Slim20 Nice post....I respect anybody that can still be enthusiastic about the job after a full career....of course, it also depends on which company you work for, where you are based, dosh at the end of the month. Some people entering the industry now are not going to have the same T & C that some of us currently enjoy. At the end of the day, that is what pays for the life away from work.

Afternoon all

I work for a large city law firm. I work 09:30 - 21:30. I'm earning £50,000. I'm 25, and if my job gets anymore boring there's a distinct possibility that I'm going to fall into a coma.

Whilst I accept that your job certainly isn't 'Catch me if you can', I think you have perhaps lost touch with reality. The job security might not be as good as it used to be, but you guys get paid pretty well, and thets be honest the hours are pretty good. What do you think happens to us if we don't bill the correct number of hours or there's a partner budget cut?

You might be away from home, but I sometimes work all weekend and might work all night. Eventually I might earn £150,000 - £200,000, but hour for hour captains are earning more. You guys can choose where to work within reason. I'm chained to the city of London (£££).

I'll admit that the training costs are most certainly a ball ache, and combined with job security it is a worry. However the from where I'm sitting at 19:30 with s**t loads of work to complete, the grass not only looks greener, it looks like the Garden of Eden on a very sunny day. Then there's the view, word versus a constantly changing high altitude environment.

I'm not saying you don't have things to whine about, but I do think you need to realise that perhaps things really can be worse. Why did I do it? I made a mistake. I wonder how many pilots get to 25 and think the same? My hunch is not many.

Kind regards

A bored lawyer @ 19:50

A bored lawyer who can't tell the time, your post says 8:02 :ok:

Yet another day goes by, once again i have not flown!

Do i still want to do this? Yes

Will the weather allow me to finish my course? God only knows!



Rowley @ 21:05Z .:p




ps. hey look at that....the clock actually is fast......110 posts and never noticed!

Flying for a living
 

I agree with Slim 20

If like me youd give your right arm to fly for a living , you would already know the answer, Hell Yeah ! you want to fly.

I have to say that these pressures are in day to day workings within all industries apart from the weather considerations, commercial pressures are in every position.

Besides a choice of getting my A**e kicked by my MD or the accountant or flying an ILS into an airport a few times a day, good or bad weather , ill take that.

For me too, its not the money, its the flying, because i know i wont get the money i earn now flying.

well good luck to all and enjoy the flying:ok:

I would imagine that lots of pilots wouldn't mind swapping their present seat for a desk and the potential of earning 150-200K a year . A school mate of mine made partner in a "Golden Circle" firm a couple of years ago earning >250k a year whilst I am still waiting for a seat change. Alas, working for Big there is very little chance I will get to earn half that. Now, I know we don't do this job for the money, however, the long days in the office are respected and rewarded by your management/partners, and I doubt you have a fraction of the "******ation" factor that we go through daily passing through the building sites we call airports in the UK. 12 hour days are common in the airlines nowadays. The good old days of a couple of sectors in the morning and being home by lunch are long gone. I have no doubt that you are treated as an asset rather than a highly paid liability. Trust me, If I had my time again, I would swap places tomorrow, and enjoy my flying from the luxury of a First class seat.

Oh come on, I don't think the comparison is valid :rolleyes:

With no disrespect to professional pilots all over the world but any Tom, Dick or Harry can pass the professional pilot exams (you're even given the answers to memorise!!! :suspect: ) and hence become a professional pilot..... it takes a lot more nous to work yourself up to being a partner in a city firm.

I guess that only a top few percent of pilots could do that.

Besides, even FO for a "Big" will pay way more than the national average, why be greedy! :sad:

Snigs It wasn´t meant as a comparison, merely an observation. Besides, virtually all of my peers have a decent degree and I´m sure the "nous" to climb the corporate ladder if they wanted.The point I am trying to make is that the sort of person that is in the top few percent of the population/IQ/educational system ( however you want to measure or define it) would be better off taking their valuable skills to virtually any business except the airline business. Unless you want to be a non -executive director in Big, that is. It also amazes me that the most highly qualified people in the airline are flying the aeroplanes instead of running the company. I think a lot of people would be shocked at the lack of qualifications and experience of some of our very senior mangers at Big. It would appear that a bit of brown-nosing goes a long way...

These threads always get my blood pressure up and I know I shoudn't let them, but the sweeping generalisations with which some of you disregard the views of us actually doing the ****ing job beggars belief!!

Snigs, you say, what an absolutely gross insult and totally crass misunderstanding of the truth. And it's no use prefacing your jaundiced statement with "with no disrespect" because it's utterly disrespectful!! You are conveniently forgetting that airline pilots come from all backgrounds in flying. You are conveniently forgetting that all you're talking about is the groundschool, and even then you're not presenting a fair picture. You're conveniently forgetting about type ratings. Instrument ratings. Experience. Command ability, etc, etc etc......I'm sorry to make it personal, but you've made me angry, and you're talking through your a**e. So any Tom, Dick or Harry can become a professional pilot, and by inference in your post, secure an airline job and climb up the career ladder to command? With the myriad of pitfalls along the way..... Well of course they can (sarcasm).

Thanks for the gross insult to a profession I am very proud to be a part of. Thanks for dismissing my achievements in decades of professional flying, the blood, sweat and tears that I've put into this seemingly thankless and now by your reckoning pretty worthless occupation. Yea, thanks a whole bunch buddy. 'Cos now you've put me right, ANY TOM, DICK OR HARRY COULD HAVE DONE IT!!!!! :yuk:

carbonfibre, you say, your ignorance/arrogance is breathtaking! Do you really think that's all there is to it?? Or are you too conveniently making a totally unbalanced comparison?? "Just flying an ILS into an airport a few times a day" - what a completely moronic view of airline flying. And I love the way you talk about bad weather as if it's not real and can't actually hurt you. It can be frightening and KILL YOU! And not frightening in an exciting adrenelin rush kind of a way, just plain pant wetting, dry mouth, sphincter puckering, palm sweating, knuckle whitening scary. Scary so that you just want to be on the ground scary. Oh, but hold on, what am I talking about? I forgot - it's just about flying an ILS into an airport a couple of times a day.............

What to do?, you say, and Again, your ignorance of the realities of the job is astounding! Pilots are being worked literally to death in the UK at the moment. Of course there are exceptions, but if you look at the short haul area especially, it is basically fly, eat, fall asleep and start all over again. And having done both myself, I can assure you that twelve hours in the cockpit is a hell of a lot more tiring than twelve hours in the office. You're conveniently ignoring the cramped conditions, the locked door, the sparse and sh**e food. Dehydration. Vibration. Noise. Smells. ATC. Hot/cold, light/dark. FATIGUE. And sharing all this with someone probably of a totally different generation, with a different view on life, whom you might not even like. As for your pay comparison, it's just rubbish. Plain and simple.:yuk:

If I seem irritable:) it's because there are so many misconceptions regarding this job amongst the general public at large that I can't believe it when you guys who should be more knowledgeable make exactly the same assumptions.:mad:

By the way, if you're ever up for an airline interview, I think you should do a bit more research on what the job's actually like, or you're going to provoke a very similar reaction to mine from the interviewer. And then you'll still be flying that desk......:rolleyes:

Thanks Maximum,

Sincerely thanks. Yet again wannabees blow out the pros visiting this forum with their breathtaking arrogance and naivete. We do receive word privately from those with a working licence that with the attitudes displayed here wannabees deserve every rip off going. It appears experienced alpha types loathe inexperienced alpha types because it reminds them what a pain in the arse they used to be. It makes life very difficult for us especially when wannabees, as a group, come over as being self centred and immature.

Outraged???? Answer this - how many relieved, licenced and working wannabees have paid anything back to this site by writing, simply writing more than a paragraph about interviews, testing, line training and flying the line. Who has ever come back and told you what it is really like 3 years or more down the line? I'll give you a clue the percentage begins with a zero, then a decimal point and then several more zeros before we get a number.

Therefore the brutal point has to be made that even last year's crop of wannabees can't stick you. How do I know this? Because the vast majority can't be arsed writing about it, any of it for you. Take the hint - wind your bloody necks in about the job till you've done it. Shut your mouths about how good the pay is until you are 24 months into life with CAP 371. Button your lips, epecially elswhere on the site, about how little you'd work for.

There is a world of a difference between enthusiastic and embarrassing

The test to the truth of that? Would you dare come out with any of this bollocks to experienced pilots who might put in a word for you? Not the interviewers - just someone who might hand in a CV for you. It is the same guys who we need to help you here and you clear them out on a weekly basis with your attititudes.


Finally, one point the working guys haven't touched on yet is every single working day of your life you will be treated at least once like suspect bombers and be searched by brian dead jobsworths who know, who absolutely know that we don't need to carry a thing to destroy our airliner and all on board.

Rob Lloyd

PS Puzzled or dismayed at the tenor of the posts here from the working pofessional pilots? Ask yourself this: where are the posts from those with 3 years or more of experience telling you it is wonderful and they way they'd hoped it would be? There are those of you who will sweep hangars, drive a van - in fact do anything to fly. There are others who can't think of anything better to do, it sounds good and have never done any sort of licence or work towards a licence. This thread is for them.

This weekend we celebrate the move to a new server and many changes - some to these forums. To reinforce the strength of our belief that many of you would be far better off working in the city or other professions we're making aviation experience, perseverence and application the cornerstone of all future sponsorship from the PPRuNe fund.

PPS - Sorry Reddo - my mistake. Do the jobsworths know you go feral at at times???

[b]PPRuNe speaks fluent aviation - bluntly and doesn't take any money from wannabees.[b/]

Maximum,
Well said. Not every one who's passed the exams will get a crack at the shiny jets.... In fact, just because you've passed the exams doesn't mean you'll pass the flying component.

Rob,
Regarding the security threat, I did mention it.
Look guys, it is a good job. However, it isn't the job that you guys think it is. It used to be, but it certainly isn't now.
Why do so many of you tell us we're wrong?
In Australia, approx 1% of all the people who start a PPL with the view of going commercial will ever fly a jet. 1%!!! Slightly different market in the UK but you'll get some idea of the stats.

Actually, Reddo, my guess is that the success rate in UK is probably even less than your quoted 1% - but it's diffcult to know how serious people are when they say they want to fly for a living before they've started the process of training, so it's difficult to put a realistic number on the dropouts. Whatever the numbers, it's a very high proportion!

Peeps, there aren't very many Wannabe contributors who've gone from pre-fATPL to an airliner flight deck in the last couple of years; as you know, it's been a difficult time. Reddo and Pilot Pete are two of those few, and they're kind enough to share their experiences with you. There are some others of us far longer on the tooth who feel that it's worth sharing our perceptions of the industry, and how it's changed, with you in the hope that you will learn from what we say. Some of what we say is opinion, and is therefore arguable. Most of what we say is fact, and should be believed - although we may not put it as clearly as you'd like on occasion.

As Maximum and Pprune Towers have told you, this is a bloody hard job much of the time. In many so-called respectable airlines, the working conditions are pretty Victorian - and commercial pressures are continually adding to the pilots' burden while often effectively reducing the rewards. The opportunities for losing your entire career are frequent and intimidating, and the pressures on your domestic life are as destructive as any career I can think of. This job is not a licence to print money or to have an easy life, for the vast majority of airline pilots.

I'm one of the lucky few who enjoy what I do enormously, and I work for an airline with a fairly enlightened view (under BALPA pressure....!) of what working conditions should be - yet I'm sat in China now, unable to sleep (it's 4 am here), writing stuff on Pprune. I've been here 3 days and had maybe 8 hours real rest in that time because the time change, added to the overnight flight here, is pretty devastating. I have to operate home - a 12 hour flight - in 7 hours' time..... And then I've got to drive round the M25! I'll sleep all of Monday and most of Tuesday. I'll have Wednesday to sort the washing, claen the house, see my kids, pay my bills, see friends, arrange a car service, do the garden, fix a leak in the bathroom, go to the gym, do some essential shopping, and a few other jobs (takes breath...), before I drive the M25 to Heathrow to do the whole thing over again. For 5 days away with 8 hours bloody sleep again! And I enjoy this? I must be certifiable....

On top of that, I don't yet know what I'm doing in April, let alone later in the year. I cannot commit to any family or other social occasions - ever. I can't plan do get involved in any sporting events, or help out the local amdram society, or charity, or school. My friends (I still have some) have given up trying to invite me to things, 'cos I never turn up. I even nearly missed my own mother's funeral! In this job, you are opting out of normal society. At 48, I'm not senior enough to get leave during school holidays - and I may never be so while my kids are at school. I'm lucky in that at least I get a social life down route. Ask an EZ or Ryan pilot when he/she gets to socialise, and the answer will be pretty much 'never'.

This job is not easy, and there are very real disadvantages. Take all that into account and ditch the rose-tinted specs before you are too committed to change your minds. If you're not absolutely certain that this is what you want to do, having learned all that we are telling you, then go elsewhere and have a nice life.

Scroggs

Scroggs Maximum Pprune Towers

Thank you for your words of wisdom.

I agree there are a lot of wannabees with rose-tinted views on life, but there are many others (who usually do as you advise and shut up about stuff they don't know about) who just absorb and digest the information on these pages and are able to make far more informed choices with the help of your opinions.

So don't give up on us all - many of us do listen and learn, and value the pearls of wisdom available from these pages.

Thanks for the time you guys and girls put into all this.

Can I just say that I agree with Cloud69 and thanks to PPRUNE and the professional pilots here who put up with their careers and wannabes like me who have no-end of silly questions.

Screwballs - eyes wide open :sad:

This is the most useful thread I have seen in a long, long time.

I would like to think there are at least a few commercial pilots with more than a couple of years experience who'd encourage people to join the industry, but on the evidence here, they are extremely thin on the ground.

Food for thought.

Cloud 69 and Screwballs

I second what both of you have said and it is/has been a very informative thread.

:ok:

It's sad that for some of you this hasn't been the career you hoped it would be and of course it's a good that the realities should be passed down to "wannabes" who may be similarly naive.

However, i'd like to reassure that many alternative careers have equal if not worse drawbacks. I think a lawyer's already spoken but as a doctor i can tell you that if you feel hard-done-by as a pilot then that's nothing compared to being at the hands of the NHS!

We regularly have to work shifts of 5pm to 10am, for example, for 7 days only to be owed a rest at the end which is denied as we have to start a new job in a new environment on a simliar week of nights. (is this turning into a Monty Python sketch!?) I hope that puts your 6 days of 12hr sectors into perspective slightly. Also, i don't know what i'm doing tomorrow, let alone next week so i can never categorically accept an invitation or make any firm plans.

I can see the worry with biennual simulator checks and the medical but most of us have to apply for new jobs every 6 months. So, you're 2 months into a job and already its time to fill in countless application forms and hopefully swat up for interviews. Also the whole career is a series of pretty tough (e.g. limit to 30% of applicants passing) exams that must be taken if you want to progress at all.

Pay: I'm on the highest london pay band and am payed about 2/3 the amount that pilots i know at a similar stage in their career get.

You think working in a cockpit is bad... you should try an A&E department on the edge of a london council estate. Alcoholics with bottle wounds tend to not be very grateful or respectful.

I haven't even mentioned management (best not get me started) or the general public but... My point is that we all have difficulties in our jobs that we have to deal with and if what you enjoy about the work outweighs this then great... go for it. Just don't be despondant if everything isn't exactly as you imagined it, nothing ever is.

And if you don't like it.. find something else to do, whether it's plumber/teacher/gardener/whatever and free the job for someone who really wants to do it. I'm sure most jobs are easier to break into than the one you feel trapped in at the moment.

I'm not knocking the professionals who have shared their experiences, by default the thread required you to whinge! As i said there maybe those who are going into this career without realising these details and its possible someone reading this thread will be rightfully swayed away from professional aviation. I know a lot of doctors would have been helped if they were aware of the realities sooner. I just thought it should be said that you may be viewing alternative careers with rose-tinted specs.

As someone not directly connected with aviation i realise that some of my views may be not that well informed. However, i think can offer an objective stance.

.........oh dear, it's truly amazing isn't it.:rolleyes:

Just when you think the penny has dropped.

wint3rmute, you've started the whole cycle off again.

Look, this isn't about comparing who's got the worst job and the most awful working conditions. Frankly, I couldn't give a dam.

But you've made the points, and I just can't let them go unanswered. So here we go again.
patronising I'm afraid. How do you know what we hoped for? All we're trying to do is point out fact from fiction. well how would you know? Are you a professional pilot? The comparison is pointless. patronising and ill informed again I'm afraid. Like so many, you're conveniently ignoring the unique nature of our work environment. You also fail to take into account the extra hours of work we accumulate pre and post flight and the time we spend away from home. I also suspect that you can choose to move to better working conditions as your experience and skill grows. An airline pilot doesn't have the opportunity to progress up a career ladder that can potentially bring the big rewards that medicine can. another silly comparison. I'm sure you're on a darn sight more than a flying instructor. Or are you paying the NHS to let you work? yet another ridiculous comparison. Do you know what working in a cockpit is like then? And I might remind you of 9/11 and the present security threats, as well as all the normal ones we face every time we get airborne. thanks for that piercing insight into the human condition.

And then this really takes the biscuit you do realise we are experienced career professionals who've "served our time" as it were don't you? Don't you? And you're seriously suggesting that we don't "really want to do it". Has it occured to you that the rules have changed, the job has changed and that we're simply trying to stop the erosion of our terms and conditions even further? And what about mortgages, family commitments etc etc etc - where do those fit in to your glorious suggestion? you make the assumption that we haven't experienced alternative careers.

Look, I'm sure you're a thoroughly nice chap and all that, and it's gratifying that you took the trouble to post at all. But, you must realise this is a very emotive subject for those of us who actually know what the job is like. Unless you've sat in that flight deck as a professional pilot you just can't understand. The image and reality are poles apart.

That's why I reserve the right to jump down anyone's throat if I think they're helping to perpetuate these myths.

wint3rmute

Good thoughtful stuff but if you're new here just some background:

I don't know why but born and bred airline pilots have proved incapable of running a successful website. Danny, me, Scroggs all had long careers before going anywhere near Airliners. Amongst other things Danny was an Israeli soldier, while I did 13 years at the pointy end of life in Toxteth. Scroggs has 20 years of military flying under his belt. We don't spout as aviation dilletantes bored or trapped with our chosen path. We fought, kicked and clawed our way onto the flightdeck at ages where we shouldn't have had a chance.

We did it approaching or actually in our forties with families and mortgages. We suceeded, we prospered and this site is our way of putting something back.

There's nothing in it for us to tell wannabees the realities of the job. We get nothing out of it. It costs us money of our own to run the site. Other than us every single person a wannabee has contact with is either trying to sell them something or justify their own expensive decisions.

You are most unusual in knowing any working airline pilots - the majority of wannabees have no contact at all with anyone in the business. We're here to be brutally honest friends - the only ones who will tell, what is to some, the unpleasant truth. It needs to be told because it is not in the financial interest of any club, training organisation or even trade union to tell the truth.

Those who live, breath and sleep aviation will find their way to the flight deck. We are just making sure that our readers know that there are much more pleasant ways of flying and earning a good living.

Tens of thousands of pounds are spent selling the dream to wannabees. We are the only, I repeat only counterbalance. You, of all people, must share our loathing of spin and marketing and the 'work' of non active, never been on the front line, drones and careerists who utterly depend on fresh, eager new faces coming through the system.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd

:O Rob, you put it much better than me!

wint3rmute, apologies if I've come across like a heavy handed j**k, but this whole area does tend to get my back up just a little as you might have noticed. Nothing personal intended.

Welcome!;)

Ah.. duly noted all.

No probs maximum, i can see this is an emotive issue for you all and can understand how someone with no experience spouting their opinion would annoy. That's why i said: " As someone not directly connected with aviation i realise that some of my views may be not that well informed". A lazy disclaimer maybe!

I may well attempt a reasoned response to the posts on here, but at the moment I'm tempted to say "I quit"

Rob, Just like many of the people who post here Rob. Most do know what goes on, and are willing to take the chance.

I ask the question, why do I work 45 hours Mon-Fri designing the stuff that professional pilots take for granted, and then put in all day Sat and Sun as a flying instructor. So I don't even have time to Maximum, you see what you see....

Not at all.

That's all that's needed (oh and a glorified PPL skills test) to be a licensed commercial pilot......

I'm not forgetting those. But your arrogance has made me angry, you sound so superior. If you're the person that I might spend a few hours sitting next on the flight deck then, I'm sorry, but I don't want to.

Yes they can, and you know some too, I'll bet.

. Why sarcasm.

Give me some respect, you may be surprised.... I might deserve some!

Snigs, I think anyone reading your last post with even half a brain will be dumbfounded considering all that's been said...............

you astound me. what makes you think you've earned any respect when you continue to make light of my profession?

Very interesting....................

Ok, I’ve just re-read everything that’s been written, and I’m about to wind my neck in, but not before I try to explain. :(

Firstly, maxy101, I couldn’t agree more, the Dilbert concept (i.e. promote the incompetent) is rife in many other industries too.

Maximum, I’m not going to get into a slanging match with you, last night’s post was a little influenced by a nice Rioja, and perhaps wasn’t well thought out nor well put.

I think I need to address my “Tom Dick and Harry” comment. I hope I can illiterate this without digging myself further into my hole….. What I was meaning by this is that once the professional exams and the CPL skills test are passed then you can call yourself a professional pilot. It’s a bit like an electrician calling himself an electrical engineer but not having any engineering qualifications, i.e. a little misleading. What I failed to make clear was that I am fully aware that a shiny new license is only a license to learn, I agree that there is so much more to being in command of a pax carrying commercial flight. But I’m sure that you’ll agree that there are a few “professional” pilots out there who are “unemployable” (and after this contribution I’m probably perceived as one of them, if I wasn’t before! :uhoh: ) and this is where I was coming from with T D & H.

I am really sorry that you have seen my posting as an insult to your profession and to you personally. It was never meant to be. It seems that I’ve upset a few people with some ill judged comments, once again I’m sorry.

I retract this, it was written a fit of wine fuelled pique.

What I was originally trying to put across is that there is always a different perception of professions from those on the outside to those in the know. People think that my current job is glamorous, working all around Europe etc, but only I know the truth.

I know that this is exactly what you’re trying to do for the Wannabes, tell them the truth, which is great, but I suggest that a lot of Wannabes know the pitfalls, and still possess the desire to fly for a living and still “chase the dream” with eyes wide open. My point being that the grass is no greener in any other profession. it’s just that I perceive that what you do for a living is slightly less !!!!ty than what I’m doing at the moment.

I have a license to learn, and I have done and continue to do so, I have been a PPRuNer as long as you so I have read threads similar to this before, and I have found them invaluable because they have shaped my perception of what it is like in the real world. I also know, as well as anyone can who’s on the outside, how things have changed, I have PPRuNe to thank for that too.

I know I'm green, but a shade less dazzling than some. I shall bow out now, having learnt a valuable lesson, booze and PPRuNe don’t mix.

Ahhhhhhh Snigs,
You've learnt a valuable lesson. Never post pissed. We've all done it and as the hangover fog clears, dive for the edit button.
Sounds like you need a weekend to yourself and your family. (If only you could find the time ay?)

Real Life 101

There are still people reading this thread that are discounting the contributions from working pilots.

Emotionally they've discounted it purely because of the of preponderance of opinions and fact knocking at the foundations of their plans and dreams. Just like smokers and the facts......

Therefore they have decided that in terms of their intellect the offerings are partial, biased and untrustworthy. As with the thread on airines that 'demand' an integrated course lets put those thoughts to the test.You are invited to rebut the following line by line and point by point. Let's hope for a little more than the hollow silence following the last little excercise in truth.

1: The JAA written exams have almost zero practical use. They are simply a hoop to jump over to gain membership of a very exclusive club because there is no GA industry in Europe to weed out those who won't make it. In countries with a thriving, if badly paid, GA scene other hurdles are presented barring the way to a jet flight deck such as the requirement for a 4 year degree in the States. In small or emerging nations this can take the form of formal entrance exams or simply patronage, bribery or nepotism. For decades the tens of thousands of Eastern European pilots had to be lifelong members of the communist party as well as university graduates.

Your outlook or cultural background will be reflected in how you view each of these entirely artificial hurdles to getting on a flight deck. Not one of them reflects your skills as an aviator. They are simply an entry control mechanism.

The psychology works like this - because all these mechanisms are entirely artificial, can be interchanged with any other one and are inherently divorced from the reality of the job working pilots ignore and reject everything you are going through. Once a pilot is competent and comfortable on line they want absolutely nothing to do with the utter nonsense that preceeded doing the real job. This is a key to the next question so don't blow all your ammo answering this one!

2: Why do experienced, working pilots refuse to take part in the two wannabees forums? You can't stop them sticking their oar in at every possible and conceivable opportunity everywhere else on the site. By nature they are opinionated - this forum has the opposite effect. Why? I'm serious, why do they avoid these forums so assiduously?

3: The words of the professionals offering their thoughts on the modern profession in this thread more that accurately reflect the overwhelming opinion of those posting on the rest of the site. Forums which uttely dwarf the two here. Do you disagree with that?

4: However aviation mad a wannabee is, however much they've lived and breathed it they have as much real knowledge of working life in the flightdeck as I have of competitive football. Just because I'm a mad, passionate and very knowledgable fan doesn't mean I have the slightwest inkling of what is going on the head and heart of a participating player.

5: Do you disagree that you are working extrememely hard and going into immense debt to spend 12 and 13 hour days behing a locked and barred door? Some reading this might find the thought of 30 or even 40 years of that quite depressing - some reading this will actually find that distressing. The average airline flight deck is an exciting wonderworld to most reading this. Like any work environment, even an A+E department, it just becomes where you work in time. Do you dispute that the average flight deck, locked and barred is also the size of an surburban downstairs loo? Do you believe that everyone reading this is fully informed and aware of that and is happy at the thought of up to 30 years or more in that space?

6: Are you disputing that we are telling wannabees the truth. Are you disputing that no training school, FTO or even trade union will ever inform a prospective customer or member of the facts we offer?

7: With a few honourable exceptions do you disagree that the vast majority of people in FTO's and clubs have never actually done the job they are training each other for in a spiral of unintentional ignorance and intentional marketing.

As an analogy if you speak to a teacher, policeman, paramedic or doc in a 'front line' inner city they will all have the shared experience of being joined by fully qualified probationers who were taught by those who couldn't hack it in that real same world. Not liking it or being able to cope is not the problem - their unwarranted, inexperienced influence on each new generation into the ranks is. Each wannabee spends a thousand times more 'influential' time with peer figures in aviation but without a moments airline experience than with actual airline people.


8: Should there be a place where wannabees can get the truth from people who are licenced, who are doing the job, who have succeded in getting through the system with no silver spoons getting in the way of RT and aren't taking a penny from you? You can't have that without telling painful truths at times? Do you dispute that we are being truthful?

Answers by teatime, best handwriting and spelling counts except mine :uhoh:

Regards from the Towers
Rob

As a wannabe (PPL/night 60hrs, 22 yrs old), i can sympathize with both sides of the story.
I had always fancied the idea of a pilot as much as i fancied the idea of being an astronaut, movie star, etc. But i focused on a more 'conventional' career path in engineering cos of my love for things technical. At the age of 15, i went on my first commercial flight since i was 3 on a B767-200. That was were the facination with aviation began and i have not lost my enthusiasm yet. There are a lot of wannabes who still have the childlike enthusiasm to fly commercially but havent woken up to the reality of the industry.
At the moment i do all kinds of jobs to finance my training and this has given me the opportunity to work in different industries and i can tell you that there aren't too many industries out there that are much better off than aviation.
wint3rmute
I'm glad you decided to post. your career is considered to be one of the more appealing at the moment. there are loads of people my age fighting for places in medical school who dont the reality of the job e.g GP's work 62hrs a week on average. So i its safe to say think naivete is widespread among youngsters in our society reagrdless of the industry they are aiming for. Don't be suprised by the harsh responses you have recieved. in aviation its hard to get a point across,no matter how valid, if you do not have "experience".
The next time you meet any 'city' professionals earning £150-200k ask to see their blood pressure monitors. these devices have become more and more common among today's professional because of the increasing pressure put on them in today's target-driven economy. I have a friend whose a millioniare property developer in the US and he wouldn't leave home without his BP monitor. I would like to have his money but i'll think twice about wanting his lifestyle. And when it comes to living on the road, let's just say that long haul begins to look pretty good. Jet lag? someof these guys have enough 'flying hours' that if they were pilots they'll be able to land a crippled 747 backwards in a 50kt crosswind:} . I have an uncle who job has taken him to 170+ countries, try telling him about jet lag.
But i've got to say that airlines pilots long and short haul have a much better life than most people in todays society. The average brit earns £20-25k, works 40-50hrs (this figure is rising). The lifestyle of pilots has deteriorated over the past few years but pilots are still better off than the average worker. there are a lot of people who have gone into the aviation industry with the wrong expectations and they make up a large proportion of the "Whingers", but you have them in every industry.
My advice to fellow wannabes is that you get as much knowledge as you can before you dive headlong into this career or any career and you have a back up if things don't go according to plan. PPRUNE and it's founders/moderators/contributors has been an invaluable resource that a lot of us wannabes will forever be indebted to. But sometimes the genral opinion on pprune doesn't reflect reality, e.g. this thread has been mostly negative. Ask yourself how the public will feel if all pilots were to go on strike to protest deteriorating working conditions? Majority will feel little or no symathy.
I want to be a pilot because of my love for flying, travelling and sense of adventure and I'm aware of the downsides of the job.
Someone was suprised as to why most people don't go into business. the level of corporate bankrupcies have skyrocketed over the past few years and interest rates are rising. and if you want to know why some of us dont want to go into the city, well as i mentioned above there is more stress and longer working hours than in aviation and also the future isn't rosy when it comes to earning potential because of the fat-cat-pay revolt and a growing resentment of graduates (there is a feeling that a lot of graduates earn more than the really deserve or are doing jobs that aren't really necessary.
I personally think that the govt and industry in general will be forced to cut back on bureaucracy and waste in the future to reduce operating costs/tax and a lot of high earners will lose their jobs.
I am not putting my hopes on improving working conditions for pilots but i will do my best to make sure they do when i find myself in a position to do so, but it isn't about the money. There was a study recently that concluded that the happiest people earn £13000 (let's hope MOL doesnt read that:E ).
Capt. Manuvar

Snigs, as Redsnail says, we've all been there. Seems like such a good idea at the time!! Just hope you enjoyed the Rioja....

Anyway, no worries. (And I think you'd find me surprisingly easy to get on with in the cockpit - even if I do say so myself!)

I'm not starting the whole argument up again, don't worry, but I think further explanation is important for all wanabees, because it directly affects your future working conditions in aviation.

Your Tom, Dick or Harry comparison provoked a reaction mainly because our status as professionals has been consistently attacked in recent times, especially so over the last decade. Many airlines have, and are, cutting our terms and conditions of employment down to the very bone.

One of the easiest ways they can achieve this is to portray the job as something less than it actually is. A job that anyone who has the money to pay for a licence can do. You see the problem? And obviously to the general public, shareholders etc, this would seem to make perfect sense. It's a job you buy your way into, why should they receive any more remuneration than a bus driver? Why shouldn't they work 12 hour days six days a week? And so the rot continues............

This is only one of the ways in which the quality of your life as a professional pilot is constantly under threat. (And most of that quality has now gone in the shorthaul game certainly but that's a different story).

So, if those of us on the inside don't do everything we can to preserve the totally justified perception of our professional status, then what hope do we all have? You can perhaps gauge more clearly now why you should do everything you can to promote the importance of that professional licence. We've enough people on the outside attacking it.

I can remember sitting in the right hand seat as a new F/O, back in the days when cockpit visits were allowed. And it used to drive me mad when some Captains would immediately say "it's flying on autopilot, all we have to do is sit here and watch it" or words to that effect. Or "it's easier than it looks once you get the hang of it" (sic)!!! Now these comments usually came from a misplaced sense of modesty, of not wanting to appear arrogant. What they failed to realise was that nine times out of ten they were simply confirming the publics' misconceptions about the job in the first place. You can imagine it - "what a job - they just sit there and push some buttons and the 'plane does it all for them - and they get paid a fortune".

So I always try to make sure I don't fuel these misconceptions. The job is tough and does require unique skills of mental agility, physical co-ordination, spatial awareness and management of both man and machine. And sometimes even good old fashioned bravery! We should never make it seem less than that. There are enough people out there trying to do that for us.

Anyway, thanks for the reply Snigs, once again, no worries.



Then I read Capt Manuvars post.........

There's a big dent in the brick wall where my head keeps hitting it.

Capt. Manuvar. Well, what can one say? Here we go again.

ah, you've already worked as a pliot then?well, erm, yes, that's because we have the experience and you don't! actually, high blood pressure through stress and a sedentary life style can be a big problem for pilots too you know. erm yes but those "flying hours as you call them are spent eating, drinking, sleeping and watching movies down the back. how would you actually know? That's what I'd really like you to tell me - how would you know?? You obviously know better than me. I suppose you'd class me as one of them then. I had the wrong expectations, and I'm just a whinger. yes, but you seem incapable of properly assimilating this knowledge. nicely backs up the point I was making in my last post. I can forgive you this because you're young. But I can assure you that come your thirties and forties, money will be a big issue, probably the biggest next to health. Sure, money can't by happiness, but it stops you being a slave, and the more you have of it, the more choices you have in life, therefore the more freedom. And I'll tell you, freedom goes a long way to getting you near to happiness. now that's funny. Love for flying - great, a prerequisite. Travel? Sense of adventure? Join the army and try and get into special forces.

Here's what to do. Take your computer, load up MS Flightsim and set yourself up in the broomcupboard. Ask a grouchy neighbour in his mid fifties who you don't particularly like to come in with you. Get your mum/wife/girlfriend to lock the door and be on the other end of a mobile when you want something - but only now and then. Run the hoover in the cupboard to simulate flight deck noise levels with the recirc fans. Now stay in there flying routes. Make sure you do all the proper RT. Checklists. Oh, and make sure you let the neighbour be the Captain and run the show. (Remember you don't really like him). Have a crappy TV dinner thingy for lunch. Eat it on your knee with the hoover still going - that's the cleaners. Eat it in five minutes 'cos you're late. Go outside in the rain and get wet. That's the walkround. Do lots of performance calculations. Repeat ad nauseam at all times of the day and night for six days. Give yourself two days off, finishing at midnight then getting up at four thirty in the morning to start all over. Do this for years. Then eventually you can swap seats with your neighbour, and his son can come and be your F/O. Continue until retirement.

This is not, I repeat not, meant to be a comparison with other jobs. That is largely irrelevant - it's you guys who keep coming up with the comparisons. But it is meant to give you a taste of reality, not fantasy.

Hey, wint3rmute I love my job. And I care enough about it that I don't want people joining it under a misapprehension of what it really entails. Most of all, I don't want to have to fly with people who whinge about it not being what they expected.

So, as the schools will not whisper a breath about what it's really like, we have to tell the warts'n'all stuff here. Why don't the schools tell the truth? Mostly because they don't actually know what working in the airlines is actually like in the 21st century - many don't even posess an ex-airline pilot on their staff! But, by Christ, they'll hype it up to the eyeballs and then some...... because they need the Wannabes' dosh. They don't give a flying toss what you discover once you've qualified and they've got your £60,000.

Don't believe me? Go and ask your school's instructors when they last flew in an airliner as other than passengers! Ask them what are the prevalent issues that airline pilots face, as identified by BALPA and the IPA? Where are the lectures on the downsides of our lifestyle and how to cope with them - and, most importantly, how to prepare your family for them?

Because of the perceived glamour, the downsides of airline flying are dismissed as whingeing, but the reality is that it is as hard as any career out there - and maybe harder than most. The NHS environment has become a byword for poor working practices, long shifts and burned-out workers (and profligate spending on fripperies, consultants and management - but hey, this is a pilots' thread on a pilots' site!), but it's not the only one to suffer these problems - just the best known.

'Keep your eyes open, and don't believe the hype' is really the message we're trying to give. If you stick to that, you're far more likely to avoid disillusionment and to actually enjoy the realities of this career.

Scroggs

OK Rob, here goes:

1) Agreed. The whole object of the exercise is to get the little blue licence and then get a foothold on the employment ladder. This forum is stacked out with people trying to do just that, and I can easily see why – once ensconced in the cockpit – the trials and tribulations of getting there lose relevance and fade into the background.

2) Maybe, just maybe, it’s because when they do try and offer an insight into what the job is really like, they are very often shot down by an audience that doesn’t want to hear the message. That is precisely the point I tried to make 3 pages ago. Bonkers if you ask me, as it simply puts people off trying – maybe it’s a reflection of the ages of some of our posters, maybe it comes from being anonymous - I really don’t know.

3) I can’t argue with that. Like I’ve already said, I’d love to hear some words of encouragement from experienced (say 5 years plus) commercial pilots, but they are conspicuous by their absence. All the pilot’s I’ve jumpseated with were welcoming, encouraging and positive about the future in aviation. Obviously that was before 9/11.

Your description and prognosis suggests that fewer and fewer people will decide this is the career for them. That must trouble you as much as anyone?

4) Correct. Now that the flightdeck door is firmly shut, we rely more than ever on information such as this forum provides. We can hang around airfields and hope to meet someone on their day off, but what else can we do?

5) No, I don’t disagree at all. You might also have mentioned strange smells from the forward toilet, lowered immune systems from having a permanently disjointed body clock, the effects of spending your working life cooped up in extremely dry rarefied air. Some of us are aware that the job isn’t really that glamorous – or even healthy – and we still want to do it. I must be barmy.

6) Nope, not at all. You’ve got no axe to grind and you’re not trying to make a profit out of me.

7) Like you, I can think of a few exceptions, but yes, they are few and far between.

8) No argument.

Not exactly a point by point rebuttal, but I think I’ve at least managed to spell most of it correctly.

And a quick question for you; with the benefit of hindsight, if you could turn the clock back, risk it all and follow your dream, would you do it all again? Answers (a) as at September 10th 2001, and (b) today.

G SXTY

Great reply but it would be expected from you and few other of the wise heads. Your point 5 was actually better than mine.

But enough of the carefree banter - some straight answers.

Prior to the mid 1990's I'd do it again in a heart beat. Bear in mind that even then the old hands said, with genuine accuracy, that it wasn't the job it was. It was then that we lost slot after slot and went hours into discretion doing baggage ID's. Years later 911 has only formalised and speeded up what was already happening.

Post mid 1990's/911 and under generic UK management working in the 'spirit' of Cap 371 I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Whether carrying on with previous profession or skills or retraining in a hands dirty trade I would have the time to fly my Jodel and, once re-established, the money to start playing with interesting aircraft of the vintage, warbird or rotary ilk. This is an amateur website in the best sense of the word - I'd love to be an amateur pilot in the best and most enjoyable meaning as well. This thread is here to point out that we suspect many of you would actually be far happier following that route. Especially once you have families - some of you will have or had absent parents and know what I mean. Imagine growing up, every birthday you ever had not, knowing if your mum or dad would be there. Every one of them. You too can be that parent.

If it ends up that there are fewer of you it will, according to market economics, mean that the job will improve or at least slow down the decrements in income, perks and quality of life. In reality it probably just means Reddo will get all her mates over.....

However, a confession, most full time pilots would cheerfully kill to get my Boeing job. It is very different, very demanding at times and I rather like it. The reason - well I don't work as an airline pilot anymore.

Regards
Rob

Rob says it all.

We're not just displaying the changing viewpoint that you'd expect from anyone who's been in any business for some time.

The job really has changed enormously. The rot set in in the early nineties, then started to accelerate throughout the rest of the decade.

Before then, I too would do it all over again at the drop of a hat. But with the working conditions you're looking at now, it's just not an attractive or sensible proposition. So much better to make money and fly for yourself in my opinion.

And as well as missing kids' birthdays, there's Christmas as well. For a lot of airlines these days, Christmas is just another day. Not very nice looking back to all the times you might have dissapointed your kids.

These words are meant in the sincerest way. Don't believe the hype.

Why don’t you all quit and become barristers? You’d be pretty damn good!

After being shot down in flames a page or two ago, I don’t think I’ll offer any more opinion than the one above. I do however have a couple of questions.

1)How have the working hours got so much worse? Are they not rigidly restricted?

2)Exactly how have things changed since 9/11? I don’t know anything more than the bolted door and increased pre flight security. I’m really not interested in ‘I can’t believe you don’t know responses’ – I don’t fly jets.

3)Do you even get to leave the cockpit for a stretch? What about DVT?

4)Am I correct in assuming that given the continuation of terrorist activities and the subsequent 8% drop in BA’s shares last week that this lack of faith will keep things this way? So no jumpseats then?

Kind regards

I have been reading this tread with interest, there have been a lot of good points raised by people on both sides of the argument.

What I find is that the 'wannabes' as previously stated seem to be looking at the whole aviation industry through rose tinted glasses. This in itself is not a problem, what the problem seems to be is that when an experienced pilot makes a post on this forum pointing out the realities of life as a pilot he or she is cut down.

The main reply seems to be along the lines of 'I love flying and have always wanted to be a pilot so will not get bored and certainly won't winge!'. I must admit that when I was a wannabe I held this exact view, I thought 'hey if you don't like the job and want to winge then give up and let someone like me who loves flying do the job'.

What people have to realise is that most of us love flying and have always wanted to be pilots, if you didn't then the chances of putting up with all of the trials and tribulations along the way would be slim. The harsh reality is though that a love of flying and all things aviation will not stop you from becoming bored and disenchanted with the job, especially when you can see conditions becoming worse by the month.

Yes we are protected by 'flight time limitations', I can tell you though that when you fly to the limits of these limitations day in day out you soon start to wonder whether they do in fact prevent fatigue. I have done all sorts of work from office to labouring and have never been as knackered as I am at the end of a six day stint doing six sectors a day with twenty five minute turn arounds.

In the past this was compensated for by the 'bennefits and pay' that a pilot could expect, these to though have all but dissappeared, it is cheaper for me to book travel through a travel agent than to buy a ticket from 'staff travel'. If I want anything to drink besides water on board the aircraft I have to pay 'normal rates', no discount for staff, I can't run into the terminal to buy a can of coke becuase you get searched both ways which in itself is not a problem except when you have twenty five minutes to offload, reload, fuel, complete paperwork and get underway for the next sector. As for the pay, yes some senior jobs do certainly get paid well. This is not a comfort though when your average wage is used to maintain the tens of thousands of pounds of debt you will accrew on the way to your licence.

Having said all of this, the flying ultimately makes up for all of this, just please enter the industry with eyes open.

A.H:)

- that made me chuckle What to do? - I suppose there is a touch of the Perry Mason's about some of our posts! :D

In answer to your questions, I'll try to keep it brief: the trouble is, the restrictions allow too much work before they kick in. Lorry drivers are under far more limiting controls. The flight time limitations were meant to be a worse case scenario once in a while. Now we're rostered up to them nearly every time we go to work. Days are much longer, earlier starts and later finishes. Out of bed at 0330-0400 and home with the office workers week after week is not uncommon. Lates a similar length. In some companies constantly away from home. More air traffic. Greater delays. Reduced seperation. Constant ATC chatter. Constant company monitoring of your performance. Unable to safely have a glass of wine with your evening meal before earlies the next day due to new regs. Just about able to have a social drink in the pub on your first day off out of two. Finishing at midnight before two days off, starting on earlies. It's always been a serious job obviously, but we used to have "fun" as well as being responsible. The "fun" has now largely gone. Twenty five minute turnrounds mean you work constantly from beginning to end, locked in that little cockpit. No chats round the coffee machine. No lunch break. No loo apart from the smelly old aeroplane toilet. etc etc........
Well, the locked door is a biggy. We used to feel less like battery hens. Nice when the cabin crew could come in for a chat when things were less busy. Nice when you got the odd cup of tea or cofee handed in from crew who were your friends as well as colleagues. The open door fostered a good sense of teamwork, and just made the work much more agreeable. Now it's a major security operation if you want to go to the loo. And with short turnrounds, you can't even nip into the terminal. It might seem petty, but the increased security checks start to drive you nuts on top of everything else. We are going to be at the controls, but we're treated like prime suspects! Family can no longer travel with us or even visit us in the cockpit. (By the way they still had to pay just in case you get the wrong idea). And of course there is the actual increased threat to our lives!! Well, things like DVT and fatigue only apply to passengers - nobody ever seems to consider that we are human beings too! And basically, it's very hard to get out for a stretch these days. Yup, no jumpseats. Even for family.

The bottom line is, we are now treated like hamsters on a wheel. Get locked into the cockpit, minimal food and water, work up to the limits, go home, eat, sleep and start all over again. And don't make a mistake. Lots of stress and pressure and very little fun I'm afraid.

Dear all,

I have read this thread with great interest and i think a lot of the concerns raised here actually varies quite significantly from one operartor to another. Could AH, Maximum and others who have made comments on their lifestyles please let us know who they work for and at the very least let us know if they are majors, regionals, GA etc etc. Then we may be able to put all this into perspective!

Jam

I worked for a night freight operator flying Sheds in the UK. Resignation takes effect this Thurs, off to a lo-co.

I doubt many of the working guys will state the company who they work for. Anonymity and all.....
For me it's too hard to remain anonymous.

jam123 yes, I was also getting concerned that Maximum's posts would be seen as applying to all ailines!

As most of you know, I work for Virgin Atlantic. The vast majority of my flying is ultra-long haul (12 hour sectors). While we don't have an open cockpit door, we do have an effective security set up which allows relatively easy access by the crew, and the sector lengths mean that it is impractical (and bloody dangerous) to prohibit excursions by pilots.

I don't work every day, but I do work very long hours, which often do approach the restrictions, even with the extensions permitted by the use of three or even four pilots. I do still get around 12-15 days off at home every month, but sleep absorbs many of them!

The security restricions have reduced the attractiveness, and the availability, of staff travel, and we can't now use flight deck jump seats for family members, but to be honest a busy airline will dump staff travellers in favour of full-fare peeps - and always did! Maybe I'm unusual, but I can't see the point of travelling in my spare time - that's my job!

Anyway, for me the job is still good, but not as good as it was. Trouble is, you've pretty much got to go through a period at one of the airlines like Max's before you can get to something like Virgin.

jam123 and scroggs, apologies if I've given the impression there isn't variation between operators and short haul/long haul.

I am obviously talking from a "short" haul jet perspective. I say "short" because two sectors sometimes there and back can add up to a long haul flight time, but that's another story. Most wanabees who make it will be heading for this type of operation.

Another thing to remember, and I'm sure scroggs would agree, is that long haul doesn't suit everyone. In my own career I could have gone down this route but I don't like long sectors and I'd prefer to be at home at night (not that short haul has always given me this either!). Horses for courses I guess.

Average days off per month these days in short haul jet operation between 8 and 10 depending on the operator. But remember, you're working earlies, lates etc and generally finishing lates before days off and starting earlies, so in reality you're getting less time off than the average while having no time for anything social on the days you work.

I must point out, my posts are not intended to be a "downer" on flying in any way. I love flying. It's the rest of the cr*p I hate. My intention is to give you the reality behind the myth as I see it - it's obviously up to you guys to decide what you do with it.:cool:

Max, you're absolutely right - long haul doesn't suit everyone! I fly with one or two who should definitely move back to short haul, but there you go. Short haul is too intense for me. Time away from home is relative - I spend more time away in one go, but I get to take the kids to school and I get lunch in the pub occasionally, so I'm happy with that. The ex-wife wasn't, though... and she would have hated the short-haul lifestyle even more. So it's well worth all wannabes thinking very carefully about what this job does to family life.

As you rightly point out, short-haul is where you guys are going, at least for a few years. I know there are one or two of you who occasionally get a long-haul sector with Britannia, Monarch etc, but that is not living the long haul lifestyle!