Stop moaning and P2F or get out
 

I am sick of hearing all these sob storys of people waiting years and not getting an interview and that all the money they invested is wasted, its quite simple really if your not prepared to P2F or buy a type rating then you should never have started in the 1st place.

this industry is for the rich, and if you do not fall under this status then dont bother trying because you will just be another person on PPRUNE moaning about how its so hard and that you give up and cant get a job.

the truth hurts but this is the way it is, and it really upsets me when I hear of all the sacrifices people have made to get entry level qualifications but cant afford to go any further.

the hopes and dreams of flying a Boeing or Airbus are just that dreams, the reality is that it does get quite boaring after a few months.

this may sound harsh on the people in the boat of MECIR with no type ratings but I am affraid to say that everything i write is true.

The purpose of this post is that perhaps a few people who are thinking of getting in to aviation realise what they are up against and they re-consider before reuining there life's with lack of money and frustration.

to make it all the way you need at a very minimum
ATPL with high pass marks and no re-sit's
MECIR with at least 1 renewal
TR either 737 or 320
P2F 500 hours on type
lots of private multi time
total investment 180,000

giving you around 1,000 hours and 500 hours on type rating going in to your first interview and maybe just maybe you may have a chance :D

And you're an Aussie??!!

I can (almost) forgive the European wannabes for attitudes like that, because there's zero GA, a bare handful of turboprop and FI jobs remaining, there are dozens of B737/A320 operators to apply to, and the only people hiring are predatory lo-co's anyway. It's far from an ideal situation (in terms of safety as well as T&C's) but it is the situation those guys face.

Coming from someone like an Aussie or American, in a country where there's heaps of real entry level jobs out there for those who are prepared to get off their ass and go find them, your attitude makes me bloody sick.

In addition to which it's a very small industry down under, you've only really got a couple of airlines to apply to even if you did have a TR and some paid time on type. Screw up that one interview and you really are screwed forever, because you have a mark on your back and no turboprop or GA operator will touch you if you're 700 TT / 500 P2F on jets. Very very risky strategy indeed :=

I really hope I get to be a chief pilot one day, so I can give your P2F ass an interview, and then crush you like the stupid, arrogant, naive, industry destroying little wannabe that you are, and then kick you out of my office in tears while I am handing out the jobs to people who manned up, got off their ass, went bush and learned to fly properly for a few years.

Clown. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Luke Skytoddler....

...

:D

What he said!
 

Luke Sky Toddler - spot on!

why could you be in tears when you kicked me out of your office?? why could you even give me an interview in the 1st place if you have read P2F on my resume? jokes on you for bringing in a P2F for interview!

just for the record, I dont agree with P2F but it is very sad to read a lot of post's of PPRuNE about pilots losing all there money and no job for them.

the post was mearly supposed to shout that unless you could P2F you many be just another person posting on PPRUNE about how you lost your money and wish you never started your training, goodbye house, wife car etc etc:ugh:

Ooo another juicy p2f discussion coming up me thinks. I'll get the popcorn ready.

Carry on gentlemen.

I dont see how P2F can put you at a disadvantage as airlines set a minimum experince on type requirement so the fact that you would go out of your way and pay thousands of dollars to meet there requirement to me shows absoloute dedication to wanting to get your foot in the door.

I know of several cases where people have gone on and done a P2F course and get jobs very soon after finishing.

I dont know these people personally, but I have read a lot of threads of people who have not P2F and are leaving/giving up and are seriously depressed which is very upsetting to read.

P2F does seriously suck, but how else are you supposed to meet the criteria of an airline?

one of the big questions of newly qualified pilots when they are turned away by the airlines is how to I meet the minima?

P2F Vs 5 long years in a low paid GA Job

add up the extra income you would get on an airline salary over 4 years take away the investment you made to P2F then put it against a GA job over 4 years and see what the differnce comes in at...I think you will be surprized

Has it not occurred that when airlines set a minimum on type requirement they do not want a newly qualified pilot? If they did want a newly qualified pilot, they'd set up a SSTR or enter into an agreement with an FTO to take on their graduates. Some may even still bond for a TR.

The reason they do it is because they know that there are experienced job-hunting pilots out there who will apply. It isn't to feed the P2F frenzy. People like you have misread the situation and thought that this is the case. They then proceed to try and jump the queue by buying experience, usually at an airline that is notorious for below-the-norm standards.

It is simple supply and demand. There are experienced pilots on the market due to the lack of economic prosperity. If airlines were expanding like they were 6 or so years ago, they'd be taking on newly qualified people as that pool wouldn't exist as less airlines would be going out of business.

Just because you are qualified does not mean you are owed a job. This is true in every single sector out there.

The way I see it, P2f or not, you need luck(a lot of it) or connections.
I know of several guys that graduated flight school, and are hired by their national career. Others that paid for 500 hours P2F, and joined Qatar airways as fast track second officers, and many others that have been unemployed for a very long time.

Even with p2f programs, you could end up at home.
500 hours make you eligible for VERY few airlines out there.
Connections are what will be helpful.

I have seen with my own eyes, guys that are very knowledgable, passionate, and that would make extremely good pilots, sitting at home, whilst others that have had everything easy, and dont give any interest, or put bare minimum effort, these guys are 320 first officers.

It is what it is.
This is and has been the case for a long time now.
Aviation is a very cruel, unfair, and unforgiving industry.

Very true. I am aware that 500 P2F will not gaurentee you a job, but your more likley to be hired than the likes of someone with a frozen ATPL, MECIR and 250 hours on a PA28 or 172. the message from the start was that a frozen ATPL and IR are not enough these days. the real tradgedy with Airline jobs is that the longer P2F is around the worse the salary's will become and working condition's.

So tell me Learjet you little Einstein, since you obviously have it all sussed out and you know so much about how the industry works in Oz ...

1) What country and what operator are you going to buy your hours from, and

2) What airlines are you going to apply to once you've finished?

:hmm:

Weather yu payed 2 fli or not i wood not contimplait employing yu until yu did somefing about you're apalling spellin and gramer! :rolleyes:

Luke raises a very good point. My European A330/320/1 airline has been recruiting on and off since 2006/07. I am not aware of any P2F people being successful in getting their foot in the door let alone being called for interview. The successful people were mostly 250 hour Oxford/Jerez recruits, some modular, experienced ones from FR, Aer Arran, Cityjet and a few Easy and other regional TP operators. All proper airlines with high standards of training. I believe it to be the same across the other national mainstream operators.

Go off to Eaglejet et al if you wish but mark my words you will spend the rest of your career going to and fro from each tinpot airline on temporary contract if your lucky. As soon as you get settled you will get shafted either by the contract agency, the local CAA wanting ex pats out or the airline itself. You will struggle to raise a mortgage in any civilised country as you will not be full time employed.

Sounds great, where do I sign?

Weather yu payed 2 fli or not i wood not contimplait employing yu until yu did somefing about you're apalling spellin and gramer!

Sorry was this post supposed to be about yourself?

you will hardly hear about any P2F pilots on hear as we are all to busy flying planes and getting on with our duties to be on PPRUNE bitching like 3 years olds

face facts, P2F is going to take over and there is nothing you can do about it...live with it:ok:

Luke I am not an airline pilot this post as I have said a number of times now is to stop people thinking they can get in to airlines with a MECIR and there training hours.

I finish my training in June and have a job flying the Citation 550 out of Cambridge UK for corporate travel.

I would personally hate to be in the airline industry from what I have heard working conditions are like:sad:

I should read the whole thread sometimes.

Just remember these words, if your job is starting in June then you don't have a job yet.

Learjet you are talking utter crap!!

City Flyer I admire the way you have done it and I wish it could be like that for all cases.

SinBin your attitude towards me is poor and I hope your never on my RT hand side on the flight deck

Dan the weegie yes job does not start until june but aircraft is owned by family so its a formality.

So let me get this right.

-You finish training in June
-You have a job lined up on a C550, so I assume you'll have 250hrs at the end of June?
-The only reason you have this job is because of family
-You're preaching P2F or gtfo.

If my assumptions are correct, I think it's safe to ignore you and say that you must practice what you preach. If I'm wrong, where did you get your hours?

Learjet,
Although I understand your criticism against those moaning about their failures in some way, but still I think they require some sympathy, as P2F is one of the reasons they actually failed. There's nothing wrong with people telling their life experience, which actually you can use for your own benefit - not making their mistakes.

Neither do I agree with the fact, that flying is for rich. It's not if you plan everything correctly, and P2F is not something you inevitably have to do to succeed.

I also do agree with City Flyer about the maturity. You can buy experience with P2F, but you can't buy maturity. Because its not only about experience in the cockpit, but also about experience in life. Seriously, I would rather trust a pilot in late fourties who got his place in the cockpit through long and hard work, searching for opportunities and making small steps to his career, rather than a young guy in his twenties, who got experience through P2F. No offense to anyone. I hope that experienced guys will back me up here, that sometimes when it comes to important decisions, its not only about knowing the handbook, but also about knowing life. So - the more responsible job is, the more mature you have to be to do it.

pudoc - I dont preach P2F, I was looking through a lot of threads of people distrote, angry and had lost a lot of money and given up hope, some saying ive been waiting up to 5-6 years and no sniff of a job interview.

it would seem these guys would have perhaps had employment by now if they had P2F. so the message P2F or get out was valid, some people don't see my point of view, but perhaps they dont care for new pilots getting in to avaition.

I am fortunate to be able to work for family, but that is the only reason I trained in the 1st place, I had a good job before I left for Australia, however I have learned more about this industry on PPRUNE than anywhere else and my thoughts on this thread are a collection of what I have read over a few months.

Actually bud, what you know of the industry at the moment is exactly nothing.

You don't have RHS, which means you don't even begin to know the first thing about the job, a friend of mine would tell you quite comfortably that at the moment you're less than useless because you're not even through basic training, when you get your rating you'll be effing useless and after a couple of hundred hours you'll get upgraded to being just plain useless. When you reach "satisfactory" you'll be close to being ready for LHS.

You need to have a bit of humility, it will help you in that tiny cockpit you'll be flying because when Daddy/Uncle isn't there to look after you there is only you and the Captain, trust me that's the hardest part of the job :).

So many guys that have little experience say they see the big picture but really they know the square root of FA. Start understanding that's where you are and you'll be well set at the start of your career.

I stand by what I say, you have a job for as long as you're flying and being paid, just because it's family doesn't mean it's secure, only that you're not going to be pushed out by someone Peeing to Eff :D

Not everything is hours
 

I would like to state firstly that anyone who has a job lined up on a biz jet before he has even finished training shouldn't be telling everyone else how the industry works.

After starting aviation late and taking literally years to land my first job I have finally made it to a position where I have some input into hiring and firing. I saw a Resume yesterday that was such a mess I had to ask if it was serious. The boss said it was and he had interviewed the guy as a walk in. We were actually looking for someone and he rolled in and asked for a job. He was ferrying a plane through our area and had stopped for lunch. He later sent in his Resume which unfortunately got him un hired. Now this guy seems capable of doing ferries but his written skills were so sub standard we wouldn't be able to let him work commercial ops.

Also got a resume from a guy who had paid for multi engine piston time on a type we operate. We know he paid cause it was all ICUS and from a company that is well known for the practice. He could fly the plane but his situational awareness and radio work were poor. He didn't get a job. We took on a 300 hour guy who could spell, spoke without saying the word like 15 times a sentence and wore clothing you would expect for an interview.

All this is leading to the point that having the minimum 500 or whatever hours on type wont get you a job if your not a good all round package. Now some P2f ers will get a job at the end cause they will have the all round package but couldn't get that first break. The majority will be where they were before because maybe it was the personal attribute side that was holding them back. Not the low hours.

I started my CPL training with about 20 others and I think 6 of us have flying jobs. Two of those 6 had jobs lined up before they started. I asked one of my old instructors a couple of years ago if he knew who of us would land a job and who wouldn't. He reeled off the names of the 6 who I mentioned before and only one guy he thought would be hired wasn't. He said they know within the first 6 weeks who will make it.

Dan for someone acusing me of knowing nothing of the industry your claim that there is no RT or LT hand seat in the cockpit says it all.

I have heard all I need to hear, thankyou and good bye:D:D

Well it is to be hoped that June is indeed the month you complete your training, and not the name of the Captain you will be flying with!

Do you remember this from last months offering?

:hmm:

grow up mate, that was one of the best topics on PPRUNE in months, I am a hero in most people eyes for starting that thread, so the jokes on you for mocking it:D

Oh the irony!
Well, on the 02nd February (83 days ago) you stated that:
The previous day (1st February) you mentioned that: Now only 12 weeks later, you have seemingly shortened this course by a whole 6 months, and obtained a job on a business jet in the UK. 1st solo, to Citation co-pilot in 4 months! How could you not be my hero? :rolleyes:

Impressive.

Grow up people.

Sorry, must remember not to feed the heroes.... sorry I mean trolls.

Having a crack here this guy is hilarious (and how the hell do you solo at 60 hours?? Anybody picked that up? At that point, you should just give up flying altogether!!)

here there looking for a new cheif pilot at a major airline, what's that you want me to lay down the law and fire people who dont see things your way? well I aint that dude bye bye baby bye bye......whats that? you've changed your mind and your now looking for a leader of men if so facto women too...where do I sign

Reading the last offering, I have to ask. Are you on drugs?

I am not sure if it is the inane ramblings, the inept spelling and grammer, or just the simple implausibility of your posts, that suggests you are just a little bit of a fantasist. That, or perhaps a bored 15 year old!

I have to wonder at the qualification for all this advice you give out.
31/01/1201/02/1201/02/12
01/02/1203/02/1223/04/1223/04/12Obviously I didn't bother rehashing your rather pubescent views on female pilots as they have clearly established your "hero" status in your own mind.

There are some glaring contradictions in your short posting history. You are supposedly in the unusual position of being able to fly for your family, with the job on completion of training simply "a formality." That does rather beg the question why a family with the financial resources to operate a Cessna 550 apparently skimped on your education. Rather odd as well that they would send you to (with all due respect) Melbourne, to do a pilots licence that would not seem to be of much use to you in the United Kingdom. However all that aside, if you only started training because of the family connections and guarantees, why were you claiming on the 01st of February, that you were all ready to quit because there were no jobs at the end of training?

As I read on I just keep LMAO here. Well put B. I was wondering why nobody had pointed out he was doing CASA training to come back and work in EASA land. Not sure about the existence of Australian registered aircraft in the U.K., but then again...
And Mr Learjet-45 (love that aircraft) who is going to fly a Cessna 550 at the end, remember that everything you say on here can be and will be used again you in the court of pprune. Yes everything you write has been recorded, and we as members, all have access to it. Dream on dreamer.

So much win in this one... Its like watching a train wreck... with full knowledge of whats going to happen before the first wagon even leaves the track.

Pure comedy gold!!

Wtf is going on?

I hope you are able to work this through, and that your licence / job works out for you. Unfortunately if you come across in person in the same way as you do here (admitting that the written word in this context can easily lead to misunderstanding), my fear is you may struggle somewhat.

Good luck.

Learjet-45
 

http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads...meh.ro9158.jpg

I'm assuming OP is a troll, it means I don't feel like a bad person when I laugh at him.

This... is a 24 carat thread!