36 And my dream has died.
 

I came here when I was 32 and I couldn’t afford training then. Four years later things and nothings changed. I sat and watched the planes take off at Heathrow today and realised my dreams died.

Lack of finance and unimaginable costs have prevented me from achieving what I always wanted to be.

light weight!
 

4 years? Try 8 years just to get a CPL issued back when you needed 700h to get a CAA one! This included 4 years on and off unemployed and low wage jobs in the 1990s recession when BAE was laying off 5000 Aerospace engineers a month and my fellow Aero Eng students had just graduated.

You just happened to start dreaming at the beginning of a recession.

Even if you manage 12 h flying a year in any heavier than air machine the dream can still live on!

Give up if you want to but perseverance can pay off even if it takes 10 years longer than you wanted.

How about this chap -

In 1831, Abraham Lincoln failed in a business venture.

In 1832, Lincoln was defeated as a candidate for the state legislature.

In 1833, Lincoln failed once again in another business venture.

In 1835, Lincoln's fiancee died, shattering him.

In 1836, Lincoln suffered a nervous breakdown.

In 1843, Lincoln was defeated as a candidate for the U.S. Congress.

In 1848, Lincoln once again was defeated as a candidate for the U.S. Congress.

In 1855, Lincoln was defeated as a candidate for the U.S. Senate.

In 1856, Lincoln was defeated as a candidate for U.S. Vice President.

In 1859, Lincoln once again was defeated as a candidate for the U.S. Senate.

In 1860, Abraham Lincoln was elected the 16th President of the United States of America.

Same here too. After seven years since i got my ppl, four years since my CPL I've kinda realised its not going to happen. I am happy as cabin crew as I get to fly everyday and it's better than a 9-5 by a long way. I spent too long in mind numbing jobs paying my way through pilot training and just thought I could be doing that forever.

There's just nothing out there unless you have £30k for a TR. I always think 'imagine turning left' when I get on a plane but it's cheese and ham melts and scratch cards for the foreseeable. But I can't see the point of spending thousands a year keeping current. Having said that I'm happy doing what I do. Now only if I could get a job and put my FI rating to use (determined not to give up on that too).

I honestly wish I was in your shoes and hadn't bothered. I'm paying £370 on pilot training debt. If I didn't have that to pay I'd be quite comfortable on my modest wage. But I struggle to make ends meet most months.

First flying lesson c. 1985. First commercial flying job Nov 2004 which I reckon is about 19 long, frustrating years.

Blessing in disguise. Don't be too sad. I have wasted 80K and six years. Not a sniff of a job since qualifying in 2008. I wish I had never started. You are right it's a dream. Ask how many pilots encourage their children to follow in their footsteps. Very few. Just do PPL flying. More fun than sat in the cruise for 7 hours I'm told.....

If you can afford a PPL one day, get it! You will taste the sheer pleasure of flight.

If you think you can do a thing or if you think you can’t do a thing – you’re right.

Go for PPL and have fun learning every stage of it

Enjoy GA . Live your aviation life .

All the best and hope to hear you getting ppl soon

Obstacles can't stop you. Problems can't stop you. Most of all, other people can't stop you. Only you can stop you .

Midiman
 

Check out the GAPAN PPL Scholarship.

Flying Scholarships - GAPAN

http://www.gapan.org/file/580/ppl-2012.pdf

I'm very sorry for you midiman, but you are not alone.

Perhaps you're doing a few wannabees a favour by giving them a dose of reality. It is very easy to sign up to a CPL course and get carried away by the brochures and believe the FTOs when they paint a picture of your possible future career. But for a third of graduates it takes years and for at least another third it never happens.

Always have a good backup plan (a career!) to fall back on.

April 15th, 1865 he was shot dead. Be careful what you wish for!

Get a PPL, do the IR and play with those privileges. Good luck.

In 1973 got PPL First Pilot job in 1994 Have enjoyed an 18 yr airline career which began at 48 yrs of age never say "never"

I know a guy who didn't even get started until his late 40s. Happily flying an Air New Zealand ATR these days.

To be honest in these days where everything is buy-a-type-rating and pay-to-fly, age has never been less relevant, because the employer isn't investing a penny in you anyway they don't care.

Sure you won't get a BA cadetship, probably won't get a longhaul command at a legacy airline, and the later you leave it the less time you have to recoup your investment. Those are facts that won't change. But if you're realistic about where you're likely to end up (regional or lo-co at best), if you've got the money and just want to blow your kids' inheritance on your play thing, then it's entirely possible a lot older than your current age.

I don't approve of pay-to-fly or anything else and I'll probably STILL slag you off if you go down that road - but I guess old codgers have just as much of a right to trash the industry as the young kids do :rolleyes:

Twice in my career I've been told my career was over.

Age 19 (yes 19!) when I was chopped from University Air Squadron training, I was told very clearly that I had no aptitude to be a pilot.

So I did my PPL, and a degree in aeronautics, and got a job in flight testing engineering. The PPL took 2 years because I could only afford a lesson every 2-3 weeks, and that at the expense of just about everything else.

Age 26, I failed a very expensive course paid for by my employer in Flight Test Engineering, and was told that (in the opinion) of my tutors I was totally unsuited to any role in flight testing.

So I went and did a PhD in flight testing, in my own time and with mostly my own money. Progressed onto some really quite senior jobs, and ended up running a series of test programmes and international campaigns.

Aged 41 I now have 4 figure hours, nearly 400 hours in flight testing, have crewed the first flights of 10 new-build aeroplanes, worked in aviation in more countries than I bother counting any more, and whilst only a small part of my life is piloting, do have a commercial licence and an instructor rating, and overall work full time in aviation, making a salary that wouldn't embarrass a lot of full time airline pilots and flying most weeks.

Despite twice, very authoritatively, being told that I was completely unsuited to a professional aviation career.


So you've given up after only 4 years. Fair enough, it leaves the field more open to the truly dedicated. The ones who push every waking minute for the aviation career they really want. I'm not claiming I'm special in having pushed that hard, loads of people have - quite a few have posted on this thread already.

Aviation careers, any of the worthwhile ones anyhow, are tough to get into, and tough to stay in. If you have that dedication, you can get there.

If that consists of watching other people flying out of LHR and wishing, then you don't have that dedication. After 4 years, if you wanted it enough, any salaried income would have got you a PPL and a start on the ATPL groundschool (or whatever other route you are taking, I'm the first to say that an airline cockpit isn't the only job, and personally I was never interested in that route.)

G

I didn't know the gent personally, but I suspect that AL really wanted to change a nation, abolish slavery, and be remembered for what he'd done.

He'd be dead by now anyhow. He won.

G

Your too young to chuck in towel, I started at age 35, never really wanted to do airline flying as I have a unrelated business, which I wanted to keep going. Took me several attempts at most of the exams, flying courses were hard for me, but I kept going, now at the age of 47 I fly most weeks Im an instructor examiner and have over 1000 hours. One of my students is just finished his commercial training at the age of 48.

So stop feeling sorry for yourself and get going.

I would add that it is a gamble to get a well paid job. I was an instructor in Cabair for several years freelance, I followed at lot of the students progression, as they come back to me to get their SEPs signed. Out of 25 guys I knew only a few are now still flying, a lot of them have let licenses lapse and moved on, never to go back to flying, but if you accept its not an easy path or there are no guarantees, get stuck in, it is possible to get there, but keep your eyes wide open.

Hi Midiman,

Don't you work in IT and UK? Salaries are very good! Go contractor route. I also work in IT. I think IT work can be very frustrating sometimes so it makes you sad. I am from Lithuania and I just got my CPL and salary 1000pounds is considered very good here! If I don't get flying job I am thinking about moving to UK. Look every second airline hires IT developers!!! :) Get the job get to know pilots and they will guide you with your flying career.
You can go flying gliders or ultralights. You can build a plane yourself! Possibilities are endless for you!

Didi any of you consider that the flying clubs are crying our for flying instructors?

Are they?

there are stupid amounts of them getting trained up every year.

First of all, sorry for my english!!

I got my PPL in 1991 when I was 19, but I couldn't afford a CPL until 2007, when the crisis was already here.

Now I'm 40 and nobody is hiring me, with 400TT, a fATPL, IR(ME) rating and FI.

But I don't give up. I have started my own business with a friend older than me who is in the same situation. We are doing tiuristic flights without investing a dime. Use your imagination:

We have advertising in the internet for the touristic flights. The website gets 20% of the price. We have an agreement with an FTO which has the license to do the touristic flights, so it is all legal.
We provide the clients, fly the airplanes and get an small share of the price, and the FTO gets flying hours for their airplanes and most of the money for the rental of the airplanes. We all win.

I'm only flying 3h/month, and I have to work as industrial engineer during the week because the earnings are not enought, but the business is going up and maybe in the future we wiil be able to buy our own airplane.

Adapt, improvise, overcome...

Hell, I know it is easier to talk the talk than walk the walk, but I would encourage you to keep the dream alive Midiman - finding the right finance will always be difficult, but I think a famous Chinese saying goes along the lines of 'The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step...'

Find the funds for your PPL and go from there...

Genghis offers some valuable comment here - I'm sure we have all found ourselves in a position in life where someone in authority has stated 'you will never make it' - be it a maths exam, a driving lesson or your parkour buddies... the thing is I know lots of people who have been told this, and have made it. I can count my self in that category, having been crushed several times at a well known military training establishment in Lincolnshire; to then go on and excel in my career and pip my peers to some of the most competed for posts in my Branch.

Find a way Midiman...talk to your family and friends...and take the small steps.

Most of all, believe in yourself.

midiman

there are loads of different flying jobs out there - not just flying for airlines.

ok i don't really know your circumstances - wife, child, mortgage, full time job etc., so i am working on assumptions here, but it's not over if you don't want it to be. there are so many other opportunities out there. i do understand though, that sometimes you can weigh up all your circumstances and think, nah it won't happen. my wife and i had a baby on new years' day so i have to save up for his future, and i also have a mortgage to pay as well as full time work. so it might seem that that's it, my life is done and i have to stick with it, but i'm still putting a bit away for my flying, no matter what happens and will still look to get in the air whenever possible (weather permitting)

last year i finished my PPL (i'm nearly 38), and am now hours building to start my CPL, as well as currently doing a night qualification. it's a slow process but i'm not in a hurry and i don't have a particular desire to become an airline pilot - i'm under the impression that airlines would prefer to hire younger pilots anyway. once all that is done i'd like to do instructing, and maybe some ferry flying - both opportunities to fly and be paid for the privilege.

i dont know whether you have even started your PPL but i can heartily recommend that you get up in the air and get that licence, because even having that alone is extremely rewarding and is a great achievement. once you have that and fly around the skies, planning flights, visiting other airfields and their cafes, flying abroad, even just chatting to other pilots and instructors, being a member of a flying club, you'll really enjoy it.

if you can spare a bit of money to do your PPL do it, you won't regret it.

Hi AndoniP,

You post is very informative but if you don't want to be Airline Pilot why do you need a PPL? Flying with PPL you need GA plane that is expensive, old, maintenance has to be done by authorized mechanic ect.
I though that nowadays everybody flies ultralights that are modern, twice as fast and twice as fuel efficient as old GA planes. Even airline pilots enjoy them in free time.

Hi Midiman,

I know the feeling, it can be hard to really believe that you can do it, and I guess sitting around at LHR watching planes take off and talking yourself into a funk won't help either.

I wouldn't give up so easily though. I'm 37 and had given up on things about ten years ago, for various reasons, and then had some sort of an epiphany last year and realised I could still make this happen. Doing contract humanitarian work all over the place these past years, and just wrapped up in Somalia. Heading home next week to finish the PPL and take it from there, one step at a time.

It won't be easy and I'll be throwing plenty of hard earned dollars at it (not worth a whole lot in the euro zone!), but for me personally I want to see how this plays out. I'll be contracting for a while yet to pay for it most likely, but so what. One of the other posters suggested talking to other pilots, and at least in my experience this has been a good thing to do. My big question to some guys I met last year was, am I too old to start this now - to a man (and woman too!) they said no, run with it, bearing in mind it'll be tough.

So if you're in the IT business, see about contracting, or get out of the UK and find a country where you can make some decent cash to pay for things. Try NGOs or the UN - they always need IT people. I know a guy who did just that some years back, started flying in his mid-thirties, and now flies a Challenger. Not too shabby. Another lad throwing baggage for years landed a right hand seat at a low cost airline, after much hard work.

I guess moving into it with your eyes open is about as much as any of us wannabees can do. Talk to as many people as you can. But keep trying, at least get a PPL and see how you feel after that. For the rest of you out there, wish us luck!

So you became a first officer at 48?

How did that come about?

To hire an aircraft don't you need a licence of some sort? Or have I done it all wrong? :}

Yes I work in IT.

I get paid well for what do but it's dam boring.

Times are hard in the UK and every year I have to re-apply for my job every year!!

They have also stopped our training. Imagine an airline saying you are getting no further training in your job and you salary has been frozen.

Welcome to the world of IT !!

I feel like a zombie turning up to do the same thing every day. Spending 10 hours a week travelling to work to earn what they give me.

IT is not fun and no longer well paid.

This is why I want to get out and do something for me.

Hi midiman, and everyone else!

I've been following this forum for a year now, I think. Haven't posted much , but reading lots of threads with interest. And I would say, that my view on everything has changed a lot since then. I'm 24, work as a software developer, which I quite enjoy. Even if you'd asked me 4 month ago, would I get a loan from a bank, quit my job and forget about my (starting, but quite much to lose actually) career, if I could and spend all my money on an opportunity to get into right hand seat, I would say "YES" without hesitation. At that time I was already taking the second day of assessment for EasyJet MPL program, and I was quite determined on getting the whole large sum of money for the training (I probably wouldn't have got it anyway, but that's not the point). Now it's been 4 month since then, and I see it completely differently. I'm partially thankful to those all guys talking about pay-2-fly stuff all around the forum.

I was always trying to rush, to get into Integrated ab-initio program, and learn to fly in 18 month, and as quickly as possible find a job or something. But now I ask myself - "why should I rush anywhere ?". I was afraid, of losing my chance, afraid of something else, impatient of something, nervous, and ready to do reckless things to get what I want. I was ready to get into Cathay Pacific SO program and spend 5+ years in Hong Kong ALONE (now I don't). But being in a rush is never a good thing. Now I admire the old-school pilots, who put lots of effort to getting their license in a modular route. I want to be like them. It sounds more like fun, and personal achievement. Ask yourself why do you want to be a pilot? I hope you'll have an answer "because I like flying", because this is my answer too. And the reason I want become a professional pilot, because you can fly more frequently. But if you'll get flying even once a month, that would be great, right? So take any possibility. You are so young, event half of life haven't passed yet - 39 is nothing. The thing I understand now is not about getting something, but rather living your dream. But living a dream doesn't say that you need to get all your licenses as quickly as possible and then enjoy flying a large aircraft - believe me, you'll never feel that happiness (e.g. I've been struggling to get my Masters, and every day I thought - I'll graduate, and feel free, feel happy, everything will be possible. But when I've received my diploma - nothing's changed, I don't feel that different, its all the same). I feel happy when I know that I'm moving somewhere - visiting pilot schools, arranging training lessons, experiencing something new, meeting experienced pilots, just being in that environment - it's all so exciting. I know that i'm not standing still. And it doesn't require me to put hundreds thousands of pounds into training. I've got 2 hours flight with instructor in my brand new log book. I'm ready to start PPL training, and then, when I have enough finance MAYBE I'll move on to ATPL. Even if it takes 20 years to get a pilot job, even if I won't get it ever, I'll still enjoy every second of flying, because I'm not afraid of losing, of missing chance. Even though flying is my passion, I know that there is something much more important - people we love.

Becoming a gymnastics world champion doesn't mean only fancy gyms and good coaches. Gymnasts may train in a cold garage, why? - because they enjoy gymnastics. The WAY you follow is the most important thing, not the result you get, and getting a pilot job is part of the way (quite significant part btw). So just enjoy it, doesn't matter how much time it will take, believe in yourself, and you'll get where you want to be. It's better to spend 350£ on trial 2 hour starter pack tomorrow, rather than waste 20 years on saving money for integrated route and never get there. Why ? Because the first option gives you 2 hours of flying, the second NONE (simple maths)! And believe me, you'll be more experienced, self-confident and proud of yourself, even if you don't get it till the end.

I wish you good luck, don't give up on your dreams, but be reasonable. I'm too young to give advice, but it's more of my thoughts, rather than advice. At the end of the day, it's your choice. At 39 life is not over and dreams are not either.

BTW: You can always get PPL, then acquire aerobatics skills, spend some time training, meet some people, and get into Red Bull Air Race. Sounds like a great plan, doesn't it? It's professional, but does not require even CPL. Of course it's not that easy as I describe, but the point is that there are lots of opportunities despite airlines, just open your eyes a bit wider, and you'll see those.

Good Luck! Hope to see you some day in the cockpit!

Hey midiman,

I'm also in IT, and yeah it does seem like that all the time. The depression of just sitting here doing the same old rubbish, when you could be doing something a hundred times better, it can be disheartening.

First things first, make a plan to get a new job to save for flying lessons. Then once you have the money, book the lessons and enjoy.

A new job is the most important thing, one that will reward you, refresh your career and enthusiasm for IT, and make your time commuting and working seem almost worth it. Something that will allow you to save x hundreds per month for flying.

Don't despair. The road to a PPL can be long, but you can do it, it's easily attainable and not too difficult. But when you're up in the air after having planned a flight to Shoreham, Wellesbourne or wherever, you'll feel on top of the world :ok:

It's off-topic of course! Why everyone keeps saying, that IT is boring? It actually depends on what you do, IT as well as other industries is very wide. Practice low level C or Ada (IT guys will understand), apply for position in avionics and you are already in aviation industry. Acquire licenses, work hard, and you might get into flight testing one day. There are lots of positions out there!
I'm currently working in embedded, and it gets very exciting once doing something really interesting (set-top box, or mobile device). For the last year I've been traveling more, than some businessmen do (28+ flights). Do you still think it's boring? :)

Why not go to the USA, there is no Pay to fly schemes there, pilots are paid from instructor to 747.
my god, why other agencies don't step up and ask airlines to stop to kill us?

What flying schools are crying out for instructors?

why retrain to become a developer when you can retrain to become a pilot?

going to the usa is going to cost loads for training, and accommodation. it's money he doesn't have i believe.

the most effective way for him to train is part time, and whenever he has the money.

Paid well = able to afford to fly.

Presumably you have evenings free that you could study? Presumably you have weekends free that you could be training? If you have domestic commitments, unless you are a single parent, then I'm guessing that half a day each weekend is feasible. Which should get you to PPL within a year, then hour building whilst you study ATPL groundschool after that.

Sorry, I'm afraid that my sympathy ran out - not that I had much to start with.

If you want to fly enough, you can. We all did, and nobody had it easy. Everybody had to struggle with time and money. Many commuted and hated their day jobs at the same time. I did my CPL whilst doing a busy day-job and commuting 10 hours per week - so it took me a few more hours and a lot more months. Big deal, loads of other people have done that as well.

Pull your finger out and do it, or stop complaining.

G

I could not agree more with this statement :D.

Try going into Rotary. You will know what expensive is.

Your salary has been frozen? Luck you. I work for a large airline and we've had two pay cuts in the last six years and had to work significantly harder for less money. You won't get much sympathy round here I'm afraid.

G T Engineer is bang on. The OP is saying his dream is dead due to finances, but from what I can see, he's never done anything to make it a reality.

If your job doesn't pay enough to fund training, then get another job that does. That then becomes part of your master plan and contributes towards the end goal. Most people don't have the money to train sitting in the bank doing nothing - it's all about taking small steps towards making it happen.

What have you done over the past 4 years to make it happen? Once you are a bit older, have commitments and bills to pay, it gets harder. But getting your licence at any age takes commitment and sacrifice.

You still have time, but its not going to fall into your lap.

PPL (A) under six grand if you know where to go

Add microlight rating and when you have logged 100 hours PIC do the microlight instructors course.

That will get you flying (and earning a bit of pocket money) for well under 20 grand.

Becoming a developer does not require paying thousands of pounds as piloting does, it can be done at home, if you have enough commitment. If you are already in IT, you should already have an understanding of how to program. And you can change your boring job to more interesting quite easily, just some self training is required, if you want. And then earning money for pilot license won't be that hard and boring. If course it is a matter of interest, I'm not saying that you won't be bored by programming, but there are also plenty of other opportunities, I'm not going to list them here. If you want, you can find them.

Don't want to be rude, just curious. What sort of training is required for IT professionals, that you can't (againt) get at home? World of IT is quite unique - you can train yourself without even leaving your flat (everything is in the Internet), unless you require some additional hardware, but that's just in case of defence and/or embedded projects. And those are definitely NOT boring. Of course its not that easy, as it sounds, and after an 8h working day in the office its difficult to make yourself read about microcontrollers, ECUs etc. at home, but while you are not flying (nothing happens in pilot career) - rather than sitting in front of the TV in the evenings (just an example), it is still possible to devote some time to expanding horizons of your current career path in IT, which is I would say 'unlimited'. It may change your life, and even move you forward to flying career.

So, heads up. Be motivated and find commitment. I'm sure you gonna succeed.

Good luck

I feel sorry if your job isn't going well, but there's plenty of choice in IT, and on the whole it's well paid. The hours are normally pretty easy and it tends to be fairly low-stress. However, commuting can be soul destroying and I personally found fixing that problem turned my life around.

In fact it enabled me to have enough spare time and money to get a PPL. Then an IMC. That wasn't too difficult so I got a CPL. Then an instructor rating. Then an aerobatic instructor rating. Then an IR. After a while I needed a new challenge so I got a parachute pilot rating. Then one day when I passing 5000' in the climb for the 10th time being deafened and vibrated to death for £50 a day I thought "what the hell am I doing here I can programme a computer".

So, be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

BTW I still work in IT.