Professional Pilot USA vs EU
 

Dear Members of this forum,
I am a German citizen with the ability to get a greencard due to my family. I am still a minor and at the last month of highschool. Now, I have passed the first exam of the European Flight Academy for Lufthansa. However, if I am not accepted I am thinking about moving to the US. I know there are a lot of differences and a lot is based on "personal preference". I know that here in Europe I can be in a shiny A320 within 3 years with less than 500 hours. But this is not what I really beg for. If I chose to go to the US, I'd have to blast my ass of getting 1500 hours to be eligeble for a regional carrier. And how are the chances of being accepted? My idea was to (if nothing works out here in Europe) enroll into University, do a degree in Aviation or something like that (I am still not very sure what exactly I need because it is so different than here). So if I invested all that money into 4 years of university and the health insurance, do you think getting into a cockpit would be easy? Is it ultimately more rewarding than in the EU? And do I actually need to go to university or can I just choose any flight school, get my PPL etc etc. til I get all the clearances and 1,500 hours for a regional job? Maybe there is someone here who can tell me a bit about all this. Note that my first priority is still the Lufthansa School, but if that doesn't work out, you know what I want. USA vs EU? What would you say?
Regards,
Michael

No contest. The US is the biggest aviation market in the world. It'll cost you a quarter of what you might spend in Europe and your chances of getting an airline job are 99% vs maybe 20% in Europe. Its the best place to start a career, you can always come back to Europe with experience (If you really want to take the pay cut!)

Michael,

I applaud your researching a Plan B in case your Plan A with Lufthansa doesn't work out. I have a question about your quoted section above: Do you mean that flying for an airline isn't really what you're interested in ? Or just flying in Europe ?

M,

Generally the level of education in the United States is not as high as it is in Europe.
US airlines will gladly accept European degrees.
May I suggest you look into modulair training?
This means you don’t do everything at once but in steps.
Come to the US for a month and do your Private pilot license. Maybe the next year your Instrument rating and the next year your Commercial and Flight Instructor Ratings?
That would take you into your early 20’s and ready for entry level jobs while completing higher education in Germany.

If you attend a US University with a 141 school, you can gain a Restricted ATP with 1000 hours.

This in itself gets you on to the pay accelerator much earlier. Some airlines will only recruit from one of only 11 flight schools. These schools have good alumni connections and regular recruiting visits.

Go with US for prosperity - LH if you want a European quality of life.

Good luck.

The R-ATP rule only benefitted a handful of large training ‘universities’ and as such they are very, very expensive with generally just a mediocre degree.

​​​​​​​That is not entirely truthful.
They may have flow agreements or ‘garanteed’ interviews with certify schools that use it for their marketing but they certainly don’t limit their hiring.

Unless you actually want a degree, spending 4 years getting one in order to save 500 hours of flight time (6-12 months instructing) is kind of pointless.

I agree with you completely - but we are talking about flying, not degrees. Added to the fact that you have to be 21 to gain the R-ATP (23 for the full ATP). What are you going to do up until then.

How much is 6-12 months seniority worth?

I agree with expensive, ‘mediocre’ not so much. YMMV

Entirely truthful - but maybe incomplete, for brevity. I was referring to employment with an R-ATP, which would make you eligible for the Regionals (and possibly guaranteed flow after).

61.160(b) [1000-hour R-ATP] is available for all Universities with a 141 program. Many flying schools are linking with established (non-flight) Universities to take advantage of this. Only AABI Universities are accepted by some airlines for this path.

United

JetBlue

This is not intended as a recommendation for either of these airlines, or any of these schools (and I’m affiliated with one) - just outlining options that many are not aware of.

I really don't see your point. An 18 year old COULD get a degree to reduce their ATP hours from 1500 to 1000. But they'd be 22 by the time they graduate, they'd spend a **** load of money AND they'd still need to complete all their training up to CFI AND get 1000 hours.

Or they could train part 61, build 1500+ hours and take the (R)ATP check at age 21 under the terms of part 61.160(f). Personally I'd forget the degree, save the money and get the job a year earlier.

Let’s not forget the age requirements

• 23 for Unrestricted ATP
• 21 for R-ATP

So starting on a 4 year degree right after graduation from High School will put you at 21-22.

The writtens have similar eligibility requirements

Thanks for your post. I am slowly steering to the US indeed.

My dream: Airline Pilot. Where: Rather US due to family and I am kind of getting sick of the strict EU mentality and way of life that everything needs to be like that or that.

Interesting,
I wasnt thinking about higher education in Germany. I was thinking of the Western Michigan University (Aviation College) or even the United Aviate. Modular seems interesting though. But I thought I could move to the US and do everything at once. What do you think about integrated University Aviation focus ? Chances are higher getting faster into an airliner aint I right?

I thought it would be better. I heard Airlines like AA and even the regional once hire rather a university graduate.

What's your budget?

Michael,

Tried sending you a PM but it wouldn't go through. Something about your inbox being full ?

Hello again guys,
I have had some trouble with the restrictions of this forum, so sorry if anything is duplicated. To avoid these problems I am multiquoting now.
To bafanguy, I want to become an airline pilot, but probably not in Europe. I am kind of sick of the "This must be like that only" mentality of the Europeans. So close-minded.
To B2N2, well to be fair I like to do stuff straight to the point. If I decided for US, I won't be staying here for a while, especially not for University in GER. Besides, I was thinking of going to the Western Michigan Aviation College for a degree. I heard a lot of major carriers like AA rather take graduates. That was actually my second question. Does anyone know anything more specific?

Quoting all three of you, B2N2, rudestuff and awair. To be honest all these numbers like part 141 or the different phraseology are kind of odd to be since it is so much different. What I'd like to point out is that first I need to decide US or Europe. Later on we can get more in depth about those slightly different approaches. What I want to make clear is, that, based on my brothers recommendation, I should go to a university, preferably the Western Michigan, since it is close to him. There I could get a degree, later build up hours and apply for a regional or part 141? Or is it 161? What would you guys say about this way? I personally have nothing against going to just do the licenses all at my pace and save money, but what really makes me insecure is that all over the web I read: You will need a degree sooner or later etc. Guys, even if I don't have to, would you still recommend University as I've described? And what are my chances there (requirements, acceptance), since moving to a different continent isn't just an all day step.
Thanks for your support lads, appreciate it a lot! And sorry that I am too dumb to figure out this forum post restrictions haha.

Hi, yeah I am having trouble with the limits. I cleared everything. Could you perhaps try it again? If it doesn't work out, feel free to share your thoughts in the thread if it is fine for you.
Regards,
Michael.

Michael,

Other posters have pretty much said what I would've said in a PM.

As for the college degree, though, I'd think that in the long run having one is better than not having one. Getting one somewhere, somehow is likely easier now when you're young, footloose and have the energy to tackle the task (going to school while working can be done but seems much more difficult and complicated). While airlines seem to have dropped the degree requirement that may be temporary. They have long demonstrated they prefer candidates have one. So when hiring inevitably slows down due to any number of economic events, if there's any hiring going on, requirements will go up again leaving the non-degree people at the back of the line. The big problem is we just don't know when that'll happen.

Getting an aviation degree just lets you combine the degree with the flying. I don't know that airlines prefer that one to others.

Conventional wisdom usually says to get a non-aviation degree in a field that might allow you to work if/when the aviation career gets interrupted or ends. While this has an element of truth to it, I'm not sure I agree with that 100% of the time.

Wish I had better advice but it's all very complicated and requires the ability to foretell the future. I'm pretty bad at that.

Good luck and let us know what you decided.

As stated above, having a degree is better than not having one. However you don't need a degree and they are very expensive. You will spend half the money and get an airline job quicker without one. Time and money are usually the biggest factors. Your goal should be to get into the RHS as quick as possible. The first job isn't going to be a Major, it'll be a commuter airline: you'll need to turn up with an ATP and a pulse. You can always get a Degree part-time later on if you want to go for the Majors and still think you need one.

Some reading for you:

Part 61: Pilot certification.
Part 141: Pilot schools.

You can get your certificates under either Part 61 or 141, kind of like modular vs integrated. Kind of.

Airline jobs are flown under the rules of Part 135: Commuter and Part 121: Scheduled.

rudestuff,

Certainly no disputing what you said. It points out the reality of getting launched in an airline career these days.

Since Michael is new to this game and might be leaning toward a degree, I wanted to point out some angles he may not have considered.

If he can fly and get a degree on the side while doing it, he's a better man than I. The thought of that makes me want to go lie down on the couch.

No doubt, I didn't say I could do it either!
I guess the middle ground would be an Associate degree? That would give 3 years to get a 2 year degree and 1250 hours and still hit the target of R-ATP by age 21. 2 years away from a Batchelors.

One more question. Let's say, I did the aviation school which is 2 years long here. And I also had the greencard and was able to "pause" it. After my Frozen ATPL licence here, with a greencard, do you think, US Airlines would hire me? I know that they do not hire just foreign pilots without the legal right to live and work. But if I was a european pilot with a greencard? And would they be ok that I didn't have a university degree, since I am already a step further though? How are my chances?

Michael,

I can't answer all your questions. But I can say that US airlines certainly hire green card holders. You'd need an FAA ATPL in every case at an FAR Part 121 carrier. Some regionals have provided that for foreign nationals in the past but I don't know if they''re doing that now (I suspect not). Otherwise you'd have to get one on your own...a bit expensive. And you'd need the 1500 hours total time except for those universities offering reduced hour requirements for their graduates to get a restricted-ATPL. And the r-ATPL raises the question of whether airlines hire those with only a r-ATPL. Maybe some do but I don't know for sure.

The tricky part is that these parameters/requirements can change in short order so it's hard to give a solid answer that'll stand the test of time. Wish I knew more.

Thanks for your help. So in other words you say I could. But do you think I need to do a 4 year degree or should I just change EASA to FAA and start at a regional? If you can't answer that it is fine. I suspect that it would be "recommended" though not essential, right now at least. Would be a pretty big waste of money to do the 110000 Euro flight school and then a university degree over the pond... And this gets me back to the idea to just go to the US from the beginning...

What do you mean by 'aviation school' - if you mean learning to fly then that takes as long as you want it to take - anything from 6 months to never.
There us no such thing as a Frozen ATPL in the US. You're either a CPL or an ATP. fATPL is a European term meaning CPL/IR who's passed the ATPL exams (which require 6-12 months of study and are a big deal). The ATP exam in the US is one test which you can pass with a few days of study so its not such a big deal. A typical fATPL holder can be flying jets in Europe with 200 hours, but in the US before you can even touch a big jet you'll need an 'actual' ATP. That means 1500 hours which you'll need to get, most likely as a flight instructor. So no - you won't get hired straight out of flight school like you could in Europe. But unlike Europe, where you'll be getting rejection letter after rejection letter, possibly for years - in the US you'll be swallowed up into a well oiled machine. You'll do 2-3 years a a flight instructor, get your 1500 hours be almost guaranteed a spot at a commuter airline, maybe even better. Europe could get you into a Jet sooner, but possibly not at all because the entry jobs are so few and far between. The US definitely won't see you flying anything too exciting for the first 1500hrs, but you will be flying, and after 1500 hours there are infinitely more possibilities. Airlines are hiring greencard holders right now. All they care about is that you're legal and can fly. Plus of course, learning to fly in the US is 1/4 the price as you only need 50 hours in an airplane to get a CPL.

Thanks for your detailed question. So after receiving the fATPL in Europe and do all the necessary stuff in America (CPL etc), I assume I have to convert my licence into the FAA one? And as long as I get 1500 hours, you do not think that no university degree will be a problem (as it is now at least)?

Michael,

Yes, at the moment with a green card and 1500 hours, a regional would certainly be likely for you. A college degree is not currently mandatory in the USA.

Three years from now when you'd theoretically have 1500 hours, there's no one who can tell what the hiring environment will be. But, that's the roll of the dice for anyone starting to work toward an airline job.

As to whether you should start your career journey here or in the EU, I'd hesitate to definitively say. But I will opine that it sounds like you'd be on the road to a job faster (and cheaper) here vs the EU.

It's a tough decision, I realize. rudestuff laid it out very well.

Read it again. I'm not saying you should get an EASA fATPL AND an FAA cert. And certainly not spending 110k Euros! I'm saying only get your FAA certificates. Spend $30k instead of €110k. You'll have loads of time to study the EASA exams later if you want to convert. Once you have 500 hours in a multi crew airplane the conversion is one flight in a Sim. That's it. Frankly someone who has the right to live and work in the US and is considering flight training in Europe needs their head examined.

As for what I or anyone else thinks: it's your decision to make. You clearly dont realise how privileged you are, you're in the top 1% opportunity wise so to me its a no-brainer. Things can and do change in aviation but right now the biggest aviation market in the world is booming. Just do it.

Hmm agreed. So you would also say rather directly just spending 30k on flight school without "aviation college in University"? Regards.

Colleges with ‘Aviation degrees’ in the USA are very expensive.
You need a Plan B for a different career path of aviation doesn’t work out for you for any one of many reasons.
Get your PPL in the USA, convert to EASA so you can continue building hours slowly while going to university in Germany.
Also join a segelflug verein as for later when you go for your FAA CPL you can use as much as 50 hrs of glider time.
Cone to the US for a month once a year and you’ll have your CPL Multi engine and Instructor ratings and a European degree.
Now go to the US for an entry level job that allows you to build to 1500 hrs to get to the airlines.

You only need 100 hours in powered aircraft, so you could actually credit 150 hours of glider time!

Correct, however it’s difficult to meet all the other (training) requirements such as XC and night etc etc etc
PPL 50 hrs
IR 50 hrs
CPL SE/ME 50 hrs
Give or take 50 hrs of solo XC time building for some night and IFR time.
Realistically you can use about 50hrs glider time.

The FAA system is so much easier for cross-crediting. If I had to do it all again, instead of flying in circles I'd do 50 hours each in ASEL, ASES and Helicopter and tick off both the CPL(A) and CPL(H) boxes AND get enough float time to actually be employable...

Thanks for your help guys. Unfortunately I was told, when my brother started the greencard process, that even though I am minor, the processing time until getting a greencard is around 15 years. I'll definately need a plan B therefore. Should I take a visa all the time and randomly take flight hours and PPL exams a month a year in the US? Probably not. My other option would be, after I finish the 2 year EASA ATPL school from Lufthansa, to get towards America (hopefully with a greencard by then). I know I am asking a lot, but how can I imagine that? I'll do all the necessary pilot education here in Germany, fly around a bit until I am eligeble for any American airline and then move to the US? Would I need to convert to FAA Airline Licence or could I use my EASA one? I think that might be an idea too. And I know we cant fortell the future whether I'll need any degrees then (maybe there are some online schools that offer that?), but do you think it would be easy to convert all that and start a new pilot life in America?
Regards

This whole thing is a fantasy. I'm out.

I've also come across the option to study at a U.S. ATP CPL Flight School as an International student. For that I'll need an F1 or M1 visa. However, let's say I finish flight school and possibly even obtain a degree through a partner university, wouldn't I need a Greencard to be able to start working at a regional airline? Or to ask better, how can I get a greencard whilst being a student / graduant from the flight school with all necessary licences except a Greencard? Obviously, my brother's sponsored greencard won't be ready until 2037 probably.