After reading the posts. Dont believe half of what you hear!

This is my advice I am taking from an experienced base captain!

Jinkster,

Exactly which half are you refering to?

--
HaM

Apologies, in my opinion I think that - people are entitled to their own views but it wouldnt take much to say I am a Concorde captain or even the MD of Piper or'jack' the lad!!

When reading this I think you need to weigh up the facts - what do you hear - reading this thread it would easily put many people off! which could be the point of writing.

Hmmm......make up your own minds!

It is not our intention to put people off, but it is our intention to make people think carefully about what it is they are trying to get into.

The fact is that just because an airliner is bigger and faster than a PA28 it does not make the flying experience better. Modern airliners are simply an expensive office that happens to be airborne; flying them is a management and monitoring task, not a manual skill. Like all areas of commerciality, the jobs of those involved in airlines are continually pressured by financial realities, and it is these things which detract from what you might imagine to be the 'pleasure' of flying at this level.

As jobs go, this is a good one. But the reality is quite a way from the hopes expressed by many wannabes, and many of you still don't understand that it's not the aeroplane that makes an employer worthwhile; it's the lifestyle the employer offers.

As for you, Jinkster, if you're trying to imply that Pprune Towers, WWW, and Scroggs are not experienced professional pilots, you are quite wrong. WWW's and my histories are available here on Pprune Wannabes if you search; PPrune Towers is one of the original founders of this site. I have no reason to believe that Deathcruzer isn't what he claims to be; the experiences he posts about are very recognisable to me, although my employer is somewhat more agreeable than his!

To all of you; read this topic thoroughly. It will arm you for the realities to come. If it does discourage you, then think carefully whether airline flying is the correct direction for you to follow. If you read this, understand it and still feel that airline flying is for you, good - we've done our job, and you won't be disillusioned when you finally get in your B737 or A320. You'll be able to enjoy the good bits while not being surprised by the tedious trivia - which, it must be said, afflict almost every profession.

Scroggs

Scroggs, I didnt actually refer to anyone by name - I
was just stating the fact it would be easy to make things up.

Obviously there are genuine people around - such as yourself and others mentioned!


I was just writing a cautionary post! No harm taken - hopefully

Jinkster

Jinx,

Next time you're chatting to your favourite Base Captain ask him or her for a totally honest opinion on the knowledge of wannabees regarding the realities of the job and their comments on the main forums. The ones along the lines of, 'I'll fly for free,' or 'so what if they've chopped your terms and conditions - there's a queue of us waiting to take your jobs so stop your moaning and get on with it.'

Come to think of it, why don't you all ask your wonderful airline contacts why they can't be arsed to come here and spend time with you?

Do you think paragraph one and paragraph two could in some way be connected??

I was a little suprised by the post from Jinks, registered a long time and a huge number of posts yet somehow we almost seem strangers to him. I realised then that a huge proportion of his time is spent on Jetblast. Have you noticed that it is another forum essentially ignored by the pro pilots?? The vast majority of its regulars and 'characters' seem to love being associated with professional aviation but have no actual connection with or genuine knowledge of it at all.

Without Scroggs, the Welshman and the additional occassional visitors thumping you with the truth this place would be the same cliquey, up it's own arse, fantasy world wallowing in its own spiral of misconceptions, half truths and wish fulfillment. On the FTO and Lasors side of things we're especially indebted to the concise, factual slaps in the faces from folks like BillieBob and a few others who will never let dodgy marketing or claims go unanswered. They are protecting your money - you have free will and can still go ahead but as I said the other day wannabees don't have the excuse of not knowing any more.

If a thread like this seems a bit of an unpleasant ice water shock you simply aren't getting around the site enough. Is there really anything in it that doesn't relect an average single day of comments on the Rumours and News or Terms and Endearments forums?? Here's one today from a well respected regular:

I'd suggest that if you want warm, fuzzy and fawning while shelling out tens of thousands of pounds go buy a rug at Harrods. We'll continue to tell it how it is.

Flying a jet is great but, as Scroggs brilliantly points out, which one is a hundred times less important than the company, it's attitude towards you, and the quality of life you get. Outstations versus main bases are probably the most important issues in short haul/low cost quality of life - never been mentioned here but absolutely vital. Also, I've don't ever remember any discussion of these forums regarding Sops. Your dream aircraft remains precisely that if your company insists on you having the autopilot permanently on while your mate flying a supposedly much less sexy beast is with a company that really lets you fly.

So, if you do meet airline people who've been flying for several years please ignore the obvious questions and ask them who and where the happiest pro pilots are that they know. That's groups of pilots not one cheerful individual. Knowledge like that is gold dust when you are targeting applications.

Thoughtfully yours.
Rob Lloyd

Ah ok errm. Sorry got the wrong end of the stick - I am 21 and was just really a little :mad: off about reading 'is it all worth it' having spent a huge some of money but hey ho! 'cant take a joke shouldn't have joined'

:rolleyes:

I got a call from a former colleague this morning. She used to fly Sheds at night carting freight every where too. She thought she'd got a really good job flying CRJ's. She and every one has been made redundant at that company Duo.. Her quote "it really is a !!!!ty industry isn't it?"
I hope I am wrong but unless you have 737/A319 time you have to go onto easyJet's TRSS programme at £23K. You might think, fair enough. However, when you have several thousand hours turboprop and the like or even CRJ/EMB time etc it is just plain rude to be treated as a raw newbie. Even the military guys have to do it. (If you want to work for easyJet. Ryanair are similar. bmi regional are charging for their EMB rating too. How long before the rest of them join with self sponsored ratings?)

I´m one of those at the World´s Favourite, sitting on the -400, which IMHO is the only place to be in Big. Bearing in mind I´ve ticked the box and "scratched my aviation itch", if I was made redundant or lost my licence tomorrow, I wouldn´t waste my time searching for another flying job, but would get straight back to Uni and do a 1 yr MBA course and join my stinking rich mates doing interesting stuff in the City. The way I see it , only a senior pilot in Big on L/H or a similarly placed guy in Virgin probably has the kind of lifestyle a 15yr + professional in the U.K can expect .

I will say. Just over 3 years in now - the novelty has worn off. You damn well earn your money, and then some.

The unsocial hours, the pressure, the niff naff and paperwork, the rude - my god you wouldn't believe the rudeness - passengers, the boring bits, the crap food/air/seat/radiation/hotel, the incompetence of management (how to ground a fleet in one easy step ;) ).

Total pain in the £rse.

Not commuting in the rush hour, the direct responsibility, the broad picture, the grateful interested passengers, the fun bits, the banter/view/hotel bar, the pleasure of working with professionals.

Fantastic.

Swings and roundabouts.


It strikes me that these days nobody has a good word to say about their profession/working life.

The job of airline pilots has certainly gone way down in the last 20yrs. But then I think everybody says they same in comparable jobs.

I think an awful lot of airline pilots would prefer to be running their own company, doing something in the City for a ton of cash or just check out of stressville and run the best Lobster bar on the beach.

I suspect this may be because to become an airline pilot you generally have to have set, at some time, some pretty lofty goals for yourself. You therefore define yourself as being ambitious, confident of success and hard working.

This being the case the - own company/City/Lobster bar - were all actually attainable options if only we'd picked them. Hence Pilots tend to have slightly lower expressed satisfaction levels than other professions (they've been moaning about declining conditions since the Spitfires were retired, dammit!).

Don't be afraid to go for it. The jobs are there over the coming decades. They can never take the view away and at the end of the day - unionisation will always mean that we will earn a livable wage if nothing more.

Cheers

WWW

ps People seeking to invest or operate the Wakiki Beach Lobster Shack Corporation should send details to Weasley Towers,...

The streets arn't really paved with gold in London Town. Its a myth :) Looking at PPJN, from Jet S/O to Captain, chances are you will be earning stacks more than any other job that could realistically expect to get with comparable experience.

How about a plasterer in the South East then?

Rob:} :}

I think you're onto something there. The local college is now fully booked as everyone wants to be a plumber these days :uhoh:

.....erm, no antagonism intended but how the heck do you get most weekends off? This just isn't typical of the industry, frills or no frills. Someone has to crew those weekend flights!! Please tell us more about this fantastic company you work for...............

Should this be a sticky?

Hi5

;)Anyway, no offence intended to Mr R Sole, and very nice it must be for him too, but just to re-state to all wanabees that this is certainly not the norm if you intend to fly a jet for all the airlines I know. And generally it's got nothing to do with frills or not.

Expect to work many weekends. ;)

Personally, if it wasn't for the fact that the kids are at school I would prefer to work weekends! Enjoy the odd day off whilst the hoy-paloy are locked up in their offices :)

Got to agree with you there High Wing Drifter. Thats a reason why the unsociable hours aspect of the job actually appeals to me, though equally I know there are disadvantages to the unsociable hours.:)

Sticky or not??
 

One for the mods to think about and pull the old PPRuNe balancing act we pay them so much for:uhoh:

AGAINST: All mods have guidance from on high requesting minimal use of stickies to maintain readability and flow to the forum.

FOR: The need to have the downside available for a constant wave of people arriving here for the first time. A counter if you like to the marketing and enthusiasm that abounds in flight training while the experience of those actually doing the job for real is never aired other that here on PPRuNe. Prime example: the 'pilots' wheeled out to talk at schools and conferences are not really line pilots anymore otherwise they simply wouldn't be there to talk to you. There was something about flying the line that didn't satisfy them and they have sought positions such as in recruitment that actually get them out of an aeroplane for significant periods.

This may come as a terrible shock to some of you but airline pilots don't wake up one morning and find that rather than the 0600 flight on our roster we have to go and talk to wannabees and students. These people don't do 0600's anymore. Their career advancement now lies entirely outside flying a turbo prop or jet and therefore have an entirely different outlook and agenda to the one you assume.

Next. Flight training and airines are entirely different and unconnected industries. In theory if one hurts the other should in pretty short order. This hasn't happened as many of you qualified and patiently waiting have found.

I think that this thread would just have to be perpetually repeated like the "Am I too old," ones cropping up ad nauseam. For the first time in living memory the there has been a severe aviation downturn without the rest of the economy heading south other than in a few specialised areas like IT.

The flow of wannabees never stopped, in fact it's actually been a torrent because of the rest of the economic factors. Lowest interest rates in 50 years so money is cheap, house prices on another planet meaning you or your parents have undreamt of equity to borrow off. A finance sector fighting to win the award for most debt sold to the public - you can fill in the rest of the picture yourself.

We've turned into Australia and New Zealand practically overnight. Massive oversupply of fresh pilots to keep the schools running very nicely thank you. Massive debt incurred but no GA to go to other than instructing and further adding to the desperate cycle - finding more fresh meat. Meanwhile the mantra of shareholder value has produced an airline business ethos where personal advancement is dependent on cutting every possible aspect of pilots terms and conditions. Professional pilots simply cannot believe you considering paying above and beyond what you've already expended on licences to join them.

This thread won't ever stop anyone who can't bear the thought of life without flying. It will however make you consider, at least for a while, what you're letting yourself in for. Go to Rotorheads and have a look at this month's calendar to see someone whose aviating, fixed wing as much as helo, leaves us pro's gasping with envy. It's something folks who are bright and determined must think about.

Many reading this thread will have been instinctively offended by any criticism of the perfection of flight as a career but using this forum alone is something no pilots could recommend. Read elsewhere on this site. With an enlarged EU and even the Ryanair law of omerta getting very shaky there are other ways of gaining significant flying experience and enjoyment. Avoiding the queues at Ikea over the weekend just isn't a good enough reason for going into 50 grand's worth of debt. :ugh:

I'll just third that. Not having your life structured around weekends has always been a selling point to me... in fact a lot of what many seem to perceive as the negatives are.

No doubt I'll eat my words following years of 6 sector days at 6 day stretches etc.

Rob,

Personally, I think this thread is a little too subjective to be a sticky. If I were a mod, a sticky would be factual or a notice.

Better would be an idiots guide to the career as a sticky. Something that states in more clinical terms what typical terms and conditions are for the various roles (long, short, charter, taxi, etc). That has not, as far as I know, been succinctly and thoroughly covered.

Tend to agree with you HWG - the mods know how we feel about stickies. Could do with storing away the url for an appearance when everyone gets a bit to light headed though ;) :uhoh:

Essence is that folks know a little about the reality, adopt the practice of reading other parts of the site and then we've done our job.

Rob

I think if we were to make this a sticky we'd have to filter out a lot of the 'noise' which, paradoxically, is what keeps people coming back to the topic. Like the current 'A question for the Professionals' sticky thread, it would stagnate and effectively become invisible.

What I think I might do, if I get some time over the next week or two, is create a sticky post with links to the most repeated topics, including this one. If I could make it compulsory for all Wannabes to read all the linked threads, I would!

Scroggs

"Please read before making your first post"

or "Please read this forum for 14 days before making your first post."

Rob

:p

Scroggs

Stickies drive me up the wall - but a sticky containing useful thread links would be great. We could add to it over time like we did with the Wannabes Archive. Top idea.

Anyway, lets stop having a management meeting in public. :)

Cheers

WWW

The industry
 

I left a £45000 a year job in IT last year aged 34 to train as a commercial pilot. It's all I ever wanted to do, my Father was BEA/BA Cabin Crew, my Mother worked for BOAC and both my wife and I worked for BA. I had a good career and I had some enjoyable times working but I was increasingly aware that I wasn't following my passion in life. I've spent 30 years looking up at aircraft wishing I was flying them and getting goose bumps from the threshold of 27L in my lunch hour as they roared over my head. I'm now 2/3 of the way through my ATPL course and am thoroughly enjoying my flying (and am fed up with groundschool!)

The decline in pilot lifestyles is unfortunately echoed across most other professions as other posters have pointed out and is a worrying trend. I barely know anyone who enjoys work anymore, most friends and colleagues hate it - and most of them are educated professionals. I'm grateful to the airline pilots who have posted their fascinating insights here and can only hope I am one of those who always loves flying.

For anyone contemplating following this path I can confirm that making the break from a secure 9-6 style existence has been hard. Coming home after 6 hrs in the classroom and having to study for another couple of hours is a chore and lets face it JAR manuals aren't interesting even if you love aeroplanes! The exams were difficult due to the volume of material and you really have to work to get good grades - it's certainly harder than my Degree (Business Studies). You can forget social life for a year! Financially I reckon I am down in excess of £100 000 in terms of course fees and lost earnings and there is a lot of stress associated with not earning any money and getting a job. In short this isn't something to be undertaken lightly. On the other hand I have loved all the flying and have had some amazing experiences up there already. I'm proud to have got this far thanks in no small measure to the support of my wife.

I would definately do it again. It's wonderful never to have to wonder 'what if?' There's so much more to life than money that those City types will never know because they'll still be in the office. With luck I will spend the next 20 years flying airliners, taking people where they want to go, meeting some great people downroute, seeing the world and flying heavy metal with the best office view in the world. Someday, perhaps twenty years from now I hope I will occasionally watch a beautiful sunrise from 40 000 feet and still think how lucky I am.

Maybe having done other things beforehand will help me to appreciate being a pilot more than if I'd gone straight into it. I guess if you've never done anything else it would be hard to understand how miserable the corporate grind can be.

My Father did about twenty different jobs in his life, but the only one he was ever able to stick for longer than about 2 years was airline crew (23 years!) He retired in 1987 and he still misses it. Perhaps that says it all really.

Clear Skies to all,

Desk-Pilot

Well that’s more Airlines down…so that will be more Pilots looking for a Job. And as this is very much an Industry that works on supply and demand….Some of these guys are going to be unemployed for some time.
Strangely enough it’s never the fault of the staff, but usually some bean counter or group of directors that drive these companies on the rocks….
The Lo-cost idea although bringing cheap fares (and lousy service) to people, is as much to blame for this instability…….Since all airlines are cutting costs (usually in the staff department first…although the directors always seem to get their million pound bonuses!!!!!!:*.) eventually they all end up cutting each others throats. Don’t get me wrong…I’m sure this is prevalent in all business, today….Its just that, in aviation, a pilot, must stay current. The longer he is unemployed the harder It Is for him to get re- employed.
So all you guys who think the airlines are such a great idea……..There are only a small percentage of guys in the good jobs now……The rest bounce from job to job. There are better ways to enjoy your flying.

There’s some interesting views along the lines of this thread in some of the other forums....Looks like more are getting fed up and are now saying something. We need single Union representation to level the pay and conditions throughout this industry...or it’s just going to continue to get worse....We all really need to lobby BALPA along these lines, irrespective of who you work for…(like it or not it has to be the strongest union )

What wonderful encouragement you are
 

Deathcruzer, you have upset me twice now with this thread appearing, I am a 21 year old trainee just about to complete my final 14th exam and due to start CPL shortly after.
I find that you have some valid points about flying, however others on this thread ( and I don't think I am alone here) do not appreciate your cast iron view that all in aviation is crap, bad, not worth while in me, my parents, family, friends, investing their time, money and effort into.
I have no doubt that flying has changed since the days of smokey old Trident's and VC-10's, but it's not completetly gone to the dogs.
I have mates doing law and Medicine who are very interested by my flying pursuits, I wonder if their Consultant's and Law professors openly say on forums how bad things are and not to bother, do something else.
I appreciate the aviation world isn't perfect, but neither is modern day society, people in general have very little respect for anything these days, sad to say (yes most are of my generation.)
BUT it's not what others think, it's what I hold to be dear to me and have done for years that counts, - YOU should be promoting the profession of Airline Pilot, not slagging it off.
"If they knew how much fun it is, they wouldn't pay us a penny." Said a certain 737 Capt with nearly 35 years up there, I wonder if he shares your down beat centiment............

Flying is great fun, I can't think of a better way to pass the time and still be clothed.. however, the industry sucks.

wingbar, if it all goes well and you get a job soon after leaving flight school and it's on a jet and the company stays solvent then you're laughing. Life will be great.
If your career doesn't follow the above, if reading about the industry upsets you, wait till you're in it.
I showed your post to Checkboard, he said "good on you, you want to be in this industry because you love aviation, not because you think it is an easy path to riches." :)

Wing bar I’m not trying to upset anyone…..Just open up the realities of what its like out there .Flying is the greatest thing a human can do ….but over the years the industry has become trash. I recently flew with a new F/O not got his ATPL unfrozen yet, today he regrets the day he started off. He doesn’t see it getting any better either…he was, as I was, massively enthusiastic about the whole industry,.... when he started…..But after 12 months of 5-6 day weeks, 4 sector days, nights followed by days by nights etc….Its lost its shine. As I say that’s after 12 months.
I will be sure to keep my kids away from this. Private flying is the way to go.:sad:

Deathcruzer,

As you say over the years - do you mean since Sept 11th? During the pilot shortage days what was it like?

Do you suggest people should work in an office? No thanks - some people might like it but I dont and cant wait to start flying for a living whether it be 6 day weeks or not, I know the other careers I could be doing and no thanks - flying is my game!


Jinkster

Flying
 

Well,

abused in flying, long hours and the like.

I would give up my job which sounds exactly the same working in a factory for that anyday.

Nothing comes easy and if your gonna spend all that time effort and money, be prepared for it.

Deathcruzer i agree with you, when i took my IRT at Bournemouth, the examiner was chatting to me and asked what i would like to do, I said regional but if it never happens i will use the IR and put some fun back into my flying

Good luck everyone:ok: :cool:

Thank you for the great stories and advises you have given. However now as we know how horrible flying for the airlines can be ;) it would be great to hear similar stories from the other walks of aviation and flying. So if there are any rotorheads, corporate, bush, etc. pilot please step forward and share us your experiences.

Cheers!

Another wannabe who never wanted to fly for the airlines in the first place... :ouch:

I started life as a bush pilot working in the Kimberley in Australia. Then spent a couple of years peering out the window flying Coastwatch missions. Is that what you're interested in hearing about?

Dear all

I have been an airline pilot for 14 years, worked for large carriers and small, a veried career. Yes an airline career today is not as it used to be, economically it cannot be, the hours can be long and tiring, the automation, regulations, sops, medicals, sim checks etc, can make the whole job dam right tedious at times. But take a couple of weeks off and what do I want to do ? get in the plane and fly again.
Having said all the above, please really really look at your finances, your training establishment ( airlines do take note as to where you did your initial training, quite seriously ), no matter what is going on in your personal life, just concentrate on your training ( good result count ), do the class one medical first ( common sense, if you don’t pass this, the above is irrelevant ), overall if you take the step into aviation prepare for a hard slog, but never give up, keep in mind as to what made you make this crazy ambition into reality.

Good luck to you all, and to those that make it enjoy

Hey, i know this would happen , i'm currently working through my PPl, and i know there will be hell time. but just to remind you that in life you will always have bad times and remember son, perseverence( no quite sure about spelling, but whatever..) is the only key for success said my grand father

don't worry about relocation. i get to go to work in another town just to earn more money to pay my flying lessons. cos when i'm out ther in the sky i feel that where i belong. i'd pay sky and earth to stay there.

Think again where you were, before having your very introductory first lesson.

from now take care.:)

Re: Do you really Want to Do This...??
 

hey danny and the boyz i know you get sick of the age q,s but how old was you when got into the hot seat? just a point i think i picked up from the Doc,s ramblings (wint3rmute)and in his defence,he just hates his own job and as i see it would rather jump out of the NHS and into the RHS

Re: Do you really Want to Do This...??
 

I think Danny and Rob were 37 or thereabouts. I was 21 when I joined the RAF, but 42 when I joined the airlines. WWW was early 20s when he started with Go, I think - mine and WWW's potted histories are available in the 'Read this...' sticky thread at the top of the forum.

Scroggs