Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.

Professional Pilot USA vs EU

Old 8th Apr 2023, 17:14
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Arrow Professional Pilot USA vs EU

Dear Members of this forum,
I am a German citizen with the ability to get a greencard due to my family. I am still a minor and at the last month of highschool. Now, I have passed the first exam of the European Flight Academy for Lufthansa. However, if I am not accepted I am thinking about moving to the US. I know there are a lot of differences and a lot is based on "personal preference". I know that here in Europe I can be in a shiny A320 within 3 years with less than 500 hours. But this is not what I really beg for. If I chose to go to the US, I'd have to blast my ass of getting 1500 hours to be eligeble for a regional carrier. And how are the chances of being accepted? My idea was to (if nothing works out here in Europe) enroll into University, do a degree in Aviation or something like that (I am still not very sure what exactly I need because it is so different than here). So if I invested all that money into 4 years of university and the health insurance, do you think getting into a cockpit would be easy? Is it ultimately more rewarding than in the EU? And do I actually need to go to university or can I just choose any flight school, get my PPL etc etc. til I get all the clearances and 1,500 hours for a regional job? Maybe there is someone here who can tell me a bit about all this. Note that my first priority is still the Lufthansa School, but if that doesn't work out, you know what I want. USA vs EU? What would you say?
Regards,
Michael
Michimax17 is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2023, 18:16
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Posts: 4,070
Received 47 Likes on 21 Posts
No contest. The US is the biggest aviation market in the world. It'll cost you a quarter of what you might spend in Europe and your chances of getting an airline job are 99% vs maybe 20% in Europe. Its the best place to start a career, you can always come back to Europe with experience (If you really want to take the pay cut!)
rudestuff is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2023, 20:09
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,433
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes on 18 Posts
Originally Posted by Michimax17
I am still a minor and at the last month of highschool. Now, I have passed the first exam of the European Flight Academy for Lufthansa. However, if I am not accepted I am thinking about moving to the US. I know that here in Europe I can be in a shiny A320 within 3 years with less than 500 hours. But this is not what I really beg for.
Michael,

I applaud your researching a Plan B in case your Plan A with Lufthansa doesn't work out. I have a question about your quoted section above: Do you mean that flying for an airline isn't really what you're interested in ? Or just flying in Europe ?
bafanguy is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2023, 20:59
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: GA, USA
Posts: 3,308
Likes: 0
Received 69 Likes on 33 Posts
M,

Generally the level of education in the United States is not as high as it is in Europe.
US airlines will gladly accept European degrees.
May I suggest you look into modulair training?
This means you don’t do everything at once but in steps.
Come to the US for a month and do your Private pilot license. Maybe the next year your Instrument rating and the next year your Commercial and Flight Instructor Ratings?
That would take you into your early 20’s and ready for entry level jobs while completing higher education in Germany.
B2N2 is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2023, 02:56
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NA
Posts: 249
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
If you attend a US University with a 141 school, you can gain a Restricted ATP with 1000 hours.

This in itself gets you on to the pay accelerator much earlier. Some airlines will only recruit from one of only 11 flight schools. These schools have good alumni connections and regular recruiting visits.

Go with US for prosperity - LH if you want a European quality of life.

Good luck.
awair is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2023, 07:11
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: GA, USA
Posts: 3,308
Likes: 0
Received 69 Likes on 33 Posts
If you attend a US University with a 141 school, you can gain a Restricted ATP with 1000 hours.
The R-ATP rule only benefitted a handful of large training ‘universities’ and as such they are very, very expensive with generally just a mediocre degree.

Some airlines will only recruit from one of only 11 flight schools.
​​​​​​​That is not entirely truthful.
They may have flow agreements or ‘garanteed’ interviews with certify schools that use it for their marketing but they certainly don’t limit their hiring.
B2N2 is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2023, 12:14
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Posts: 4,070
Received 47 Likes on 21 Posts
Originally Posted by awair
If you attend a US University with a 141 school, you can gain a Restricted ATP with 1000 hours.

This in itself gets you on to the pay accelerator much earlier. Some airlines will only recruit from one of only 11 flight schools. These schools have good alumni connections and regular recruiting visits.

Go with US for prosperity - LH if you want a European quality of life.

Good luck.
Unless you actually want a degree, spending 4 years getting one in order to save 500 hours of flight time (6-12 months instructing) is kind of pointless.
rudestuff is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2023, 13:24
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NA
Posts: 249
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by rudestuff
Unless you actually want a degree, spending 4 years getting one in order to save 500 hours of flight time (6-12 months instructing) is kind of pointless.
I agree with you completely - but we are talking about flying, not degrees. Added to the fact that you have to be 21 to gain the R-ATP (23 for the full ATP). What are you going to do up until then.

How much is 6-12 months seniority worth?
awair is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2023, 13:43
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NA
Posts: 249
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by B2N2
The R-ATP rule only benefitted a handful of large training ‘universities’ and as such they are very, very expensive with generally just a mediocre degree.


That is not entirely truthful.
They may have flow agreements or ‘garanteed’ interviews with certify schools that use it for their marketing but they certainly don’t limit their hiring.
I agree with expensive, ‘mediocre’ not so much. YMMV

Entirely truthful - but maybe incomplete, for brevity. I was referring to employment with an R-ATP, which would make you eligible for the Regionals (and possibly guaranteed flow after).

61.160(b) [1000-hour R-ATP] is available for all Universities with a 141 program. Many flying schools are linking with established (non-flight) Universities to take advantage of this. Only AABI Universities are accepted by some airlines for this path.

United

JetBlue

This is not intended as a recommendation for either of these airlines, or any of these schools (and I’m affiliated with one) - just outlining options that many are not aware of.
awair is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2023, 20:47
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Posts: 4,070
Received 47 Likes on 21 Posts
Originally Posted by awair
I agree with you completely - but we are talking about flying, not degrees. Added to the fact that you have to be 21 to gain the R-ATP (23 for the full ATP). What are you going to do up until then.

How much is 6-12 months seniority worth?
I really don't see your point. An 18 year old COULD get a degree to reduce their ATP hours from 1500 to 1000. But they'd be 22 by the time they graduate, they'd spend a **** load of money AND they'd still need to complete all their training up to CFI AND get 1000 hours.

Or they could train part 61, build 1500+ hours and take the (R)ATP check at age 21 under the terms of part 61.160(f). Personally I'd forget the degree, save the money and get the job a year earlier.
rudestuff is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2023, 18:58
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: GA, USA
Posts: 3,308
Likes: 0
Received 69 Likes on 33 Posts
Let’s not forget the age requirements
  • 23 for Unrestricted ATP
  • 21 for R-ATP

So starting on a 4 year degree right after graduation from High School will put you at 21-22.
B2N2 is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2023, 20:59
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London (FAA CPL/CFI)
Posts: 277
Received 8 Likes on 7 Posts
The writtens have similar eligibility requirements
ahwalk01 is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2023, 23:28
  #13 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rudestuff
No contest. The US is the biggest aviation market in the world. It'll cost you a quarter of what you might spend in Europe and your chances of getting an airline job are 99% vs maybe 20% in Europe. Its the best place to start a career, you can always come back to Europe with experience (If you really want to take the pay cut!)
Thanks for your post. I am slowly steering to the US indeed.
Michimax17 is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2023, 23:29
  #14 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My dream: Airline Pilot. Where: Rather US due to family and I am kind of getting sick of the strict EU mentality and way of life that everything needs to be like that or that.
Michimax17 is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2023, 23:31
  #15 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Interesting,
I wasnt thinking about higher education in Germany. I was thinking of the Western Michigan University (Aviation College) or even the United Aviate. Modular seems interesting though. But I thought I could move to the US and do everything at once. What do you think about integrated University Aviation focus ? Chances are higher getting faster into an airliner aint I right?
Michimax17 is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2023, 23:33
  #16 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I thought it would be better. I heard Airlines like AA and even the regional once hire rather a university graduate.
Michimax17 is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2023, 05:02
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Posts: 4,070
Received 47 Likes on 21 Posts
What's your budget?
rudestuff is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2023, 07:38
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,433
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes on 18 Posts
Michael,

Tried sending you a PM but it wouldn't go through. Something about your inbox being full ?

Last edited by bafanguy; 12th Apr 2023 at 14:59.
bafanguy is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2023, 23:46
  #19 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bafanguy
Michael,

I applaud your researching a Plan B in case your Plan A with Lufthansa doesn't work out. I have a question about your quoted section above: Do you mean that flying for an airline isn't really what you're interested in ? Or just flying in Europe ?
Originally Posted by B2N2
M,

Generally the level of education in the United States is not as high as it is in Europe.
US airlines will gladly accept European degrees.
May I suggest you look into modulair training?
This means you don’t do everything at once but in steps.
Come to the US for a month and do your Private pilot license. Maybe the next year your Instrument rating and the next year your Commercial and Flight Instructor Ratings?
That would take you into your early 20’s and ready for entry level jobs while completing higher education in Germany.
Hello again guys,
I have had some trouble with the restrictions of this forum, so sorry if anything is duplicated. To avoid these problems I am multiquoting now.
To bafanguy, I want to become an airline pilot, but probably not in Europe. I am kind of sick of the "This must be like that only" mentality of the Europeans. So close-minded.
To B2N2, well to be fair I like to do stuff straight to the point. If I decided for US, I won't be staying here for a while, especially not for University in GER. Besides, I was thinking of going to the Western Michigan Aviation College for a degree. I heard a lot of major carriers like AA rather take graduates. That was actually my second question. Does anyone know anything more specific?
Michimax17 is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2023, 23:52
  #20 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by awair
If you attend a US University with a 141 school, you can gain a Restricted ATP with 1000 hours.

This in itself gets you on to the pay accelerator much earlier. Some airlines will only recruit from one of only 11 flight schools. These schools have good alumni connections and regular recruiting visits.

Go with US for prosperity - LH if you want a European quality of life.

Good luck.
Originally Posted by rudestuff
Unless you actually want a degree, spending 4 years getting one in order to save 500 hours of flight time (6-12 months instructing) is kind of pointless.
Originally Posted by B2N2
The R-ATP rule only benefitted a handful of large training ‘universities’ and as such they are very, very expensive with generally just a mediocre degree.


That is not entirely truthful.
They may have flow agreements or ‘garanteed’ interviews with certify schools that use it for their marketing but they certainly don’t limit their hiring.
Quoting all three of you, B2N2, rudestuff and awair. To be honest all these numbers like part 141 or the different phraseology are kind of odd to be since it is so much different. What I'd like to point out is that first I need to decide US or Europe. Later on we can get more in depth about those slightly different approaches. What I want to make clear is, that, based on my brothers recommendation, I should go to a university, preferably the Western Michigan, since it is close to him. There I could get a degree, later build up hours and apply for a regional or part 141? Or is it 161? What would you guys say about this way? I personally have nothing against going to just do the licenses all at my pace and save money, but what really makes me insecure is that all over the web I read: You will need a degree sooner or later etc. Guys, even if I don't have to, would you still recommend University as I've described? And what are my chances there (requirements, acceptance), since moving to a different continent isn't just an all day step.
Thanks for your support lads, appreciate it a lot! And sorry that I am too dumb to figure out this forum post restrictions haha.
Michimax17 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.