Is pilot job market picking up at all??
 

I have been waiting for the market to pitck up for the last 3 years. Still no flying job. Other people have been waiting longer than me too.

The only one thing to remember if you want a flying job, is that you have to pay for a type rating.

apart from Flybe, everywhere else gets you to pay for your Type rating now. Its standard practice, unless you get very lucky, like winning the lotto to night.

I wish you the best of luck whatever you choose to do.

It really does depend on whether you have the funds for a type rating with the likes of ryanair, and only one in 20 or so pass the interview...

Who have you found to do the CPL/MEIR for 15k may i ask????

I would say there is a small light at the end of the tunnel for experienced pilots only at the moment...the above posts give a pretty good indication of what the low-houred pilot market is like...

Basically, someone's holding a match in Calais, when your in Folkstone with your cigarette for newbies at the moment.

:}

No wish to pour water on your dreams but 15-17k for a CPL/IR????
That is totally unrealistic and I would be very dubious of anyone saying it can be done for that money.

Whilst the market is picking up for experienced pilots it is very slow and if you don't have the correct rating/type experience/ and now current within 3 months (or even 28 days) you get discounted.

Sorry to say there is still a mountain to climb yet!

There not a million miles away with that figure, I did mine for under 20k around 2.5 years ago.

CPL/MEIR can be done for less than £20k if you do your homework.

However, if you are starting from scratch, you will need a PPL, ATPL groundschool, 100 hours of P1 (often refered to as 'hour building') and an MCC.

Very approximately,

PPL~8K
100 hours P1~8K
Groundschool~3k
MCC~3K
Exams/test fees/aircraft hire for test~5K

This brings you to around £45K - £50K from start to finish as an absolute minimum. This excludes resits, extra training, travel, accomodation, medical etc etc...

This is why people are doubting your headline figure of £20K. I always tell my students not to expect any change out of 50 grand.

So do I.....

sorry should have said, i got PPL and done the theory. Went back to school today and asked few more questions about training and the cost has now come from 15k initially to 20k which means if I struggle I will have to get career development loan to get additional training.

Hope banks still provide these loans.

You don't have to apologise mate, what you initially said was quite clear.

You said you were considering doing CPL/IR/ME.

Typical useless replies you'll always get on here, from know it alls who assume too much.

Stapleford does CPL for £5210 and IR for £11665 = 17k (minimum)

Simple easy answer :ugh:

Be careful basing your budget on minimum times.

The minimum legal requirement for the IR will be up to 35 hours in a Sim, and only a minimum of 15 in the aircraft if you do the CPL first.

In practice, it will be difficult to get a first time pass in this time, and now the CAA has clarified that taxi time will not count, you're looking at 17-20 hours in the aircraft straight away. Make sure you budget for this, and not the bare minimum quoted in the brochures. :}

VJW - sorry but you are wrong. Add another £2700 for ME.

Add approach fees, landing fees, CAA fees, and can promise you even with minimum hours it will be more then quoted.
I did CPL/ME/IR at Stapleford, and cost me around £25.000 - I did it all in stages, and passed first time on all!

The cheapest you can do is probably £21.000 - £22.000 if you do in minimum hours, incl fees etc. But if you budget for £25.000 you should be safe.

(not including hour building)

Ok perhaps he'll need a ME rating, from his original post it's not easy to tell. ME/IR I took to mean a multi engine instrument rating, and that a MEP class rating was already held. In either case, one of us is guessing.

Approach fees of course, CAA fees (aside from me) everyone has to pay! Not sure what landing fees you're talking about. Did my CPL/IR at SFC and it was free to land there. Never landed at Southend, if memory serves me right.

Notice from my post I said 17k minimum. That 'minimum' meant things like the above would be added on. My main point was that too many people thought that because he wanted to do a CPL/IR/ME that he needed to now start the PPL/hours/ATPL's etc etc, when actually to me it was pretty obvious he'd already got those, and that his 20k would be pretty much all the money he'd need to get what he original requested a CPL course, and ME/IR!

I would say things are still quite bleak but there does appear to be a bit of movement. For low houred folks things are still very quiet out there.

Having said that I've also heard that one of the smaller operators is looking to get some additional aircraft which will require crewing, but this is certainly nothing more than a "well informed rumour" and this time.

good new for you all,
airlines are now filling their database because they know soon, they won't be any pilot left on this market.I received 3 calls this last months asking for my CV.

the causes are :


- in 1 year, US airline will have problem to find pilots(full ATP required for copilot).I belive US airlines will need hire expats very soon or they are not going to fly their planes, and I don't belive they will pay cadets with no hours.

-crisis is ending. bank make big money, unemployment is still high, but will soon go down.

-fuel will be cheaper once the arab countries fix their problem.finish to pay gadafi and other middlemen crooks.

-retirement for some pilots reaching their 65.

to tell you there is some hope for everybody.we are going to see in 2011 a big big change in the worldwide economy.you may even find a job in Lybia.

no need to start to pay these scamers of P2F.it's over for them!
I have been negative so far(based on my 25 years experience) but view the situation in Arab countries, I have to change my point of view about the future.
:ok:

Captiansuperstrom :eek:,
A new side of you :ok:

WOW Captiansuperstrom!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets hope you are right ... Would like to be as optimistic as you :rolleyes:

I initially thought it was sarcasm but I will give him the benefit of the doubt!

I think hes stayed logged on and one of his kids posted that really :E

Downwind I'd love that to be true.

Hey VJW out of interest how come you didnt pay test fees , was it because you worked there ?

Is that Lybia minora or majora? Your choice for a big or small new opening!

Cheer up
 

I think for some people they are only looking for sure bets; I mean what about all the people that started a business and they were told it won't work by everyone. I beleive it's the people that know what they are getting into and are able to defy everyone and take the plunge are the one with the resolve to make it . I mean loads of industries are difficult to get into. Anyone would think a Pilot has no career choices at all.

Obviously timing is an issue. But I think too many peeople expect an Fatpl to get you into a jet instantly. When actually it's just a commercial license. Think of all the jobs that are out there where you spend 1-2 years learning. I saw someone post if your a Pilot your not going to be rich go start your own business. How can you compare being an employee to an employer; just riduculus. What about investing your salary? there are loads of options. I think if everyone sgtart to think postive things might change. The media has hyped this recession into everyone's brains. I'm about to finish the PPL and go Modular; It wont be easy it may not work; I may never fly a jet; but if you don't take a shot then your not gonna score.

Jugs

Commendable attitude, but if you look at it the reality will tell you a different story. In boom time there's about 250-300 jobs per year created in the industry through retirements/expansion etc. On average about 1200 wannabes come out of the flight schools with a fATPL. This means 900 will never make it, ever. You can have a positive attitude all you like, you can want it all you like, but the majority will never make it. Thinking positive will not change those figures.

Ridiculous, the market remains on its knee's. Even with hours on type it is a real challenge to find an interview let alone paying work.

Remember, at present, air pax movements are in decline (slight rise in freight) and the oil price is soaring. P2F is the ONLY way to get a ride now for the FATPL with shiny MEP/IR!. So best tap up the folks; you'll have to pay for your pose!!

Airforces around Europe are shrinking, lots of service leavers will keenly hoover up any real chances so you know what the remaining option is?!:E

And splendid it is. Continued cheap air fares for my needs through your kind subsidies. I thank you all.

I think there will always be a market for people willing to pay to work. However, I think it is wishful thinking to believe that the airline pilot profession will receive adequate pay for the type of job they do. I used to cringe when I heard the term "bus drivers of the sky", but now I cringe because actual bus drivers get paid better and have reasonable terms and conditions.

I'm in the process of applying for a Career Development Loan as they are currently offered by Barclays and the Cooperative Bank. You can get up to £10,000 as long as you don't have access to more than £16,000 personally.
I know this is a very basic point but before you commit to any course ensure that you have got a contingency fund (mine is at least 15%) in addition to the course costs and you also need to be 110% clear about what extras you need to pay for i.e. CAA Test fees for CPL and IR exams, aircraft hire for test, landing fees etc.
I've found putting together a spreadsheet of costs including living expenses etc for whilst doing the course helpful for budgeting purposes.

Deano said... Can you point me in the direction of links / data for these figures please? Im not necessarily doubting it but would like to know where I can find it.. Thx

Merritt

I got them from a PPRuNe seminar I attended a few years ago. Apparently they got them off the CAA if I remember correctly.

Hello guys,

How do you think the market will look like in six years?

EZY & RYR are the only ones hiring and you'd better budget £100k for either.

House prices are falling. There is no QE or slashing Interest Rates available. Taxes have gone up and public sector job cuts are 6 weeks away on a big scale.

Rock. Hard Place.


6 years? Yeah, probable about right in terms of the normal economic cycle.


WWW

More great news....:{

I am about to make up plans for the atumn and I know I should opt for university. However, after searching and analysing info, it's still difficult to deside wether this is the right time to head off to uni for 3 years or wether it's now one should start training. I don't want to miss the train!

Anyone who is contemplating having a go at it in these circumstance clearly does not have the decision making skills necessary to become a pilot.

Get your PPL and enjoy private flying for now.

Though on a lighter note, the other day I stumbled accross a post by WWW posted early last decade, predicting a prosperous economic future. :E

I can say 1 thing for sure. More and more people fly by each year (look at data from airports), companies ordering more and more airplanes, opening new routes. More and more airports is build and getting expended. (only in chine they gonna build around 50 new ports (now they have around 90, so they almost gonna doble them).
Im not sure, but it just maaaay be, indication of market picking up?! Or does it mean less pilot jobs available...?:p

"expensive oil" and stuff like that is completely BS! Companies not gonna close routes and fly less, because of expensive oil. They make money of FLYING, not on having fewer routes.
Ticket prices maybe higher, wages lower, lower service... but by all means, not "less flying".
And lets not forget about "new technology" that make flight much more fuel efficient... which would mean "more jobs"?:p

it doesn't mean they will hire YOU. airplanes are replaced. airport are certainly bigger, due to the expansion of china. too bad for you, you are not chinese, so no job for you there.

not true, when fuel is high , it means less money in your pocket and more in your fuel tank . people fly less, buy less gadgets,... and don't go to cinema so often.

new technology means aircraft cost more, more insurance to pay,... even if you plane burn 4 G instead of 8 G/hour, insurance will triple because the plane cost 300'000 instead of 100'000


you want to convince yourself your didn't lose money. sorry guys, you should have chosen another profession.

RJ111, so exactly what are the decision making skills to become a pilot then?

Basic risk assessment is certainly one of them

Captainsuperstorm
As I said in my other post, I do know people, who worked hard and got (or about to get) into cockpit in 737 for good airliners.
As well, I do know people, who got their CPL IR and now working at gas station/subway/mcDonalds. Because they dont do their best, to get into cockpit of an airliner.

Dont forget, people getting older, quitting their jobs, getting off with pensions. And airliners need people. As we both agreed, more and more airports getting build, they growing bigger, people fly more and more.
As well, companies do replace some of the old planes, yes. But they as well do order NEW. That called expending the fleet. They do open new routes.

Companies need new people all the time. No matter what you say. No one cares, what you are saying. Cause this is FACTS.
People fly more, companies opening new routes, its more and bigger airports everywhere in the world. Old pilots getting out.

According to your post, NO ONE will get hire. Never ever, no matter what.

I dont mean to be disrespectful, but its seems like you self never made it into the cockpit. And now you are so bitter, just trying to ruin the dream for everyone else.

Anyhow, I dont want to argue with you.
Id rather tell people, there is jobs out there. And it will be more. Simply because industry is growing all the time.
Cheers