exceptionally successful and get a Ryanair or Easy Jet job with a higher starting salary, and it's 25,000 Pound training contract. I understand they have now gone to a zero hour contract. Still the pay is peanuts, and you couldn't support a family of eight on it.

But your likely to get a British Airways widebody Captains job straight out the shoot.

Somebody with some sense, please say exactly what the starting salaries at UK airlines are?

Good luck, your gonna need it.

Eastern about 22k a year with an 18 k three year bond.
Flybe about 26k a year
Aurigny 31 k (but paying Guernsey accomadation rates)
Isles of Scilly Skybus about 22k per year
Logan Air around the 24 to 28 k region.
King Air First Officer jobs about 18 to 25 k a year.

So on average as I said about 25/26k a year, there may be a bit of sector pay to add.

Modular Candidate with low hours has no route into Easyjet.

Ryanair may be a good way to build the heavy hour quickly but you need top put up 28000 Euros for the type rating if you do get in, not sure on his current plan he could afford the type rating as well.

Thank you portshorbourflyer.
Likely first job (if you are successful) 18,000 to 26,000 Pounds.
I'll not include the 28,000 at Logan Air because you'll spend the extra 2,000 on thermal underwear and heating bills. My god, it's bloody cold up there.
I'll not include the 31,000 at Aurigny because you'll spend the extra 5,000 on housing. My god, it's bloody expensive there.
Now take that 18,000 to 26,000 range, lets call it 22,000.
Now take off taxes and health insurance and national stamp and all the other government fees.
What exactly do you end up with?
15,000 max?
For eight people, oh come on. You'll starve to death.

Isle of Scilly Skybus, that's a new one on me.
I thought it was British European Airways Helicopters with a Sikorsky S-61 out of Penzance.

However, Ryanair, Wizz et al pay double that starting salary. Or used to last time I did the research. Yes you have to front the TR, but loans are available from banks based on your offer of employment.

I've been folowing this thread for a couple of days now, and here's my 2 cents.

I believe, nobody said that it's too early to have kids. It was more gesture of sympathy to mention that it's a tough situation, and You only deserve :D for being on top of that.

It is very important, that Your second half supports You in such a circumstances, and You are really happy in that sense and should be thankful.
Just out of curiosity, the question I have is - what would You do if Your wife was not so supportive? Would You still pursue Your dream? I will understand if it's personal and You won't be willing to answer that.

I think what others are trying to tell is not so negative, but rather a reasonable look at the reality. So You are sure, that now You are coping with supporting Your family pretty good. I don't know how old Your kids are, but they will grow, and the demands will be higher - school, clothes, college, uni, etc. You will have to continue Your training, and financial demands for that will also be higher. Especially when You are doing ME and trying to keep IR current. So taking into consideration these 2 things, there is a high possibility, that at some point in time You will face a decision to make - whether it's something for Your kids, or Your training. If You never face that question, then You are a lucky man! But in case You do, You have to be prepared for that, because You will have to live with this decision for the rest of the life further on.

In any case. Despite all the facts, I do hope that You can make it, and that Your kids and wife will not suffer from that. But just be careful with Your decisions, and also remember the fact, that there may be multiple ways to pursue Your dream, so don't get discouraged, if the way it happens is not what You expected.

Also, have You considered the West Atlantic cadetship? Not sure if the program is still actual, and they defo not taking new cadets on board now, but hopefully it may become available later. You could get there with PPL on hands.

Taking my first steps
 

Hello everyone, I hope you've all had a good Christmas and haven't had to work too much.

I believe I am posting this in the correct forum due to my long term intentions, please let me know if not. In short I am seeking advice on how best to proceed from 0 flying hours to an airline career. Please forgive any incorrect terminology used.

A little about me...
I have had an interest in aviation for many years, my childhood desire to "become a pilot" recently became an achievable prospect when I discovered how cost effective PPL/PPL(m) licences and associated hour building can be. I have always had a keen interest in mathematics, physics and mechanics so I believe my aspiration to be a pilot is realistic. I currently work as an ambulance technician and the ambulance crew working model appears to bear a very close resemblance to that of a flight crew, which I believe may stand me in good stead. I'm 28 years old. I do not have the cash to obtain my fATPL/MPL and type rating.

The purpose of this post...
I'm seeking advice from any willing members on how to start flying, I invite your feedback and criticism of my plan as I would hate to take the wrong path.

I am a risk averse person so jumping straight onto a c£100k flying programme either sponsored or self-funded is not for me. My current intent:
1) Obtain my PPL and buy/hire/syndicate a plane.
2) Log 'a few hundred' flying hours to ensure that piloting is not a novelty that I will tire of, and to confirm whether it is something that I have some aptitude for.
3) Apply for my class 1 medical (at present I see no reason to fail this).
4) Either obtain my CPL and fly professionally for a few hundred/thousand hours or apply for the highly competitive cadet pilot schemes by Virgin/BA, etc...
5) If CPL route, keep applying for cadet pilot schemes until successful or until I can afford to fund my own training.

At stage 1 I am keen to obtain my PPL(m), my research indicates it would cost £3-5k to obtain the licence then a 3-axis microlight could be purchased for c£5k. I feel that if I did not progress onto commercial flying I would likely continue flying for leisure, and a 3-axis microlight appears considerably cheaper to fly than a category A plane. I would also be able to own rather than syndicate a microlight vs a Cessna/Piper, etc...

Stage 4 is something I am uncertain of, a CPL appears to be achievable for £10-15k but is it enough to start experiencing true commercial flying and earning enough money to be able to afford an fATPL/MPL?

I'm aware of other qualifications that might be added on as/when affordable or relevant such as instrument rating, multi-engine, multi-pilot, etc...but I'm not sure where they play their part between a PPL and a sponsored/self-funded fATPL/MPL.

Any advice, suggestions, opinions, constructive criticism is welcomed.

Thank you.

Hi Andy,

In terms of the best way to start flying is as you say, go and get some lessons from your local club and start working towards your PPL (A), not the microlight as I'll explain. This will allow you to get some advice and you'll learn what the different types of licenses and rating all mean, and what you need. But more importantly it will allow you to see if flying is really for you and how much you actually enjoy it. I understand what its like when researching all of this and not being able to work out what it all means.

The question I'd have for you is what sort of pilot you want to become? Recreational, instructor, bizjets, airline? There are many ways to achieve all of these. If it's commercial flying you want then don't bother with the microlights as that time wont count towards your CPL, so its kind of a waste of money aside from the fun factor.

The cheapest option is the modular route and will cost ~£60K. This is done by building on licenses ratings and experience and is generally more flexible. You will get PPL, night rating, build hours, ATPL theory exams, CPL, multi engine and instrument rating. Also an MCC if you want to fly multi crew. All of this is whats known as a fATPL. There is the more expensive integrated options where it's all done in one package. Integrated normally costs at least £100k. Have a look at the integrated vs modular thread.

Good idea to try and apply to the BA/Virgin cadetships however they are highly competitive, but you do have a job waiting for you at the end. It's also a good idea to have a bit of flying experience when you apply for these, even if its only a few hours, it shows good motivation.

Also I would recommend getting your class 1 first, as you don't want to spent tons on training only to find you cant get the medical at the end.

Just my thoughts, feel free to message :8

How to be a cadet？
 

i am a high school student in China and being a pilot is always my dream. But my left eye has a eyesight of 250. So can i still become a pilot?
What about learning flying in foreign country likes Canada, usa? And what about the learning fee?
i'll be very thankful if there is some one to provide me advice
Thanks!

First things first, you should go to your local airclub and get your derriere in a light piston aircraft : you'll see if it's for you !

I'm on the virgin cadet scheme and we do have a few guys who took this same route. They got PPLs, got hours up to around a hundred whilst doing other jobs and then joined the scheme in late twenties/early thirties. So its a good sensible plan.

Pilotflying rocks, KayPam and FlyANA thank you for your replies. I've been on a block of shifts at work so could not reply sooner.

I only just realised that the administrators have moved my post into this merged thread which is ideal as I can now browse the entire thread when I get chance.

Pilotflyingrocks.
Thank you for your reply. My intent (if all goes well) is commercial passenger airline flying, at the moment I'm thinking long-haul will be my preference but can see the benefits of short-haul too. My understanding is that most have to start short-haul for take-off/landing experience.

My "local" club which is a mere 5 miles away is a microlight one, albeit with fixed wing microlights available. I will research my nearest club that offers lessons in light aircraft and visit them for an orientation and a trial lesson. The main reason I considered a microlight as a first step was because it would be cheaper per hour than a Light Aircraft to continue as a hobby if I did not progress to commercial flying, however it appears I could still buy/fly a fixed-wing microlight based on a PPL(A) licence for the "fun" aspect. If it doesn't build hours then it does seem to be wasted money at this stage.

I researched the modular vs integrated schemes, however being realistic I don't think either route is affordable for me on an effective timescale without the use of finance, for which I would likely need to utilise the cadet pilot scheme's guarantor provision. I discovered that applicants that spread their modular training over several years do not have much success applying to the larger, long-haul and higher-salaried airlines when compared to those who took integrated courses.

I'm under the impression that I should learn and hour build for leisure whilst applying to the cadet schemes.

The Class 1 medical is of course a very good idea to obtain first!

KayPam: Thanks, that's exactly what I plan to do and I'm quite looking forward to it :).

FlyANA: Thanks for your confirmation that others have followed a similar path. I am very keen to know more about the Virgin cadet scheme but I'll browse the forum some more before asking direct questions.

I've downloaded a couple of phone apps that cover PPL theory test subjects and so far the majority of what I'm reading is sinking in first time, probably because I find it genuinely interesting. Hopefully a positive sign of things to come :8.

Thanks again.

Realistics
 

Hello Pprune,

Firstly, I'm not going to blabber on about my dream, I would just like some good solid advice on what I can do with my current situation and if you do read all of this I appreciate the time taken out of your day.
I'm 19 years old (20 in august), and Im pondering picking back up the goal of flying for a major airline (and overcoming all the hurtles that come with trying to reach that point).

I hope you excuse me, but just background info on myself. I left Sydney when I was 15 ( a year after my first TIF) to come to a specialty aviation high school in Perth without my parents (which I dropped out of) after passing the entry test with only two incorrect answers of the 35 questions.

I made the choices on my own, I found the school on my own, and I taught myself the knowledge required (could have passed that test at 12) but I'm just trying to show that the determination box is ticked( and I know dropping out may sound otherwise but conflicting situations forced me to and leaving your home at 15 is not an easy task) while hopefully not sounding to obnoxious. Moving on I'm also considering doing an online degree as I do work fulltime and I'm not 100% sure but I'm getting the jist that this is acceptable by the airlines(can anyone confirm who has a job and did an online degree??) I'm currently earning 40k a year and I'm hoping this might just, just be enough to pay for hours on top of living expenses.

The biggest question which will stir up the mix is "Best flight school" now I have no care in the world for what the admins are like,or if the owner has attitude. I just want my hours and an effective instructors in a cheap( I know that won't happen) and timely manner with a school that gets students into airlines. I know as I work full time this could set me back in time but I'm committed to work as hard as possible, and I really don't care about pay or living conditions as long as I can say I've made it. By which time id probably hate it, but I can say it's fulfilled and my life has been lived how I wanted.

Cheers guys

You can get VET-FEE HELP for integrated flight training in Australia now. One of my mates left work last year to attend flight training adelaide and they are fee help approved at last check. Course overall isn't that expensive. If you earn 40k a year, have some savings, family who can spot you, or (like most young blokes back in Australia) have a fuel guzzling insurance nightmare of a car that you can sell you can probably go right on course.

Fee-HELP is under attack at the moment so talk to them early. Im not completely sure whats happening with it.

Would anyone leave a secure 110k job doing something you enjoy with many benefits to take a place on a CTC type scheme?
I'm considering doing just that. Complete with enormous loan, 18 months of no salary and then a massively reduced standard of living from that which I'm used to. Along with 9 years of loan repayments. Am I crazy? Family and friends think so. Early thirties. I won't bang on about how this has always been my dream etc... Thanks guys and good luck to all.

I would, but I would save up some dosh first so you can make the leap without the loan. You earn 110k, so this shouldn't be too hard. Oh and try and keep your toe in the water with your previous career so you've got a plan b in case it doesn't work out for you. Good luck !

Absolutely. If you have a ppl already?

Phew. Why don't you give it up if you don't like it?

Personally, and only personally, the question, would I rather work in a shop for £7.50 an hour, or would I rather fly the world for £7.50 an hour, can only be answered one way. For some of us it is more than simply a job.

Thanks for the answers guys. Good to see two totally different opinions. Council Van I was thinking more along the lines that you are. I have money and plenty of time off to go flying as I wish. Would I be happier becoming an airline pilot? Probably! But thats the million dollar question..I don't know. Every job becomes just a job doesn't it.

The fact he has even considered it must tell you someone though. Personally, if he earns that salary I would simply save up and go Modular, then even if he hates it by the end of CPL it's an experience, he has an IR so can fly anywhere (within reason) and can continue working at his current role. Not many of us can say we are in that kind of incredible position to be able to do so. I enjoy my job, I would still fly even for the current 40k I earn now given the choice. Please don't discourage people based on your perspective of a job you aren't too fond of anymore.

A tiny bit more detail.. It definitely wouldn't be £7.50 with Wizz. It's an established cadet route into a long haul airline. The pay still starts very low obviously but longer term is certainly nothing to complain about. Modular may well be the better route regarding finance and overall enjoyment. As well as burning no bridges etc.

summer weather and U.S. state
 

Hi everbody,

I’m searching for a good flight school in the US for the summer months July and August. I want to do my PPL (A). I read a lot about a few flight schools and the wise advice to go to the part of the US where less tourism is.
I just wonder which states (and maybe flight schools) you recommend because of the summer weather. I guess I have to avoid Florida. I only get 6 weeks off working to achieve my goal.

Sorry.. My post wasn't clear. I meant it's not £7.5 and it's not Wizz. It's a UK LH airline. Your view is still valid though! It's probably less than Wizz after loan repayments!

There is another thread on this where a lot of this is answered. A 30 second summary...
Local students mainly go home, guys from far afield or abroad will stay weekends.
Best to ask the school about where the training is done. You would need a very good reason to not go where they ask you to go.
If you bring packed lunch and live frugally I'd say £50 a week could be done fairly comfortably, not including lodgings. If you eat well, go out once in a while and go for a few drinks after exams, travel home etc, bump that up accordingly.
Starting salary is a bit of an unknown depends on which country you will be based in, 25-40k at a very loose guesstimate(?)
I understand bases will be assigned towards the end of the course, depending on the needs of the business.

MrWingNut. From the little you describe of your position I would personally recommend to keep your current job and use the money to fly GA as a hobby which, in my opinion, is much more fun. See how much money you would lose in loss of earnings / 'enormous loan' in the years until you get your command and can match you current salary (that is if you have the aptitude for command in the end).. think about how much amazing GA flying that could buy.

Jamesgrainge. I think you have to cut commercial pilots who have become jaded some slack. I suspect the kind of personality that pushes themselves to become a pilot be it PPL or ATPL always looks for new challenges in life. I used to see it in PPLs who would rapidly give up flying after taking their friends/families for a few local flights. Once you have achieved whatever you wanted to for many it becomes boring. Airline flying is very regimented and rightly offers little room for 'having a bit of fun' thus not particularly interesting after a fairly short period of time. I see many disinterested senior FOs awaiting command who have run out of challenges. Add onto this constant exams and airlines regularly in crisis/job uncertainty you can perhaps see why people are sometimes hesitant to recommend it to someone with a high paying, secure, enjoyable career.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

tom775257 thanks for the time to write that. Appreciated!

MrWingNut, I was in the same position you are with the seemingly small but realistically huge difference that my high paying Job was not enjoyable at all so I have just left and am about to start training again after stopping years ago. I did however save up quite a lot and am fortunate enough that I will have no debt on completion. So if you are earning that much and you aren't sure (which you don't seem to be asking on here) then save up some money while doing as advised above and do some flying. I did PPL,NVFR and ME/P and before I went overseas with work and stopped training but that was all I needed to know that I wanted to do it forever. There were just no jobs at the time so I waited for a while!! Good luck whatever you do!

As for the having fun and being challenged bit, I agree with Jamesgrainge - I have no first hand experience as I am not a pilot yet - but one small note I might add on/ask about is something that I have observed with my pilot mates. There seems to be a lot of room for fulfilling those personal growth needs outside of the job isn't there?. Obviously the job has contact hour limits for safety but almost every pilot I know has a fair bit of time off and some crazy hobby that they are extremely skilled and invested in, or they are amazing parents to their kids (a fulfilling challenge I know about first hand). When I spent almost all of last year in a pretty awful desert with work without a single day off I would get emails from my pilot mates who (although they work very hard for not great airlines) sometimes forget that 8-10 days off a month is actually pretty amazing. I know that I am in no way qualified to talk and I know that these days off are necessary for work life balance and safety but sometimes I think pilots forget that most people in our developed countries are working 6 10 hour days a week for 10 days of annual leave a year and the same if not worse pay check!!

again not having a go at all! (especially as its the job I want more than anything), just observation based on conversation and research like reading that Wiz Link above. Ill just have to see how it goes in the long run!

Hello guys and happy new year! Found this amazing forum after looking for some advice with regard to a320 flare techniques, which I'm using on my study level simulator. After seeing multiple threads (and mostly those like this very one) I decided to join. I am 15 years old and I live in Greece. Being a pilot has been my dream since a very young age. My hobby is simulating real aircraft operations to the ultimate way. That's why I have invested in buying high quality simulators, which even impress real pilots. I am a top student and I have a good health but, I am looking for some advice when it comes to reaching the right seat. Money is an issue, I think is too unsafe as well to get an ATPL as soon as I finish school. So my questions are, are there cadet programms for EU citizens? Do you think it's worth it to do a job until the age of 30 and then get your ATPL? All answers and advice are welcome, thank you for reading.

Newbie Questions
 

Hi, I'm new here.

I am a very keen to seat myself on the right seat of a commercial airliner and have done a lot of research but any help is very appreciated of.

So I am a year away from completing my secondary study and I believe I have two options:

Go to University
or
Do the EasyJet MPL or BA FPP (If the chance to is there)

Which would be really appropriate?

If I should go to university:
Is it a good idea to even take an aviation course, if it is, can you suggest a good aviation course for university that I should consider (particularly in Scotland).

Thanks for any help and tips, once again its really appreciated.

The BA FPP is currently undergoing a review of how it works, so I wouldn't expect that vacancy to open anytime soon, however I would be confident of it opening whilst you are at university. The EasyJet MPL opens every autumn around the same time its a consistent guarantee; opens around the same time as the Virgin Atlantic and Qatar Airlines equivalents.


You have a lot of other options you could do your ATPL and then apply to the Jet2 Apprentice scheme or apply as a cadet to Ryanair.


University wise I don't know much about that, my best advice would be to a course you have a passion for and want to investigate further.


If you have never flown an aircraft I would suggest having a few flights from your local flight school or even go for your PPL, but you have to keep under 90 hours if I remember correctly to be eligible for the EasyJet MPL.


I would recommend getting your medical sorted, before you commit to anything.


Also, why not get Lockheed Martins Prepar3D and some study sim aircraft it will help you no end in understanding systems. Also if you get on the Vatsim network it will really improve your short term memory!