This is the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL
 

I posted this information in another thread but the whole thing was deleted. I don't know why it disappeared so I will post it again. This is by far the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL and hopefully it will stop the big schools in the UK stealing from people. £50,000 is an insane price to pay and it should be stopped.
Before I start I will just say that all those idiots who say standards are lower in the US are either trying to get you to enrol in their school or they are trying to justify the sickening amount of money they have spent. I used to instruct in Los Angeles and I have also flown a lot in the UK and can say that the standard of flying is the same. I would even be tempted to say that those who have flown in the US are better all around pilots because they have dealt with and been into very busy airspace on a daily basis. It is also far more interesting in the states, where in the UK would you ever get the chance to squeeze under the wingtip of a Virgin 747 in a PA-28 so you can depart first to avoid having to wait for wake turbulence to dissipate, nowhere is the answer to that.

Here is the cheapest route to get a JAA ATPL in easy steps.

(1) Go and get an FAA PPL US$ 3600

(2) Build time US$ 5000

(3) Get a FAA IR US$ 3700

(4) Get an FAA CPL US$ 1300

(5) Add multi IR to FAA CPL US$ 1800

Total us costs in GBP at current exchange rate: £8325

You will need to do the JAA ATPL writtens at some point so I would suggest converting the FAA PPL to JAA ASAP and then you can enrol in a distance-learning course. The conversion I think consists of some written exams and check ride, I have not looked into it as have not needed to do it but would be very very surprised if it cost more than GBP 500.

(6) Enrol with an ATPL distance-learning course GBP 1100

(7) Convert the FAA IR to JAA GBP 3500

(8) Convert the FAA CPL to JAA GBP 1000

(9) Do an MCC course GBP 1500

That has cost about 15500 pounds. THAT IS CORRECT GBP 15500.
Nowhere near £50,000. Is the name of where you trained worth that much? Going by the number of unemployed ex student of the big schools in the UK the answer is obviously no. If you do not believe this I am happy to give you details of the schools offering these courses at those prices. The only one I am not sure of is the conversion of a FAA PPL as have not had to do it. Paying £50,000 to become a very inexperienced person in a field that is very hard to get into is, as far as I can tell, insane. Just think, the money you save could get you a 737 and A300 type rating. I am against that sort of thing but surely you lot who say the name of the school means a lot can't deny that a holder of a frozen ATPL, with those type ratings, would stand a far better chance than a fresh graduate from one of the rip off UK schools. Just had a look at a leading UK school and their course is £56,500, absolute madness. I will be interested to see if this post also gets deleted like the last one.
:ok:

Quote:
(6) Enrol with an ATPL distance-learning course GBP 1100
(7) Convert the FAA IR to JAA GBP 3500
(8) Convert the FAA CPL to JAA GBP 1000
(9) Do an MCC course GBP 1500

in all my experience i have yet to find anyone who has converted an ICAO IR to a JAR IR for 3500. The test fee is 640quid, the ac hire about another 800quid and that is just for the test, let alone the required training before sitting the IR. (please remember to get a CPL/IR in the UK it must be a multi engine if you intend to join a flight crew of ME aircraft (SE commercial operations are not allowed at night here)

Also not to be sceptical but where is a distance learning course for 1100,(there are 14 exams at almost 70quid an exam plus travel to and from a test centre, a CPL for 1000 (again the test fee is 600quid + ac hire etc..approaches and landings) and an MCC course for 1500 WHERE ??

also i think you have forgotten to add accommodation and living expenses on to all of this, which is likely to take over a year (the ATPLs can take upto 1 year), plus living costs for the residentials at the school in question for the compulsery brush up courses, plus travel, plus for the IR in uk airspace, approach fees, landing fees etc etc (as an example an approach and landing for the test centre at bournemouth is approx 67quid, then do the same again for your test and an approach else where... eeeeks..ouch)

I genuinely think that your estimate of 15,000 is quite untrue and if you add up the cost of everything including even travel to and from the US it will surprise you.

I would be interested to see where you get your calculations for the conversions from, would they be certain US school bidding fr your hard earned cash.

also to any estimate, especially at professional level you need to realistically add one third again.

BUT i do stand to be corrected as always

Goodluck TR

Answers to your questions.

1. I received this email from sothend flying club for the IR conversion.

"""Sorry for the delay in replying.. CAA requirements are 10 HRS in multi
aircraft and 5HRS in sim plus check ride.
Course cost is #3725.00 plus fee to CAA of #637.00 and hire of aircraft
for check ride at #265.00/hr . The course fee includes landings and
instructor but for the check ride (quoted at solo rates) landing fees are extra."""

At some schools you can do 10 hours in the sim and 5 in the aircraft. Southends sim is not approved. That would bring the price down to below £3500 but I said £3500 to be safe. I know CAA fees are not included but the big integrated schools dont include them either!

2. JAA ATPL distance learning course.

http://nacgroundschool.com/dlcourse.htm

take a look US$ 1870 about GBP 1000. Does that answer your question about where you can do a course for that price. The big UK schools do not include exam fees either! That price includes the refresher if done in FL.

3. The MCC course for £1500. I will have to ask a guy at work where he did it as he told me about that price. Once I find out I will post it. I found one for £2300 http://www.multiflight.com/training/mcc.html

4. The CPL conversion, the CAA leaves it up to the school to decide how much training you need, I was quoted around £1000, again the big UK schools dont include CAA fees!

5. Living expenses, sorry I forgot it was free to live in England? The cost of living in the US is far cheaper than in the UK. I shared an apartment 5 mins from the airport, swimming pool, gym etc for US$200 a month. Food is also far cheaper. To get all the FAA ratings all the way to Comm IR multi takes about 4 months if you are really committed. You can also start studying for the JAA ATPL exams whilst there. You then return to the UK and get a job whilst finishing the distance course.

6. Lets assume it costs an extra £1000 pounds per check ride, in the US it is no where near that price (£400) but lets just say that for arguments sake. Thats £6000 so the total cost would go up to about £21,000 but remember most UK schools dont include those fees either. So you still have a saving of over £30,000. I am not trying to sell anything, I do not work for a school, I have nothing to gain from posting this. I just want people to be able to make an informed decision before paying over £50,000 to be in a position to apply for jobs that are very hard to get.

The savings are huge and you end up with the same license.

Travel costs to the us are not that much $400 return. It is cheaper to fly to Florida do 3 hours in a twin stay overnight in a hotel and fly back rather than do 3 hours in a twin in the UK.

Just thought I should add that in the US, you do not pay landing fees or approach fees or any other fee to use airfields. You can do approaches at international airports without having to pay a penny or phone them in advance. You would only be subject to that whilst doing the two conversions in the UK.

You would not have to convert your FAA PPL into a JAA one as they are both ICAO and hence you can do the ATPL exams on the strength of that.

Also if you have the JAA ATPL exams in the bag first it exempts you from sitting some of the CPL/IR ground exams.

I think you're mistaken about the cost of the conversion certainly as far as the flying tests go. I asked Bristol Flight Centre and Multiflight some months ago for the average conversion costs, they both reckon about £9K. Discussion here .

I notice you haven't actually done this for the costs you quote, your statement would carry a bit more weight if you had.

I can concur with Alex. As a person dealing with people converting from FAA to JAA on a daily basis and seeing about 20-30 already complete this conversion this in 2005 I speak with some experience.

You costs are way off ! Be a lot more realistic with those prices, they are too low, and like I tell all people wishing to learn to fly its extremely rare for a person to make it through a course in minimum hours. I have seen FAA to JAA IR conversions take 40 hrs for a low time FAA pilot, which you will be if you follow your plan of attack.

Remember too, as part of a DL ATPL course there are mandatory pre exam prep courses that must be attended, so these need to be factored in, as well as accom and food costs during your times at the exam center ( unless of course you live beside one!) .

Have a better search through PPrune, and contact a couple more flight schools about the conversion, try and talk to schools who have actually put students through the conversion, or better off come and see us all at the Flight Training Show on March 19 at Heathrow!

Chris

The prices I have quoted were quoted to me from schools in the UK. Are they lying?
You are right, I have not done the conversion and hope I never have to but I did not make these prices up. I currently fly PIC in a twin turboprop on an N reg in the UK and hope to find an international job that doesn’t require JAA licenses, the search will begin in a few months. I found out the information in case I have no option other than the conversion. I know it would be hard for a low time pilot to complete in minimum hours but how many people fail their IR on an integrated course, is the retraining included? It is not for everyone and some parts would not be for me such as the distance learning, I would prefer to pay a bit extra and do a residential course, probably at Bristol or Cranfield. I am not trying to deceive people here I am just stating the facts. This IS the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL and it is possible. Even if you didn't do it in minimum hours you would have to be pretty crap to eat up even half of the money you saved, if you did you should probably look for another career. I am just providing information for people who are thinking of starting out as there are lots of people eager to get their hands on the mountains of money involved and who would not tell them every option. I however have nothing to gain

I just had to add this as it is so crazy.

"Even if you ate up half of the money you saved". Half the money is 15,000 pounds. Insane it is 15,000 pounds. Two and a half years rent where I live. A very nice second hand Porche. A cessna 152. 120 hours in a twin in the states!!!! It is a stupid ammount of money and that is only HALF of what you could save.

No mater what argument you use it would not change the fact that this is by far the cheapest way to get the license. Landing fees/ test fees/ accommodation/ flights to the US etc. It dosent matter you would still be saving a huge ammount of money. Also many of those costs are not included in the UK prices anyway so you would have to add them onto the £50,000 if you went integrated.

Paying 50k may be insane. Paying £35k is a bit more realistic. And your job prospects will also be more realistic. Can't imagine your chances will be good having only flown 10 hours in the UK. Also these are quoted minima. If you stripped a UK quote of Test fees, hire for test etc I'm sure it would look more like £28k. Plus you don't get treated like a criminal for trying to contribute to our economy - TSA rule!!!

What an idiotic, narrow minded thread this started as - I thought all the idiots had left prune, obviously not!

I geuss you work for a UK school and that is why you have a problem with this thread. As for the TSA rule, yes it is stupid, but why be patriotic about it as all you get in the UK is very badly ripped off by the schools and CAA. This is just information, I am not trying to sell anything. Obviously anyone who is planning to do it this way will do their own research and find out for themselves how much thay can save. I didn't find it too hard finding a job in the UK having never flown here.

As I said before the test fees in the US are less than £400. The two you have to do in the UK are say £2000 for arguments sake. The fees for the ATPL will eat up another couple of thousand at most. THERE ARE NO LANDING FEES OR APPROACH FEES IN THE US so that would not add to the cost.

You CAN save a huge ammount of money. I don\'t understand how people can argue about that.

hmmmm, i think you might find the 1500 course is offered by multiflight to students who undertake all their CPL/IR training with them., cheapest MCC course in the UK is 2000, plus of course living costs for the duration
would be interested to find out where your guy at work did it for 1500

yet then you say the actual figure is
at least 3725 + the extras as copied from an email below
so how could it be 3500, i suggest ALL the other figures are wrong as they have come from a school bidding for your business and you would have to seriously sit down and work it out and i am afraid you would surprise yourself over how INACCURATE they are

I hope you do not think i am being annoying, but just do not want you to get the wrong idea, to get a JAR ATPL will cost you alot more than 15k, I PROMISE

erm no, just being economical and misleading with the truth.

As I said in an previous post. The quote for the IR conversion was with 10 hours in an aircraft as southends sim is not approved to do more than 5 hours. The actual minimums are 10 in sim and 5 in aircraft. I did not look into other schools as I was just trying to get a rough idea incase I need to convert. I assumed I could find it cheaper if 10 hours could be done in a sim.

I got to FAA Multi CPL IR for about US$13,000 it was a couple of years ago so rates have gone up a bit but not by much. Lets say it costs £10,000 to convert, have I not still saved alot of money? I don't understand why so many people seem to be trying to find holes in this. I am just trying to help people who are thinking of starting. Obviously they will do their own research on the matter.

Just out of interest what is the cheapest integrated ATPL course in the UK that includes ALL required fees and an MCC course.
Also do they provide accommodation and food in that price?

It would be interesting to know how many people who have replied are either conected in some way to a UK school or who did the integrated course and are having trouble finding a job.

This post was just intended to give people who want to be a pilot an obviously cheaper option to look into.

Silverknapper wrote:

What an idiotic, narrow minded thread this started as - I thought all the idiots had left prune, obviously not!

It is narrow minded to say something like that don't you think. Why not look at other options or are you that narrow minded. It is idiotioc to think people will not research it for themselves and they will find it is cheaper if they do.

interesting post moochooser-

i have to say at times i have looked at the prices for training and have been amazed at the wide ranging prices for different training(CPL, IR etc)..
When it comes to getting value for money, i am the first person to try and sniff out a bargain and believe me when it comes to flying i have tried my best to do the same.

I am almost on the brink of finishing my ATPLs and have been looking into CPL/IR costs and am trying to figure out the cheapest way to do, while at the same time not selling myself short by choosing price over quality.
I see what u are saying that there are cheaper options out there and people should look into them before paying over the odds for what boils down to the same thing.

The one thing I think about ur figures-
mmmm they may be the prices u have been quoted by a school, but at the end of the day, these are based on minimums and by all accounts (I have spoken to a lot of people who have done conversions and people here have already stated this) things like FAA conversions generally take a lot longer than the minimums.
You also have not factored in exam fees for the conversion or a/c hire.
I am not criticising what you have said or anything like that, but i find that when a school is signifigantly cheaper than another, there is usually a catch.
The other thing is-
if you get a bunch of schools scattered around the world giving u good quotes like what u r stating,at times it is not worth hopping between cities for cheap training when ur overheads (flts etc) start to push ur outgoings up.

can i ask u-
where did u get the quote for a FAA CPL for $1300 and the ME/IR add on for $1800?

People keep saying "don't forget food and living costs", it doesn't matter if your house in the UK is right next door to your flight school and you can walk to it, you will still have food and a mortgage/rent to pay for. Unless of course you still live at home with the olds.

All FAA prices are from a school called Air Desert Pacific in Los Angeles. Their prices are not as good as they used to be so you could probably find it cheaper somewhere else. It is a cheap and cherfull place to learn. Planes are not as bad as some might say.

please do not get me wrong i am not trying to make a mockery of your post, however the prices you originally quoted were not correct and indeed you have now corrected most of them by saying they were old, or from a friend, or based on a school in the uk doing it on sim.. etc..

one of the most soul destroying facts in aviation is that someone cannot start their dream to become an airline pilot purely due to the lack of money or ability to get it. They may be the most able pilot(s) in the world.

I just thought your post

This is the cheapest way to get a JAA ATPL

would give false hope to some of these people who might set off down this road and perhaps get half way through the IR and run out of money as it has cost alot more than they thought. Indeed MY IR has now cost 18,000 so far.

welld one on taking the time to put all this together, however i do think if you take into account travel, living costs,food,conversions,tests,even the licence fee from the CAA is rediculous just to print out your CPL, you are realistically looking at ATLEAST 30K for a fATPL.

goodluck

Which price did I say was old? The only one I said was from a friend was £500 less than what I found after looking for one minuite. Why do people keep going on about living costs? You have to live in England also.
I don't think anyone would go down this road without researching it for themselves. There is no way that this route would cost £30,000. Do UK schools include all the fees?

Having completed my training in the US up to CPL ME/IR, I have been interested to see the amount of scepticism with which this thread is being viewed.


I completed my FAA training on a budget of £13000.

That included all fees, living and travel expenses....Oh yeah, and a Suzuki TL1000R to play on for the time I was there.
After I completed my training, and a not too lengthy search, I landed myself a job in a C182. (Unpaid of course ;) )
I returned to England a little over £10000 poorer, but with 750 hours under my belt. I sold the bike for a little more than I bought it for.


Since my return at the end of last year, I have been looking into conversion. (although not very actively), This is what Ive been quoted for the entire conversion:

JAA ATPL Theoretical Training. 25 weeks £ 4,245.00

CAA Examinations 14 £55.00 each £ 770.00

Training as required to pass CPL skills test Approx 5 hours £234.00 / hr £ 1,170.00

CPL Skills Test Direct to CAA £ 637.00

Aircraft hire for test Approx 2 hours £177.00 / hr £ 354.00

MEPL skills test In house examiner £ 125.00

Aircraft hire for test Approx 1.2 hours £260.00 / hr £ 312.00

Minimum of 15 hours IR training 5 hrs BE76 £343.00 / hr £ 1,715.00
10 hrs FNPT 2 £145.00 / hr £ 1,450.00

IR Flight test Direct to CAA £ 637.00

Aircraft hire for test Approx 2 hours £260.00 / hr £ 520.00

TOTAL £11,935.00



I know I could save a lot by doing a distance course, but this is just the way the quote came.

Now, before anyone starts repeating themselves about how no one ever passes in the minimum time, let me just point a couple of things out.

I chose to take the FAA Instrument rating in a Seneca and had absolutely no trouble whatsoever. If you can pass the FAA ME/IR, why not the JAA?
Forget about the minimum training, I could pass the test Today. Unless of course Im overlooking a fundamental reason why Flying on instruments is harder in the UK.

The key is not to waste youre hour building time in the states. Use it to practice approaches instead of just pounding it out on monotonous cross country flights.

So, I'm not going to assume that anyone will go out of their way to find a job in the states after their training and just add up the costs.

Go to the states and return 6 months later with FAA CPL ME/IR and 250hours....£11000

Convert to JAA without needing extra training (And why the hell would you?).......£11935

So, we're looking at £23000 without the discount for a distance learning course.

Ive known that I wanted to be a pilot for as long as I can remember. Ive known that I wouldnt be learning to do that in the UK since I first saw the price of training here.
It is disgustingly over priced and is a barrier between those of us with shallow pockets and our dreams of a life in aviation. It almost seems as if its set up to keep the riff raff out of the skies or something.

In America, If you want to fly you can. A person of average means can even fly for PLEASURE!!! For Pleasure for gods sake. Imagine being able to hire an aircraft and fly over to france for the weekend without spending 2 weeks salary. In the US you can do it for 2 days salary! (not france of course, but a similar journey.)

The sooner people realise that their goals can be accomplished without having to pay these amounts the better.
Who knows, maybe we'll see a drop in the cost of flight training in the UK.

www.universalairacademy.com has aircraft for $50 wet.

whats that, just under £30?

This thread is as far as I know, very appropriately titled.

This IS the cheapest way to do it.
Im sorry to hear that its cost you so much, If only this thread had come about sooner.

Does the FAA IR include NDB holding and tracking nowadays?

NDB Intercepting and tracking is part of the FAA practical test standards.

I dont think holding at an NDB is part of the check ride (I may be wrong, but I didnt do it), but if you know youll be doing it in britain, you can practice it in the states whilst time is cheap.

Any way you look at it, if you plan your training carefully, theres no reason why 15 hours extra won't be more than enough to prepare you for the JAA test.

I used to teach it to my students and I was taught it by my instructor so the answer is yes. Once you understand it it is not very hard. If you find it hard practice for twenty hours or so whilst building time.

Great thread guys, you're helping us wannabees making an informed choice about the different routes to the atpl. What do think about this route:
Jaa ppl in florida or cali
hour builing usa
distance learning atpl theory
--> find a job and save as hell

Cpl/ir/me in spain, for example at aerofan
Mcc at Ctc or somewhere cheap

My other choice is getting all the faa ratings and doing the conversion route. I could stay with a friend in the usa in the surrounding of trenton, NJ. I know Atp airline transport proffesionals is not too far from the place I could stay. I have about 10000 euros now available for training and I'm in the final fase of my master in business administration. During the coming months I will make a choice about the route I'm going to take.

I don't work for any school anywhere.
You seem to have ignored my point that a school here can put together a quote like yours for £28k. These are bare bones quotes based on minimum hours.
You say you have a job - but on an N reg so I don't think that counts. Try going to a UK carrier with min hours and only having spent five or ten hours in UK airspace. See how far you go.
If Seaweed thinks he will pass a uk IRT now, without further training then go ahead, ask a school for a 170A to test standard.

This really must be a wind up. I speak to mates a lot who have gone abroad. A lot say they didn't save a bean. And as for all this coming from a brand new poster - hmmm.

1) Always add in opportunity cost of lost earnings in addition to all living costs, otherwise it is not true cost to you at all.

2) Why on earth does anyone think that cheapest and quickest is best for gaining the essentials to gain the licence - only to join a large pool of people in a similar position with similar hours?

No one has answered my question.

What is the cheapest integrated course in the UK?
Does that include exam fees etc?
Does that include accommodation and food?

Oh of course how stupid of me I forgott my job dosen't coun't as it is not a real plane. I assume you did the integrated course in the UK. What are you doing flying related now?

I think you should re-read this thread.
The quote I was given includes test fees, if its test fees that you consider to be the meat on the bones. Is that what youre talking about?

As for the minimums, tell me why you feel an FAA instrument rated pilot would require more than 15 additional hours of training to pass another IR.

Why?

I notice that you are the same guy who resorted to name calling on the last page. Youre obviously a very angry and bitter person. I can only assume that your bitterness is a result of your having been raped by a UK school yourself.
You've spent a lot of money, made a lot of mistakes and are now feeling stupid about not having researched things a little better.


What on earth are you talking about?

Your entire post is rediculous.

Don't come the smart arse. Are you saying those costs are for a integrated course in the states? Of course not. Integrated has no relevance here. Compare it with a modular course not integrated.
I haven't been 'raped' as you so eloquently put it. I am exceptionally happy with my training choices. But have seen many people burned by going down these routes that are too good to be true.
Seaweed you said you could pass a UK IRT now. Well go and do it them come back and say you are right. None of you has a UK IR. Once you have then maybe your comments will have some credibility.

I intend to do just that, but thanks for the advice anyway.
The test will be the easy part. Financing it is another matter.

Now, i'll ask you again. I'll type it in bold to make sure you see it.

Why would an FAA IR rated pilot have difficulty passing a JAA IR test? Especially after the minimum 15 hours extra training that is required.

Do you have an FAA IR?

I fail to see how any of the statements I have made are lacking credibility. Do you think i'm lying about something? Does youre entire arguement hinge on the fact that you dont think the FAA IR is as good as a JAA one?

If not, please explain exactly what it is you are having a hard time with here and I will attempt to explain or clarify as need be.

Er, handbags anyone?

Whilst it may well be cheaper, in some cases, to follow the route that Moochooser first advocated, it should be borne in mind that the figures listed are based upon the cheapest quotes of various marketing departments and "my mate told me" estimates, neither of which are particularly reliable. They also assume that the average person will be able to pass everything first time in the minimum possible hours. For these reasons, the figures should be treated with extreme caution. It should also be noted that, as silverknapper pointed out, the original post did not compare like with like - the figure of £56,500 did not relate to a minimum cost modular course in the UK, which can be had for well under £30,000.

Also conveniently ignored is the attitude of JAA airline recruiters to pilots with only 10 hours (or less) experience in JAA airspace. In his original post, Moochooser stated "....you lot who say the name of the school means a lot can't deny that a holder of a frozen ATPL, with those type ratings, would stand a far better chance than a fresh graduate from one of the rip off UK schools". I have to say that most JAA airlines would favour the fresh graduate (who they would, in any case, bond for the appropriate type rating) over the holder of a MPA type rating but little relevant experience.

Before assuming that conversion may be achieved in the minimum time, having taken the cheapest options towards FAA qualifications, it might be worth taking a look at the FAA Practical Test Standards and comparing them with the CAA's Standards Document 1.

As Alex suggested, and contrary to Seaweed Knees' assertion, NDB tracking is not a mandatory part of the FAA instrument rating, the PTS lists the minimum radio navigation equipment as that necessary "for the performance of two of the following nonprecision approaches: VOR, NDB, GPS, LOC, LDA, SDF, or RNAV and one precision approach: ILS, GLS, or MLS." There is, therefore, no requirement for the aircraft to be fitted with an ADF receiver or, indeed, for any tracking using a RMI. On the other hand, single-needle tracking both to and from a beacon, as well as single-needle holding procedures, are usually required in a CAA IR Skill Test.

A comparison of test tolerances reveals the following differences, among others:

Departure/Cruise:
FAA - Maintains the applicable airspeed within +/-10 knots; headings within +/-10°; altitude within +/-100 feet; and tracks a course, radial or bearing within ¾ scale deflection of the CDI.
CAA - Take-off/Vr: +5kts/-0kts, Climb: +/-5kts, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°

Holding:
FAA - Maintains the airspeed within +/-10 knots; altitude within +/-100 feet; headings within +/-10°; and tracks a selected course, radial or bearing within ¾ scale deflection of the CDI.
CAA - Speed: +/-5kts, Altitude: +/-100ft, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°

Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems
FAA - Maintains the airspeed within +/-10 knots, altitude within +/-100 feet, and selected headings within +/-5°. Applies proper correction to maintain a course, allowing no more than three-quarter-scale deflection of the CDI or within +/-10° in case of an RMI.
CAA - Speed: +/-5kts, Altitude: +/-100ft, Heading: +/-5°, Tracking +/-5°

Non-precision Approach
FAA - Allows, while on the final approach segment, no more than a three-quarter-scale deflection of the CDI or within 10° in case of an RMI, and maintains airspeed within +/-10 knots of that desired. Maintains the MDA, when reached, within +100 feet, -0 feet to the MAP
CAA - Tracking: +/-5°, Speed: +/-5kts, MDA: +50ft/-0ft

It would appear that the answer to Seaweed Knees' question "Why would an FAA IR rated pilot have difficulty passing a JAA IR test? Especially after the minimum 15 hours extra training that is required" is that, as well as a normal requirement for single-needle NDB tracking, which a FAA rated pilot may never have experienced, almost all of the CAA tolerances are half those of the FAA requirements.
Silverknapper is quite correct in asserting that these posts would have a great deal more credibility if written by someone who had successfully completed the conversion in minimum time having gained FAA qualifications at minimum cost. It may be possible but I, for one, have never heard of it happening.
And, before the allegations start flying, I do hold both JAA and FAA instrument ratings but have no connection whatever with any JAA FTO.

Tolerances and NDB procedures are of course something that a candidate planning to convert in this manner would be able to prepare for.

If your aim is to hold a JAA IR, you are obviously going to follow the CAA's standards throuought your training.
That goes without saying.

An exceptionally detailed and informative post Billiebob. Well done on bringing it to the debate!
Once again Seaweed chhoses to ignore the fact that he will be applying for a UK job having flown in the UK for a total of 10 hours.

If it so hard to pass the UK tests I assume lots of people fail even if they did the training in the UK. Do the UK schools take this into account and include retests and the required retraining in their price? Or would it be likely that the price quoted would be even higher than it is because it is so hard to pass with minimum hours?

And once again you choose not to reveal why you believe it is not possible to convert an FAA IR without going over the 15 hours.

Your posts are pointless, why are you bothering to write anything at all?

As far as getting a job with low "UK" hours goes. I dont see the problem.
Ive come accross many instructors who did almost all of their training bar the Instructor stuff at JAR schools in the US before getting hired in the UK.
What about jump pilots? I doubt the CCI at any DZ here would care about where the flight time was logged. In my opinion, US airspace is far more challenging than British airspace anyway.
There are numerous ways of building up time.

After a full conversion, the minimum UK airspace flight time will come to about 17 hours.

As for me, I have already been offered a job flying here in the UK.

An old flying proverb say ''Buy cheap, buy twice''.

Good Luck

hey, thats very similar to my plan, but ive worked it out, ihn all, with airfares and what have you, its going to cost 25k at least

I think moochooser did a fine job in posting here about what he thinks might be a good alternative to a very expensive integrated course. However, I also got the feeling that the figures he quoted are only the very minimum and a potential candidate planning on choosing this route should be aware of that. On the other hand, I think the prices a FTO like OAT quotes are only the minimum figures too.

The fact that he and Seaweed Knees were attacked so fiercely proofs that he/they opened up a discussion on a very sensitive topic, which made some fear about their business...

Anyway, I just wanted to raise a question in between all this fighting. We've talked quite a bit about FAA flying but what about JAA training in the US? Why are so many people going to train in the US under JAA regulations if it is so bad? They're training in the same airpace, practicing approaches on the same airports? Is it to be considered as erroneous as an FAA training is?

To wrap my post up, I think the hours built, even under FAA regulations, won't hurt anybody. Plus, they are the required hours airlines are asking for so I don't see anything that can be disadvantageous in having PICs flown under FAA regulations.

As I'm a greenhorn myself and still looking for the right way for getting my training I stand to be corrected.

It is entirely possible to complete a JAA CPL/IR (frozen ATPL) for less cost than is commonly quoted for the major integrated schools. As WWW has posted many times, it can be done entirely in the UK for around GBP 35,000. With selective use of FAA schools and careful budgeting, and bearing in mind the current exchange rates, I am quite prepared to believe that the whole process could be completed for between GBP 25,000 and 30,000. It is theoretically possible to construct a route for far less, as moochooser has tried to demonstrate, but it would be a very unwise wannabe who bet his future on those figures! I would suggest that, even going via moochoosers route, you budget at least $50,000. This would allow for errors, exchange rate variations, and any slip-ups on the JAA conversion. If you have some left at the end, lucky you!

As for the chances of getting a UK-based job, there is no intrinsic reason why a wannabe who has taken this route would be unsuitable for employment by a CAA/JAA airline. Of the hundreds of pilots I work with at Virgin, several completed all, or the majority, of their training in the USA - admittedly some years ago. In many parts of the world the FAA ATPL is the preferred qualification. Most intelligent employers would not mark down an individual for going this route, so long as all the required conversion tests were completed to a high standard. Some employers do show a preference for particular schools, which can be an obstacle, but as far as I can tell, no employer limits his intake entirely to the output of one single training establishment.

This is a worthwhile conversation; it is not improved by bad-tempered name-calling. Tackle the arguments, not the man.

Scroggs

Interesting discussion.

What I've always wondered about is, why, if UK carriers are so insistant that their self-funded applicants have trained in the UK; in the majority of cases when these carriers have an integrated sponsored cadat scheme, invariably all the training is carried out outside the UK, in Florida, Spain, New Zealand, Arizona etc etc

Scroggs has hit the nail on the head.
Moo has sparked such a reaction because he has come here stating that a person can achieve a JAA CPL/IR for £16000. This is rubbish. Moo hasn't brought any great revelation to the forum, people have been doing this for years. And were you to ask any of them if it cost them under £16000 I bet not one would say yes. Also if it was that easy why are schools here still in business? It is irresponsible to get peoples hopes up, or indeed to send them training having only budgeted for £16k. Indeed it is ludicrous. He then throws accusations around about people who disagree with him having ulterior motives. I would suggest that he may be the one with an ulterior motive. I am always suspicious of people posting aggressively when they have only been on prune a week or two. Perhaps business in the US is slow?
I would humbly disagree with Scroggs on the point of getting that first job. I have attended several interviews in the last 4 months, and the one thing which was always picked up on when going over my log book was that I had trained for my CPL/IR in the UK, indeed one said outright they only take people who have. This may be the opinion of one or two dinosaurs, but at the end of the day it is they who are doing the recruiting. Luckily I did get a job, at the airfield I did my hour building from. And I apportion this in no small part to being able to talk enthusiastically about the area. It is a tough job market at the moment, and anything which makes you more marketable has to be worth it. And the attitude is still very prevalent - 'train where you want to work'. However I agree entirely that once that first job is gained it doesn't matter a damn from that point on.

Carb, to venture an answer to your question, I would guess it is because the company can guarantee the quality of training, and indeed decide the syllabus which it's students will follow to an extent.

Fingers sore now - go easy on me!