First time Commercial Pilot at age 48 - Looking for insights and advice, please.
 

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for some insights and advice.

I am considering taking on the Integrated training program (FATPL with one of the Irish flight training academys). I will be 48 when I complete the program.

I would very much appreciate any insights or advice you would offer as to a future career as a commerical pilot within the aviation industry.

All advice is welcome.

Thank you.

Hello, I’ve just tried to reply to your PM, but your in box is full !

Cheers,

L8

Hi FATPLat48,
Can you afford to lose €150,000 and still be in good shape for retirement? What I mean is that the market in 2 years could be in a real slow down and unless you're on a tagged scheme (that is, already inline to start immediately after completion) you could struggle to find a decent paying job. As a new CPL holder, at best you'll earn €30K give or take or at worse, nothing. If you don't find a job soonish, you'll need to pay for an instrument rating renewal and they aren't cheap. First of all, get a health check done. Find what the class 1 requirements are and trot along to your docs and get the various checks done, biggies are blood pressure, vision, hearing, diabetes and balance.

For sure, you could be on a tagged scheme, go straight to a jet job, make command in 3-5 years and you're laughing. That is the best outcome possible.
If this doesn't happen, are you so financially prepared to accept lower paying jobs and still be in good shape for retirement? I'm sure you're thinking, easy, 17 years to recoup the costs. In theory, yep, you're right. Plan for at least 1 redundancy and move in that time frame. Yes, that does sound like worst case scenarios but you'll thank me.

Many of us who are in our mid 50s and older are looking at part time to regain the work/life balance and to ease into retirement.

Good luck. If you really want to do it, then you will, just listen to those who are already doing what you want to do and who aren't trying to sell you anything. ;)

The expression “old dog and new tricks” springs to mind.
Age has a definite impact on the learning curve. Depending just what your present employment is, and how academic you were in your youth are critical factors.

Go down the modular route. Get your class one medical, obtain your PPL, and then decide if you are really are suitable to proceed further.
The most likely occupation for someone of your age is as a flying instructor.

If you have money to burn, and the cost of the course is insignificant then go for it.
If this is not the case, DON’T.......

Thanks L8starter,

Can you post to this thread?

Please and thanks.

What parkfell said......

Thank you parkfell, appreciate your frankess and honesty.

Thank you redsnail.

I appreciate your frankness and insights, some food for thought indeed.

Thank you.

Thank you TheEdge

FATPLat48, you sent me a PM asking if I would be prepared to have a chat with you, and to which I agreed. I PM’d you back with a personal contact detail, which I am not going to post publicly.

You have received some good advice. I remember what it was like when I was making a similar decision all those years ago; not knowing anyone in aviation; trying to source and receive sound information, or opinions from those “in the know”; worrying about the finances (it was a little different then, I went through the “self-improver route”, worked during the week (to support the family), Instructed part-time at the weekends, built the hours, and self-studied at home for the CPL (to get a BCPL), and then the ATPL; it took eight years from start to finish, and no guarantee of a job at the end of it. It felt very lonely at times, and my friends, who only used to think I was mad, became firmly convinced that I was ! Having spent over twenty years in commercial aviation, I am now inclined to agree with them . . . .

For all the advice you will receive, only you can make, and then live with, a decision. Sometimes, it helps just hearing yourself talking through things, to get stuff straight in your mind, and help you move forward, which is why I offered to have a chat; not so much to offer you advice, or tell you what to do, because nobody is going to do that. Talk with as many people as possible, it does help, even if it’s not what you (in your heart of hearts) want to hear . .

L8

Hi Everyone, I'd like to ask your advice on my situation if i may. I've read a lot of posts from different people, from different walks of life, at different points in their career and the advice has been food for thought. I would like to tailor it to me personally though if I can!

I am 40 years old and I completed my PPL over the space of 4 weeks last summer. A lot later than planned!
I was due to attend RAF Cranwell back in 1997 before life threw a few curve balls. I was shortlisted for a sixth form scholarship before this, having passed aptitude tests, medical etc and my pathway to fast jet was set. Alas it was not to be and I made a career in civvy street instead.
I missed the cutoff to fly in the raf but at 26 I applied for aircrew, looking at loadmaster. I passed all tests but was put on a two year waiting list for aircrew so joined as an engineer intending to transfer later (recruiters will tell you anything to get you to sign kids!) Transferring was not a realistic option and I left the forces without fulfilling my dream of flying.

Now that life is stable, and a PPi claim landed £7k in my lap, I've finally earned my wings on my own and feel like that 17yr old kid again. I would love to now turn to Cargo or Passenger flights but as I'm NOT 17 i'm unsure how feasible it will be.
The theory, the test, medicals etc shouldnt pose a problem. I'm not rich but have about £1k of spare cash a month if I behave myself so could get at least 10hrs a week in the air. This should get me to 200hrs in around 18months. I'm self employed with an online business which gives me a lot of flexibility to get to an airfield whenever its clear!

So, I'm a 42yr old with CPL, looking at the future. I've got about 18years flying ahead of me (is that right?) I could hopefully get a job as an FI and earn while racking up my hours, another 12-18months and i'd hopefully have close to the 1500 needed for ATPL (from work and private hours).
I'm now probably 44, and looking for a FO role with an airline........Realistically - with competition from the young twentysomethings or experienced thirtysomethings - will I have a chance of landing a role with an airline?
I know it's illegal to discriminate on age, but if you have two pilots with the same skills and one can provide an extra decade or two of service then will the older chap have much of a chance?

I don't care about the politics of the job, I just want to earn a good wage, be in the air, see a bit of the world, and get a break from the wife and kids for half the month :)
I know there is no guarantee of ever getting to the left chair of an airline (or even the right!) but will being in my early 40's make it harder than at any other time of my life?

Thanks in advance guys

The cynic in me suggests that the older pilot is actually more attractive because he'll have less time to move up the payscale and will thus cost less... and can be replaced with another low earner sooner! :suspect:

Realistically, this is the point where your attitude and personality become the determining factor, as theoretically, anyone with the appropriate licences/medicals has the "same skills". I was 43 when I got hired into the RHS of a regional turboprop... I know a number of 20-30somethings who didn't make it.


The answer is yes... but that's probably more to do with your physical and mental wellbeing, than any sort of age discrimination you might face... It is just a fact of life that the body and brain are on a downward spiral from your early 20s. It makes learning harder, it makes dealing with the long hours/overnights/timezones/physiological demands harder... hell, some days it just makes getting out of bed to make a cup of tea harder! :{

It's not impossible, I'm living proof... but as I always told people "I'm too dumb and too stubborn to give up"... I've had to sacrifice an awful lot to get where I am, but my username reflects how I feel about life at this point in time. Even when I have to get up at "o'Dark thirty" for my "Stupid dream job" :}

Never too old to do something you're passionate about. Keep up the good work!

What now? I Guess this whole pandemic has thrown in some dirt for the oldies to start ? Myself (36) postponed the plan to start integrated ( 2 offers MPL) and will continue modular spread over 3-4 years .... Any of you doing the same?

Thinking about it for sure.

Not quite as old as you, but modular definitely the way to go. Proceed at a pace that suits you and the current situation.

I went modular in my 30s and would strongly advise the same today, now even for young people. Unfortunately, I believe this short magical time where age was almost a non-issue, is over. 30s are going to be old-ish again, and new pilots over 40 yo are going to have a hard time, and I predict it will continue to be so even if the market starts picking up. Doesn't equal "don't do it", but you better be willing to eat a total loss of your investment and, should the rare chance occur, be very flexible on all parameters (pay, conditions, location). For those willing to take such risk, I would still say do it, maybe get some quality PPL flying under your belt for a couple of years and observe the industry.

The problem with starting late in life in this industry is low starting pay, steep training learning curves, and low quality of life for about 10 years while building up your logbook. I did the reverse and changed careers from aviation to finance after realizing I'd much rather do something where it didn't require me to sell out of everything else in life.

I flew with career changers who had a pile of money saved up, then spend it all on flight training, then starting living off of credit cards while their spouse and young children waited for them to come home from being days away at a time. While a corporate job requires commitment just like anything else, the level of commitment for flying requires a certain amount of passion for the industry to be able to sacrifice everything else.

When people ask me if they should fly, I always recommend that you obtain your Private Pilot License, as it's relatively cheap in the grand scheme of things. Just fly for fun. Some of the most memorable flying I ever did was in a Citabria, not a EMB-145.

I've only ever seen one exception to starting a flight career late in life, and it was a family friend who previously flew F-4's in the Navy, then started his own successful real estate business to the point where he could afford to take time off to fly. At the age of 50, he was able to squeeze through airline training and flew for about a year until they tried to get him to drive to some reserve assignment several hours away. He quit on the spot and it didn't matter, because he just went back to his business full-time. If you've sold a business and are wealthy and bored, sure, this might be an interesting diversion. But for those still trying to save up for retirement? Get your recreational licenses and have fun with those. Flying professionally is rigid and systematic in comparison anyway.

Fascinating to hear from someone who has done the reverse clearly successfully and clearly everyone will make their own decisions in life but important words from both Krautwald and GoldenGooseGuy.

Advice on a modular route
 

Hi, I’d like some advice on the below as a modular route. By way of background I’m 36, with a well paid job in public relations. Own my flat in South East London. Gay, so no kids and have had a lot of fun holidays across the world. My living costs are such that each month I could bank £2K in savings. I tend not to; most of it goes on fripperies but the point is it could be spent on other things.


I enjoy my career but the idea of doing that alone full time for another 30 years fills me, if not with dread, then a certain amount of sadness. Keen to populate my life with some additional people, experiences and skills. Frankly I need something hard and a bit scary right now. I considered sailing but it’s too cold around England to be enjoyable year round.

This leads me back to flight. Took a few lessons in my teenage years, loved it but turned 18 just before 09/11. I also remember reading on the early pilot forums how exploitative entry level flying jobs in the US were before the introduction of the 1500 rule. and the emerging European low costs didn’t represent a type of flying that appealed. Always thought I’d want to either fly ultra locally or medium to long haul. All told aviation seemed like a route to heart break. Until C-19 that seemed like a big mistake on my part. But equally I’ve really enjoyed my life till now and also believe I’d have been ill suited to 35 years + in an airline job.

What I’m considering is throwing myself over the next few years into becoming a very competent pilot. Mostly for the sheer satisfaction of it and I’ve no firm goal in mind other than reaching the point where I could instruct to ME/IR level part time, and hopefully get back some of the money I’d spend on this. Equally, maybe if/when the industry picks up there might be a turboprop gig, or I dunno, something in bush flying if this turns into a total mid life crisis. I’ve lurked on here long enough to there’s no point making firm plans as to what the industry might want or need.

This is the timeline I’ve sketched out (doing this on weekends and during my holidays). Does the order seem logical or have I overlooked anything important?

Year 1
Take a class 1 medical. Assuming all goes to plan pursue PPL; night rating; hour building; IMC IR(R). Aim to finish with about 75 hrs. Review

Year 2
Take another class 1 medical. 100 hrs worth of PIC time in the UK and the US. Take some short courses in mountain flying; beach landings, tail wheel training and soft/short field landings. Start studying for ATPL theory tests. By this point have reached 192 hours. Review.

Year 3
Class 1 medical. Take the ATPL exams. Aim for first time passes at 90% or above to keep in contention for an airline job. If fall at this hurdle, accept my options will have narrowed further. Do some light hour building in the UK and pursue the FI (R) rating and have the night restriction removed. Get a part time instructor job. Aim to end the year with about 350 hours logged in total. Review.

Year 4
Class 1 medical. Acquire MEP and MEP/IR ratings. Keep instructing part time and do some ME hour building in the states. Aim to end the year with about 450 hrs logged in total

Year 5

Class 1 medical. Keep instructing part time and acquire the ME CRI rating. Aim to have logged about 630 hours in total.

Year 6
Class 1 medical. Acquire the CPL and do the MCC/JOC courses. Keep instructing. At this point I’d be 43 with a minimum of about 700 hours logged. Either I keep instructing part time or I’m in a position to start applying for FO positions, probably for a UK based turboprop operator. If the airline thing doesn’t pan out, probably keep at instructing, maybe even taking a FT role if the money were decent, or take an unpaid sabbatical and go flying for Wilderness Air or the like for a different experience. Or buy a non equity share in a multi engine piston and go on flying holidays in Europe.

I estimate I’ll spend about £78K at 2020 prices over 6 six years for ratings and hour building but would hopefully have earned some back in instructor fees. My only true red line is I won’t pay for a type rating or line training to keep me in contention for a commercial job.

Does the above seem sensible (accepting upfront that it is rather mad to spend any money on aviation right now). Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

All seems quite sensible, however do note your from finishing the ATPL exams you will have 36 months to get the CPL done, as the CPL is only 25 hours of training best to get the CPL out the way earlier than you do in your plan. Plus with the CPL you will need 50 less hours to do the FI(R) than if doing it on a PPL.
Also with the Competency based IR you can upgrade the IR to a full IR. Don't get too wound up about trying to achieve 90 percent average in the ATPL exams, there are probably only about 2 Airlines that have such a requirement and for the sort of roles you are aiming for no one is going to ask or care that much.
Multi engine hour building, you will need 30 hours p1 multi to do the MEI upgrade once you get you FI restriction removed.

Just for reference PPL level instructional pay is around 20 to 30 pounds per hour flown. So with part time PPL level instructing don't expect to make much back.
Working for an integrated school SEP Instructor salaries are now around 35- 40k per yea (with bonus's over 40 is possible). Multi instructors are getting salaries around the 50 to 65k mark.
However it is expected there may well be a surge of instructors in the next year as fresh qualifiers look to do FI ratings and many former instructors laid off from the Airlines return to instructing. So SEP pay rates may decline again. There however does tend to always be a shortage of multi engine instructors.
Also note to be able to teach IR you will need to get 200 hours IFR; you can do the IRI add on to the FI rating and be initially restricted to teaching the IRR only and then use the IRR instructing to build the IFR time.

Sorry mate, I'll have to disagree with the guy above (who doesn't seem to understand that a CBIR is a full IR).
Sure, it'll work. But it's an awful plan. You need 150 hours pic to become an FI without a CPL. A CPL only requires 100. It will be a lot cheaper to get your IR then CPL then FI - than it would be to get the FI on its own. You'd be employabe as an FO within 2 years and as an FI shortly thereafter. And for under £50k.

"Also with the Competency based IR you can upgrade the IR to a full IR", was meant to write upgrade the IRR to full IR; take time to read the context of the statement you would have realised that it was a omission of a single letter.

Fair enough 👍

Actually Rudestuff, thanks for highlighting the error (indirectly). It was my error to start with, didn't mean to come across as abrupt.

No worries, sorry for being a condescending ****!

No problem Rudestuff.

One of the consequences of C-19, and the tsunami impact on aviation, for what will be a considerable period of time, the “AM I TOO OLD” criteria will undoubtedly reduce in age.
The curve will move significantly ‘to the left’ to adjust for that, at present, undefined recovery period.

Those at the margins of what was a sensible (perhaps?) cut off age band, have now moved into the ‘probably best forgotten, unless you have money to burn band’. They should consider doing the PPL and fly for pleasure on nice days if they have a real interest in flying.

The paradox is that C-19 might have done a few hopefuls a huge favour, and not incurred a vast cost with hardly any chance of a return on the investment by securing a job. Money better saved & spend elsewhere as a result.

For those of a certain age deep into the process, you have my sympathy. Difficult choices to make.

Can you elaborate as to why that might be? From what I’ve seen the older age bracket (career changers etc) tend to be looked on favourably. You may not have meant it but your post reads that the older candidates are the secondary consideration when experience tells me quite the opposite.

There is an age cut off for most occupations. “Old dog and new tricks”. Aviation is no exception.
For those aspiring to start from scratch after a certain age will find it increasingly difficult.

And your experience contradicts this?

Of course if we’re talking someone late 40’s/early 50’s then that might be the case, though I’ve seen people that age come through and happily (until recently) flying ‘shiny jets’. I tend to believe people are taken on merit and not on age these days, and not sure whether there has been a detailed study into Type Rating success when age is the benchmark. Operators tend to take a range of people from a range of backgrounds and age brackets. They have done for quite some time. For many people they can only afford to make the jump in their 30’s!

What I do think will matter more is getting first time passes in everything, high average scores in ATPL’s and doing something worthwhile to keep current whilst the market is none existent,

Back in the early 1990s, BA Flight Engineers were no longer necessary with fleet upgrades etc.

A number ended up at BAe Prestwick to train for the CPL/IR under CAP509. Various ground school credits due to their FEng qualifications.
Age band 28-44.

The youngest had no problems, whilst the oldest wisely gave up the unequal struggle at the end of the SE phase.

It was certainty the case that on the whole they did learn slower and found it harder than the usual BA cadet in their early twenties. That I doubt would come as any surprise: “old dog and new tricks”

I see no difficulty those in their 30’s starting to train. Modular route is probably best, with the PPL course a good point to assess whether continuing on the route is worthwhile. An experience instructor is best placed to access your potential.
Those with a low golf handicap aged 40 - 45 will more than likely be successful as well. Demonstrating good hand to eye coordination and a sound temperament when playing those difficult shots out the rough or bunker.

Once you pass aged 50, on balance, the odds are not in your favour. Stick with PPL flying and enjoy it. Choose your days carefully.

pug

I agree, with your first statement, until recently, guys in their 40s, 50s, and I even knew 1 guy in his 60s who got into a regional jet! So it WAS happening. C-19 has probably changed all that for the next 5 years at least, although it is possible that some airlines may see opportunity in less experienced guys in their 40s/50s, as they may be more likely (than experienced pilots) to accept poor working conditions in order to get their shot. However in general I think (and hope) that they will choose experience over newbies when the time for hiring comes around.

I am curious about your last statement, what would you say are worthwhile ways to keep current whilst waiting for the hiring cycle to begin again?

Those unfortunate pilots need look no further than Virtual Aviation, Cambridge who are offering simulator time on A320 & B737 at attractive rates. Going as a pair of pilots is probably ideal.....?

How are the oldies doing nowadays?

It seems to me that at 38 years old, I "now" really have to throw the towel in the ring. On one side I'm super-happy the corona crisis has hit now and not later as I was scheduled to start an MPL programme in June ( can not imagine the mess I would have been in right now).

My heart really hurts as I have to say goodbye to something I have been achieving for my whole life, but just being able to do it now financially( did not want a 100k loan).

Any other thoughts or experiences here? are people still pursuing their dreams hoping for a quick market recovery?

Curious to hear from you guys and gals..

31, 32 in october for me, finished my PPL summer 2019, about to finish ATPL theory, I'm keep going, knowing the future is probably not so good, I won't go in debt, got enough cash to finish training going modular. You can still go for you PPL, flying is fun, nothing to rush for now. I don't know if the market will recover, I don't expect much anyway, I'm just looking for any kind of flying, instruction, GA, whatever is possible in the future. I would't start an integrated training today. Going modular you can probably get away with 50K.

Obtain your Class One medical.
After the PPL, slowly start the EASA exams learning.
The clock starts ticking after the first exam sitting.
18 months to complete.

Then 3 years to complete the flying for licence issue.
By 2024 should with any luck be back to near normal.

Buenas

So you didn't really want to be a pilot then?

@rudestuff -Haha give me a break I might even need to go in therapy to get over this disappointment! 2020 was the year that I was going to realize my life goal !! But I get your point..

@ jackrabbit - Thanks, age-wise you are also still in the green zone so would make sense to go ahead modular.

My overall concern is age obviously, I could do it all modular and be ready in three years. For airlines to consider oldies i.e. 38+, the market should at least be recovered to pre-corona levels to make a 20-30% chance for a right seat.

Buenas,

I´m 33 and thinking of going modular, taking my PPL and see how I get on and how the situation in the industry develops. I have noticed you are in Barcelona too, have you looked at any of the flight schools around here and would you be up to exchange notes if so?