Paying Up front
 

As someone who can remember a certain CAP509 school at Lydd/Manston which went bust with many students loosing tens of thousands, it seems worth repeating the excellent advice given in Clive Hughes' book (which he repeats about 5 times) about getting a commercial licence. DON'T PAY UP FRONT

I would rather lose the 5 or 10% discount that lose the lot. Yet another flight school may have gone under today with students possibly loosing money.

Its good advise although its certainly not old.

The first time I enquired about training it was the first thing I was told..

And again many books you buy say this also.. nearly every book I have tells you this.

But are there really peeps out there who have paid up front??, does that happen any more?

FatFlyer,

Another option is to pay up front by credit card. That way you can enjoy the discount and if they go bust you can get money back.

If your credit limit is not high enough to pay the course, you can over pay your credit card so you have a credit. This will give you a higher credit limit.

Before you even get to this point you should check into the school you are thinking of attending. Things you need to know:

1) Are they in good standing with their bank and their vendors?

2) Is the school growing or shrinking?

3) What is the school's trend for student enrollment (increasing or decreasing over the last few years)?

4) What is the condition of their equipment (when schools have financial problems aircraft maintenance is one of the first things to suffer)?

These checks will increase your odds of completing the training at the school of your choice without them going bust.

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

Re paying up front with credit cards in case it all goes belly up. Good advice in the UK, but if you use a UK credit card to buy anything overseas (including flight training) then you may well have some real problems getting anything out of the credit card companies. Something about some interpretation of whichever law it is that covers this stuff that the banks say means UK only, and everyone else says means anywhere.

No idea about any of this with non-UK cards.

And Richard, I'm not having a pop at your advice, all your posts I've seen have all been straight good advice - just something you might not be aware of.

humpty,

If you find out that there is a problem for people recovering their money with a U.K. credit card at a U.S. school, let me know. I will pass on the warning.

I will also check into it.

Thanx for the Heads Up,

Richard

Paying up front
 

I have read a number of times that you should never pay up front for your flying training..... but I have applied to start a residential ground school course at a well known school and they firstly want a £1000 deposit and secondly, the whole cost of the course must be paid before you start. Has anybody found any way around this at all as I really don't want o be handing over £5500 upfront......

Cheers, mnp

It's well known that you shouldn't, the Guru of all information aeronutical (Clive Hughes) advocates this too.

I would suggest though, if you REALLY REALLY REALLY must, and I don't think there is a case for this... put it on a credit card. That will offer you limited protection.

But before you hand over any of your hard earned at all, check check and check again.

Paying up front
 

Yeah the honest answer is , "don't do it" I have made that mistake with a well publicised US school on this site.

At that price it seems likely that it is only one of two school, firstly i can imagine the deposit being for the manuals? possibly! but if not seems a little high.

If it is the school i am thinking of I did my groundschool there too, see if you can negotiate the payment structure with them, they did with me. Or alternatively if they cannot do that, take your business elsewhere , there are other very reputable schools about, now that everyone is into the JAA syllabus that have got most the general answers and requirements down to a tee.

There are plenty of schools that will do pay as you go now as well when you come to do the flying training.


:E

Thanks for the advice guys, I wasn't keen at all to hand over all the money up front. Now that I know that others haven't bargained I will certainly be doing the same-no matter how big the school, I am not trusting them with my cash!

There are schools that have a separate student fees account. The money is kept separate from the money used to run the FTO. That way they know that the money is available for them and you are safe because they can't get their hands on it if it looks as though they are going out of business.

Hope this helps

AP

....and when the school file bankruptcy, suddenly the students' money "kept" separatly goes in the pocket of the last guy closing the door (usually the manager)!

that way you are safe, the cops can not get the hand on it if it looks as though they are going to jail!

Hope this helps

H.

posted 22nd August 2003 20:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are schools that have a separate student fees account. The money is kept separate from the money used to run the FTO. That way they know that the money is available for them and you are safe because they can't get their hands on it if it looks as though they are going out of business.

Hope this helps

AP

Well it sounded like an scheme worth checking out to me. The school where I did my training did offer it but as I was only doing the flying training, I paid as I went.

Sounds like you've had a bad experience, Hulk

Not be, by chance!.Seen some students loosing up to 20'000$.
do not pay front large amount of money whatever the school says.

Also, security issues aside (important though they are), consider what might happen if you pay up front but then realise that you don't like the school. Puts you in a difficult position if you want to change.

It is difficult with groundschool but I can't see why they need you entire course fee up front. Negotiate a payment schedule or go elsewhere.

the "funniest" thing is we say constantly to not to pay up front, and every month there are some guys screwed by dishonest flight schools, TRTO,.... Schools use some technics like :10% discount, free housing for 6 months, we will hire you as a cfi if you pay...., we will find you a job,...

sad world
:ugh:

Speaking as someone who has lost the best part of 20 grand I whole heartedly agree with Clive Hughes and his book and never pay anything to any FTO that you cant afford to loose!!!!!!!!

The company I was training with, was a large school in Kent, it was CAA approved and NVQ approved, what could possibly could go wrong with such high levels of approval, with the oversight of two government branches, who both check the financial viability of the company!!!!!!

Please heed this advice, bitter personal experience proves if you don’t you will loose out.

Credit card payments do help this, but it is no guarantee.

At one time the FTO I work for was considering an escrow account. This is not as safe as you would think, as I know of a couple of pilots who did this for an apparent type rating on a HS125 for an Italian company, who was fictitious, they lost their money too!

My FTO certainly advocates pay as you go and the use of credit cards. It is beneficial for us as well as the students.


SO DO NOT PAY ANYTHING YOU CAN NOT AFFORD TO LOOSE, trust me!!!!!

Being someone who lost alot at a "reputable" school I would advise DO NOT DO IT.. Any school that wants payment up front as is not wishing to accept installments should be avoided.. saying that I did pay for my ATPL groundschool all in one go.. but that was at London Guildhall University.. and with my educational experience was sure that they would be in business for the following 8 months at least..

Be wary.. if you lose it you will NEVER get it back.

Spitty

I would be very careful about paying a certain main FTO in South West Spain any money up front. From what I´ve heard from some mates down there the place might not be open for very much longer.

I agree with most of the posts here - I managed to go through all my (JAA modular) training with reputable FTOs without ever paying more than a token deposit up front; that was actually one of my discriminating criteria whenever choosing an FTO. Always keep them on their toes - and make sure they work hard to get the next cheque...

Cheers

I have to say: I paid the £4,995 my Dad left me before he died up front for my flying training and have had no problems as of yet, but then again, there is the deal that if the school shuts down you can either have the money back or they will transfer your hours to the nearest flying school operating on the same branch...

I don't know whether any place you guys have come across does this, but I am quite content right now! :)

Can't stress enough.. JUST DON'T DO IT

if you do and you are unlucky enough to lose it.. then it could be the end to your career.

I lost it, didn't get it back, but helped out by the good guys out there in FL which meant i could keep my dream alive.

This is SIMPLE advice, please take it

Regards
Spitty

if a school shuts down, you will probably not see your money back. Your file can be transfered to an other school, but your money will be lost in the bankrupt!Schools try to run until no money left. The money kept on a separated account, is in fact not real money, but a number in a computer.The money you have paid upfront is spent to maintain the school.The money the school makes is put on your separated account.
so, if the school does not make money, you will have to leave with no money even if you have a separated account.

that is the way a business works!

Course money
 

1. Pay as you go unless you are dealing with a blue chip company.

2. Use your credit card [not charge card] to make payments.

3. Do not to talked into payments in advance for a substantial discount.

4. The training world is littered with failed FTOs where the customer has lost out big time.

5. Be firm, and decline their kind offer. Choose a FTO which has been recommended to you and is not a fly by nite outfit`.

Hi guys, I am re-opening this thread as I have not had much luck with the negotiations. I have paid my deposit of £1000, bearing in mind that this is for ground school, and the school in question want my remaining balance of £5228 before the course starts. This INCLUDES the CAA exam fees.

So I emailed them explaining my concerns and requesting a system whereby I could pay over time. They wrote back saying no. I am determined to pursue this as I can't believe that they need the exam fees upfront as well.

So I was basically wondering whether anyone has had any luck with this so that I can use it as a bit of a levering tool, not mentioning names of course! Just any details as to how they have negotiated the deal etc! Also, is there any legal footing I have to refuse payment upfront? I am reluctant to go elsewhere but I will if need be!

Thanks for the help,
sk

You've got some options, but I would want to know:

A) Was this made clear from the outset? If they told you about it, and have never hidden the fact from you, then what is the problem you have?

B) Was it in the contract you signed when you handed over the deposit?

If this has been sprung on you, then I would be suspicious, refuse to pay anymore, and ask for the money back. If you pay by a credit card, you can be protected from a school going bankrupt.

However, I would suggest you phone up the school and ask to speak to someone who is authorised to deal with this sort of query. The email you received might be from some young spotty oik who, first isn't authorised, and second, doesn't know what they are talking about.

If the school is reasonable, they will listen to your concerns, and come to a compromise. If not, then that tells you all you need to know. But, in my experience problems and issues are best sorted out by personal intervention, rather than emails. So, get your requests sorted out before you phone, know what you want, and be ready to offer a solution when you speak to whoever. They will probably listen.

Good Luck:ok:

I agree with Leigh Collins - The best bet is to pay any thing on a credit card - and don't be conned into paying extra commission for using it - If it is a good FTO they will happily take a credit card and still just charge you the advertised amount -

If not go somewhere else - there is plenty of competition out there

:cool:

I wouldnt worry so much about handing over the cash up front. When clive hughes referred to not doing so, he meant 50K for a Jaa Cpl/IR, not a PPL, I doubt you'd get to 'spread' the cost for a course thats only gonna last 4 weeks.
Anyway, surely you dont expect the flying school to let you start a PPL course without being paid for it first? thats like me driving off a forecourt in a brand new car and saying to the dealer " Hi, Ill pay you when i can" The dealer wont let you go anywhere unless he knows the cheque has cleared or he's gettting paid off the finance company in full the next day! same for all businesses and flight schools are no different!
You should count yourself lucky that SOME flying schools such as Bournemouth will even let you spread the cost in the first place, cause the Dont have to!
The best thing to do is research the best school, one theat has been esatablished for years, and then you know your money is safe!
PS. Those who have lost 20K etc with a flying school-serves you right for choosing a crap school and not doing your homework.
There are schools you could give £1million to up front and you know your moneys safe!!

bonjour

Actually, I paid for my PPL on account, and I settled at the end of each month. I always owed money to the school, and often took the liberty to extend even that generous credit time. My current club charges for the PPL when you get back into the club house after each lesson.

Paying up front
 

If you pay up front you are to stupid to be a pilot and I would not want you on my flightdeck !.

Brutal I know .......but look back over the years and see all the posts from the people who have lost money and if you cant see the writing on the wall then you deserve to get shafted.

A and C, I totally agree with you and believe me, I do not want to pay up front. But after contacting the school in question, who have already had my deposit of £1000, and asking if we could arrange paying by installments, they have said no. They even want the CAA examination fees paid upfront.

What I am saying is that I feel this is unreasonable, albeit it is only 5 more grand as some others say but this is 1/6 of my budget and I certainly don't want to lose it. The school say they are well established and will not go bust but who on earth knows this?

What i would love to know is has anyone else managed to get them to accept installments? I would love to tell them to pi$$ off and go elsewhere but the course will be starting soon and I don't really feel this is an option as I believe that they will be the best place for me to do my groundschool.

I haven't mentioned the name of the school but I think it could be pretty obvious!! What's more, my Barclaycard balance doesn't go up to £5000 so I can't even pay with that!!

So do I keep hasseling them for a result then?!!
sk

Simple. Pay £5000 minus (your current credit limit) into your barclaycard account and then your barclaycard will be in credit. Then use it to pay them. Warning, don't pay the whole £5000 into your barclaycard, pay as little as possible to ensure the payment goes through. You need part of the funding to be on (barclaycard) credit to get the protection.
Then pay the balance off with the remaining part of the £5k before the due date, and hey presto !, no credit charges.

Remember, experience is proportional to the amount of money you have lost. Don't learn the hard way.

Afterthought: Even simpler would be to ring Barclaycard and ask for your credit limit to be raised to £5000. However, don't tell them its to get the protection of the Consumer Credit Act.

I think the best advice is take your business elsewhere. However, assuming your deposit is non-refundable, you’re probably going to just lump it. The lesson for the future is, as has already been said, do not pay up front, but if you have no alternative do so by credit card.

It is unreasonable practice. The car analogy is not valid as a car is not delivered over a 6 month period. Obviously there is a potential risk to you, but extra cost even if your money is safe. They should go to a bank if they need working capital, not borrow from their customers.

There are lots of rumours about the 2 biggest flight schools being up for sale. If you are referring to one of these, it is even more worrying. However, as both are owned by big corporations I’d think it unlikely that their parent companies would let them go bust even if they failed to find buyers. They would just liquidate them if they were determined to exit the scene.

Hello, Well reading the fact that you sound very sceptical about handing over money then your bestbet is to ask for your deposit back, if you can get it, or just go and become a doctor or a lawyer instead? Its obvious you are too worried about your money! become an accountant!
Well, if you want to get your money back and go to another school, your gonna have the same dilemma all over again!

So what takes 6 months the sally? I thought you could do a PPL in 4 Weeks? Groundscholl and all? Are you referring to the flying school for "retards" ?

bonjour

Yes go on...your gonna say im a retard too for not being able to spell "groundschool"!

Yes i did a PPL at retard school too!

DOH!

It's not that i am too worried about my money Hustler, but read all of the responses above and they all say do not pay up front. So whilst it is only a comparibly small amountwhen looking at integrated courses, it is still enough to make me take heed. My point was that if the school do not let me pay in installments then how can anyone follow the above advice? Hustler said I am going to have the same dilemma at any school I go to so where is the alternative?

As Sally said, there are plenty of rumours about 2 well known schools up for sale and I think is another thing for anyone to consider. QNH 1013: Cheers, that is gonna have to be my next step methinks!
SK

The Hustler

This thread was opened by missnellpell aka sk4644. The question concerned a "residential groundschool" costing over £5,500. There was no mention of a PPL.

Now, I might be wrong, but I'd bet on that being a residential ATPL goundschool with xATS. That lasts a little over 6 months.

BTW, not all schools rip you off in this manner. Hindsight is great, but it is worth shopping around before paying the deposit. I've been able to avoid handing loads of cash over to schools in advance and managed to train with excellent schools so far

Yep, Sally is correct, that's the trouble when my boyfriend and I use the same computer!! Never look to see what I am signed in as!! I must say that I thought it wouldn't be a problem to pay in installments as I felt that this must be a regular request from most students. Was very wrong and at least I have learnt now! I was hoping to hear from others who had managed to negotiate with this school but I guess I am just gonna have to pay!
Cheers for the replies

There are ways and means of checking out (UK) companies before you give them money. Eg, www.companieshouse.gov.uk will give you free information on whether companies filed their last accounts properly (a good indicator as to whether they're experiencing financial difficulties) and information on whether their directors have ever been in trouble (try Terry Venables as an example). There are other agencies (perhaps someone else knows contact info?) who can perform further checks for a fee, although it will certainly be a lot less than you stand to lose.


Oh and BTW - don't pay up front!

Paying Up front
 

Am hoping to start the Integrated Course at Cabair this summer and have been offered two payment options. One option is to pay for the course upfront and benefit from a £2400 discount. I have heard that you should never pay up front in case the FTO goes into liquidation, but would like to know if its worth it if the cash is available?
Thanks for any help.
Onelife

Think about how much interest the money will earn if you put it in a high interest account and hold it back as late as possible.

Or, think about the interest u will pay if ur taking out a loan for the full amount of the course right at the start, rather than borrowing the money in stages.
It may well work out that you dont actually save anything by paying upfront, Cabairs accountants aren´t stupid!

If they go under and you lose your money, could you afford to pay again to train somewhere else?

No? Then don't pay up front.

Yes? Could you lend me some money please.