Brexit and UK licences
 

Hi all,

I saw this PDF on the website of EASA by searching "brexit".
Had you ever heard of this ? Would it mean that all ATPL licences recently taken in UK would be invalid in EU states ?

Thanks a lot

Not true. ICAO produces Standards and Recommended Practices from which individual member states develop legislation. EASA is in a rather strange position, being neither an ICAO member state nor a regulator but simply a rule maker.

Post Brexit, a UK-issued licence will be valid to fly a UK registered aircraft anywhere in the EU in exactly the same way that, for example, an FAA licence is valid to fly a US registered aircraft. Since a UK-based operator will not be "established or residing in the Community", there will no requirement to hold an EASA licence. The difference is that a UK-issued licence will not be valid to fly non-UK registered aircraft.

It is also worth considering that a UK-issued LAPL, being a sub-ICAO licence, may not be valid outside the UK after Brexit. The main reason to hold an LAPL is the less stringent medical requirements and, given the self-declaration process for a UK PPL medical combined with the inevitable removal of the distinction between EASA and Annex II aircraft, we will probably see the LAPL disappear.

HI Billie Bob,
I find this a little concerning as someone who is about to go through an integrated ATPL course with a well established English school - does this mean I won't be able to go and work for a European carrier coming out the other end of it? do you think it would be better to get an EASA based licence from say FTE Jerez for the ability to work in many more places or do you think that nothing much will change in this industry?

Regards

It depends entirely on the final decision on Brexit. If the UK maintains some agreed position of membership/compliance such as that 'enjoyed' by Norway, Iceland and Switzerland then nothing will change. However, if the final decision is to cut all ties with EASA, the UK becomes a "third country", just like the US. If there is a transition period, this would be the time to transfer your state of licence issue but bear in mind the "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" and it is still possible that we will reach the so-called cliff edge on 31 March 2019. This being the case, there is now less than 11 months to be certain of obtaining an EASA licence with a UK-approved ATO.

However, IMHO the chances of the 'cliff edge' scenario are about the same as Brexit being entirely abandoned and it is more likely that some weasel-worded compromise will be reached. The whole Brexit farce will have cost billions and the UK will have gained nothing but lost its seat at the decision-making table.

My money's on brexit not happening at all...

It will happen in name only

Yeah, if they were serious it could have been done and dusted ages ago.

thanks for giving me some confidence back in that one guys!! i have had 24 hours of slight turmoil over this one especially as its gonna cost £100k to get a licence which might not be worth so much!!!

Would anybody advise going to FTE Jerez for an EASA licence still or needn't I worry so much?

And what about the ATPL theory ?
I'm currently doing it in England and I have nearly finished, do you think I would still be able to do the CPL/IR in another country which issues EASA licenses ?

CES - yes, you will.Nothing's going to happen that soon....

What's the confusion - that's future pain! :) Until UK leaves EASA, no problem. If it does, transfer your licence to an EASA state. it's not like you won't get plemty of warning.

Depends upon whether you are more likely to work for a UK or a European AOC I suspect.

Any news on this?
Those of us who are doing our ATPL exams under UK CAA are a bit concerned that suddenly those exams are no longer valid.

I don't know if this is what's going to happen, I'm just assuming the worst case scenario.

The thing is, I have only 4 more exams to do, wich I will probably have passed by the end of this year. My fear is that in the middle of my IR training, those exams will no longer by EASA compliant!

Well, let's hope they are reasonable.
If I had to do the 14 exams again I would commit suicide. :ooh:

It would be worse for those pilots working on an european airline with an UK license...

Its actually relatively easy and sorted with 300 euros to the Irish CAA after filling out 2 forms if you are flying for an EU airline with a UK lic. You can even now get a UK national license when you transfer.

I suspect they will not be reasonable and if you are caught in the middle of it all you in for a world of pain.

I say this as a UK national that supports exit. And it won't be the UK that causes the problems.

Maybe your point of view is a little skewed...

UK has no say what EASA will do after exit or what they will accept

There is a lot of people that takes the exams under the UK CAA. Ingoring that all this people got his exams done under an EASA member (at that moment at least) would be terrible.
The "window" solution sounds like the most probable outcome to me.

Yes with the approval of their CAA's

You can do what you want but not having an escape route is not a wise idea with anything to do with aviation.

Personally I would be talking to Irish CAA and asking the question if you could transfer your exam results and medical etc over to them. What you don't want to happen is to be trapped in the middle of training and not in the system you need.

We don't do probable outcomes in commercial aviation. Either its going to be a safe landing or its a go-around.

To be honest the country differences hasn't really changed much, there are still pages of country differences between the different members. RT is still different as well.

This is more fundamental, its at the whim of people that consider political principle more important than an individuals circumstances. All you will be is collateral damage.

I can't agree, it's a different scenario. I'ts like if you have done all 14 exams before Quadrant, and when you start your ME-IR training the CAA tells you "Sorry, there is a new system going on, you will have to sit all exams again".

In fact, the most reasonable would be: if you get your ground exams certificate when the UK is still on EASA, that certificate will remain valid for any EASA country.

I agree with you in the idea of transfering the results to another CAA (this would solve everything), but I never heard this could be done. Perhaps someone can help with this query?

Yes, this Brexit thing is a bloody nightmare.
I live in the UK, hold an EASA ATPL issued by the UK CAA. So far so good.
I fly a Portuguese reg aircraft, and do my recurrents in the US at Flight Safety.
Many of my colleagues have UK ATPLs as the examiners in the US have authority for a few NAAs (UK, Belgian, French, German...)
I don't know if they have Irish rights. :/
Yes, these questions are in the office....

It's just a bloody mess.

I don't have a clue about transferring, my exams were done under JAR.

It will be dependant of the CAA's opinion who your transferring to. Again under EASA there is a huge variation on what CAA's will allow. I would suspect that you have zero chance with French or German CAA's. The Irish though seem to have run a common sense approach for a number of years which is why I suggested them. I would email them and see what they say. The worst ting they can say is no. I would like to expect all courses complete before the exit date would remain valid but the stakeholders statement currently doesn't imply that they will be. You won't be the only one in the same situation.

The sooner you start asking the questions the sooner a solution can be found. A solution before the exit date which you have to take as 29th March next year will be a lot less complicated than one after. Also remember there will be a run on people doing this and it does take time to do the SOLI transfer of medical records and license information and you have potentially the whole of Easyjet with UK licenses going to do the same thing.

I've been sending a barrage of emails: to the spanish CAA (AESA), to the IAA, and to CATS (my ground school).
The only answer I got was from this last one: "Your exams with be valid in any EASA approved country. ".

I've been also reading about brexit, and apparently there is a "transition period" aranged between UK and EU that lasts to december 2020. I don't know what this period i'ts totally ignored in the EASA document.

I will soon become an international law expert :}

There is nothing so far confirmed a Transition period has been talked about but until its legally binding and approved by both sides I wouldn't bet on it.

Also don't touch the Spanish CAA with a poo pole, everything takes months to sort out and many many brick walls to bang your head against also its one of the expensive authorities. I have had several mates transfer away from them.

CATS don't have a clue either what's going to happen same as the rest of us. They have to say that other wise nobody in their right mind would start training with them or any other UK approved provider for the next year if the person intends to use their license in euroland.

Believe me, I know this very well... but since I will do my practical training here, I got no choice.

you doing your practical training in Spain?

Yes I live here, I'm hour building and when I finish my ATPLs I will start my ME-IR and CPL

Edit: hopefully

I would get the exams and Cpl course out the way ASAP and get the CPL issued before 29th March 2019. Which point the ATPL exams will just be a time limit on your records. Then MEP and IR will just be additional ratings on the CPL and there will be no time pressure to complete them apart from the normal IR time limit.

I think that for the MEIR they will ask for the ATPL exams passes (even if you have a CPL), since you can have the CPL with only the CPL exams (no instrumental training).

No the exam credits are held on the CPL as active for a given period. Well that's the way it works at other CAA's. But you have a point the Spanish may have a different view.

There is a difference between CPL issue and adding ratings. IN theory you could transfer to IAA as soon as you have the CPL in your hand. Personally that's what I would do. MEP and IR ratings can be done in any member state because they are licnese additions.

When the transfer goes through there is no mention where you did the exams just when they were completed.

Not a bad idea... CPL can be done in one month.

Sorry but this is completely false! I am transfering my licence from the UK CAA to the Spanish CAA and is the Brits who are delaying the process. It take several weeks to get a response from the UK CAA whereas if I sent an email to the Spanish CAA they reply me in a few minutes. The UK CAA is currently working in 14 working days turnover... (even the Spanish are asking me what is going on).

Update:
I got answers from the IAA and EASA.

IAA: We don't know anything yet, EASA will give us instructions for this.
EASA: The european commission is on negotiations, EASA is no party to this negotiations. We don't know.

Both have seemed to ignore that the exam related question is more a legal issue than anything related to brexit negotiations.