Do you really want to be a pilot!
 

I can't help feeling that allot and of the younger guys and girls in training just don't have a passion for the actual flying anymore and don't seem to know anything about aviation before they start. All they want is a right hand seat and some gold bars and most of them don't even know what an airline pilot actually does or have even looked in the cockpit.

I have seen them looking with confusion at a DC3 and asking what that a/c is and why is it's undercarriage broken!

I flew a guy ages ago in a C206 who was just starting his training and asked me how many engines we had!

I know this is not all of you but times are tough and I think if you really want it its times like this that your passion and knowledge shines through. Some one who really really wants to fly will be happy in any aeroplane at the start, its not what you fly its how you fly it.

:ok:The thing is being a Pilot isn't as uncommon as it once was. The route to being a pilot has arguably become easier ever since the death of traditional sponsorship.

I love aviation and pretty am pretty fascinated with everything about it....but compared to some of the guys I trained with who always had this months edition of Fly Past in their bags, you could say I'm not that interested either. A said above, I love aviation, flying and what I do but I think its actually healthy for the industry to have people with other interests. Honestly would you want to spend all day behind that locked flight deck door with someone that has no real interests other than aviation??? I wouldn't.

Conversely, neither would I want to be sat on the flight deck with someone who has absolutely no interest in aviation generally because they're probably there for the wrong reasons. As with everything, theres a balance to be struck.

2W2R

Bla, I know exactly what you mean!

Im glad to see theres people that agree with me! I think in an ideal world you shouldn't even be allowed to be a commercial pilot if you're just doing it for the money or glory. I hate those people. You should only get into flying because you love flying!! Not that theres anything wrong with having other interests aswell! We want people who shout clear prop before they start their cars then call for taxi before leaving the driveway! ;)

I know the feeling! Some would like to fly just because of the pay, others for the glamour. .... and for some... heck, just for the love of flying! :ok:

Like 2 Whites 2 Reds, im also fascinated with aviation, love everything about it. My dream is to become a pilot but I have to be realistic about things. I'm not the brightest person around, I don't live in a nice area and one of my parents thinks im being unrealistic and that's hard to take. Does that mean im not going to try my hardest to get where I want to be? Course not. It's going to take alot of hard work but im willing to do it.

Ideally I'd like to be flying around Africa Bush flying in a few years time. I know most people think it's ridiculous but 9-5 office jobs just aren't for me.

I don't even want to get into the lack of hand flying skills and decision making argument, for these type of chaps. But I just think ignoring those other points, they will be sat up the front of the big tube one day thinking do you know I never flew a Piper cub or flew through a mountain pass or had to get from A to B in marginal weather or took heavy loads out of a bush strip etc etc. Some might say that's a good thing but I don't, a real aviator has a rounded knowledge and you can't buy or rush that.

Thats why I support the initiative to change the ruling regarding airline pilots. IMHO all pilots should have 1500 hrs and an unfrozen ATPL before being allowed to sit as a 1st officer, in an airline. It will encourage pilots to be pilots and see some real flying before the hum drum life of airlines. Furthermore, it will prevent operators from butchering young pilots into £ 30 000 type ratings and making them work for low pay. But most of all, it will prevent people who don't have an interest in the job from getting there. Please don't misunderstand me, you don't have to be an aviation nut to be able to fly an aeroplane, but a healthy interest in what you do will make you better at it. I was fortunate to have worked for the UN, ICRC and various other NGO's on my way to my ATPL, it gave me the chance to fly some great machines and get some very valuable "stick time."
These opportunities are out there, you just have to look past the shiny Boeing or Airbus

I joined for glory and the girls, but all I got is ropey old clubhouses and elderly men :confused:

something about nails and hitting heads ??
 

B200Drvr

I think you've identified one of the major problems with our industry today... and I couldn't agree more.

There are far too many people (note: people, not pilots) sat in the RHS of 737 / 320 / whatever that just have no experience of aviation.

Lets face it, if you have a fat cheque book it's not difficult to get a froz ATPL and a type rating (plus 300 hrs) and still have no idea how to fly.

I'm with B200Drvr - ALL pilots wanting that RHS should spend an apprenticeship doing the real learning - that means a lot of the 1500 hrs requirement doing work as FIs, para-dropping, taxi work, etc.

The now shrinking status of drivers of the shiney jets can only be recovered when they are 'real pilots', not just trained monkeys with big loans or wealthy parents.

Right - rant over - back to work !!

Money, glory, glamour? What year is this? :hmm:

I couldn't care less how much the person in the other seat loves flying. Are they safe, are they competent and can we have a laugh during the day? Don't need anything more than that.

sr

Yep it is only in the last 4 years or so, that I have met and become friends with other aviators that share the PASSION that I have always had. Easy to get to know the older guys who have done it all their lives and great to meet them and hear all their stories, but it is sometimes even more fun to get to know others your age.
There is a loose networked group of us in this region (ranging from 21-28yrs) all with experience on Tigers/Nanchangs/Yak 52/Pitts etc etc, all with clear goals, and ambitions to become display pilots at one stage down the track or another. It's differcult, possibly highly unlikely, but hugely great fun and exactly what I dreamt of being involved with when I was 10.

I have always tried to encourage younger people coming through to TAKE THEIR TIME but no one listens to that, as others have said, its a pure obsession to have the RHS in an airliner. Things have changed so much....
Feel sorry for them.....

Hey guys.
New to this forum, but heard about it for years!
I agree totally with all the points you all make but being a young guy myself, thought i'd give my opinion.

Did my PPL with the help from funds from a family member, which was great fun and went to do an integrated course.
Just before you judge, the 60 grand loan is all on my head and in my name.

Now working on the dash in the right hand seat. I love the job! Don't get me wrong.
But, i have very little experience of planes other than the commercial world. I mean, yes you are interested in planes when you are growing up etc etc. I went to air shows etc etc.
But I know nothing about military planes and I have only flown the warrior/piper/seneca in the training.

Like 'speed restriction' says, the world has totally changed now in my opinion. Much more to the MPL focus (which i think is ridiculous-- and if you guys are judgemental about people with little experience, the MPL is going to make your blood boil isnt it??!
I meet people in the job and sim checks who have flown every amazing plane going! Vulcan/Red arrow pilots/Aerobatic Instructors/CAA certified pilots for signing off new builds etcetc.

And i'm there just in awe of them, thinking how on earth do i compare to these guys with my experience??! What do i say to them to make conversation about flying/

But, even though I dont have this experience, and not a lot of young guys ever will, it doesnt mean i have lost the drive to fly more varied a/c.
I'm looking into doing and aerobatics course just for fun, and to redo my lapsed single engine

The way of the world has changed, you guys must be able to see that. To a more commercial focus. I would love to do it in modular for a few years actually FLYING, as opposed to being in chage at the front of the plane. But we do hand flying all the time, and still have fun in the job.

I dont want to start a debate about flying instructors vs intergrated course, but i think young guys (including me), were scared of going down the flight instruction route due to the availability of jobs and the money required to get to that position.

Now ive got a brilliant job (yes not much experience), and i love going to work. I know the dash inside out, and feel confident i can handle any emergency under pressure to save the day.

My comparison is....
You dont have to be a racing driver to like cars
You dont have to be an experienced pilot to like flying for a career

Peace out

Not a good attitude, some day she'll bite:ouch:

" You don't have to be an experienced pilot to like a flying career"

No you don't but I bet your passengers would like you to be an experienced pilot whilst enjoying your flying career.

Fair one you got offered a great job early on and I'm sure we would have all taken it if we had that opportunity. But I think you would agree that if push came to shove and you had to fly by the seat of your pants and and really get hold of the aircraft it maybe your first time of doing so.

I agree totally that things have changed and the MPL will probably be the way the airlines go in the future. I hope when the captain and the fo both ex mpl have a situation like the Hudson that some one has taught them and given them the reactions and experience that captain had built up over years and years of flying.

Thread creep sorry, anyway what ever route you take it does not change the fact that allot of the new guys/girls don't no a DC3 from a F16 for example. And no I don't think it makes you a safer pilot but it does show an interest in the industry and actually allow you to get more from your job in terms of interest.

How many people " the paying public" would still fly on the low cost airlines if they knew that should the captain be not up to speed, they can have full faith in the 300hrs guy/girl that had the largest check book at the time.

I'm sure most of them are very capable pilots but Like F1's Mr Lewis Hamilton even when sponsored by a big named team had to work his way up.......not just yes he can drive well lets putting him in the fastest thing we can find straight away.

The hardest thing I find is that some of them think they belong there and its their right to just fly for an airline in a 737/320. Maybe its just the way it was sold to them by the great schools of the UK. Who are probably still saying its a great time to get your CPL/IR so you can be ready for the next Boom:=

There are still some coming up the hard way in our ops room learning the trade and teaching in there days off....so there will still be the odd pilot knocking about that has flown something other than a seneca and a 737.

Like to think I would not have gone right seat straight away in a 737. If I'd had the chance when I started flying but ...who knows.....the dark side is strong:E

Vanpilot
 

I'd agree that the concept seems to have been sold to those that didn't know any better when getting involved.
I was bagged by instructors when I was at school working towards my PPL when I said that I didn't think that doing the fulltime air academy type course was the answer for me. looking back, I am so glad I made that decision and knew that doing the fulltime loan course wasn't for me.

Working for a living, and now running a business that I am quite happy with and personally get alot of satisfaction out of, while instructing in various types part time and flying other cool vintage machines is just my cup of tea and I couldn't personally ask for more!

Just listen to all that is said by these highly experienced posters on here and I think new people considering these courses may have a better understanding and better preparation to make a decision.

ring way sam
 

same here mate. bush flying is where its at! have you looked into mission aviation fellowship or something similar?

I see where you are coming from, but correct me if i'm wrong (well i'm sure I will be)

But.....
In the days before this, the only real major way to become an airline pilot was to do it the modular way, PPL and become an instructor to get the hours up to a few thousand. ONLY THEN would you still only even be LOOKED at by an airline??! It was a struggle wasn't it??! There was no way of going to the airlines after a few hundred hours in a warrior/seneca and say, 'YES please give me a job'


Well, now, yes it has changed!!
I didnt start life of wanting to have aspirations to be a pilot to becoming an instructor and taking my time.
I wanted to aim for the top (ie a pilot of a big plane with responsibility), not working a life of an instructor.
When i had the opportunity of getting a career i took it. With both hands!.
I didnt turn it down thinking 'hmmm i need some more experience, i think i should instruct for a while'

If there were no airline jobs available when i were to finish training, i was considering an instructor course and doing that for a few years, no problem! Income to pay off the loan, and flying experience -invaluable1
I think anyone finishing courses, integrated or modular, are thinking this!


And quoting VANPILOT:
How many people " the paying public" would still fly on the low cost airlines if they knew that should the captain be not up to speed, they can have full faith in the 300hrs guy/girl that had the largest check book at the time.


well, in my experience, the more experienced captains i fly with, (a selected few i am saying) are so caught up in previous aircraft that they are unwilling to learn another type in completeness. They know the basics of course! New F/Os on fleets are more involved in knowing how to do things correctly, the up to date SOPs, the procedures at certain airfields, because they take time to learn them. More to do with reading things i suppose....

Captains are more experienced in the aviation world, with expected holding conditions, predicting certain situations before they happen, taking more fuel etc etc.

And we go together well. I will learn all those things whilst i am in the job!
(just like a new driver on the roads)

And talking about emergencies, with engine failure after take off, for example.
Would you prefer to have a guy who did his IR last year, and knows the THEORY behind what he is doing, and has a feel for the aircraft preventing overcontrol, and correct inputs for a balanced flight.

or maybe a captain who hasn't had a REAL engine failure drill (apart from the sim twice a year), since his IR about 20 years ago??!
I'm not slagging off captains AT ALL! Just giving an example of what 'experience' means to you.

Ironically!!! There is no desire for a selected few experienced guys to learn all you can about the aircraft, like i thrive for.
They have 'done it all before' . Which is the wrong attitude to have.

Yes, captains (NOT ALL THOUGH), would have better flying 'skills' than me i suppose, more 'feel' for certain situations.. HUDSON i suppose


BUT.... experience doesnt necessarily make you 'better' or 'safer'

RAF?? coluld be an option

"Yes, captains (NOT ALL THOUGH), would have better flying 'skills' than me i suppose, more 'feel' for certain situations.. HUDSON i suppose"


"BUT.... experience doesn't necessarily make you 'better' or 'safer'"

I would hope the Captain would have better flying skills than a 300hr F/O, what is you pic time now and how much Pic time do you have since training. Its not just hand flying skills its the general lack of decision making experience that you only gain with flying hours that concerns me.

A few contributors to this thread seem to have quite a few half baked notions:

dbriglee
Are those our only two rather polar and unrepresentative options? While FFS have their limitations the certainly are no worse at representing engine failures than your instructor and his half mil chart and furthermore can simulate a failure at lower altitude than was possible in the seneca.

That sounds more like the Hollywood version of your job rather than the correct description which can be found in your company manual. I believe it describes a team effort being lead by the captain, certainly no mention of "saving the day."

Barké
That is not true. I have no interest in cutting grass, yet when I have to do it I make a good job of it. Being mindful and conscienciously performing the task in hand (whether driving a car, cutting grass, sweeping the floor, flying an aircraft, cleaning windows) is far more important to a successful outcome than interest in the task itself.

sr

Dbriglee
 

Re:- dbriglee

Your the type of guy we all don't want in the cockpit with us, your attitude stinks. Fly** must be very proud of what they have produced.

If you think that your IR test is more valuable then years of experience and probably having actually had engine failures in those aircraft that don't take any responsibility to fly then you are so very wrong IMHO. All the guys you sit next to that have taught you how to fly those nice big shinny planes have flown the crappy oil soaked just about legal aircraft in conditions that I'm sure you wouldn't go up in on your own. Skills and experience you can't learn flying two crew airline stuff from the second you get out of flight school. There is no right way of getting your flying experience but you need to appreciate you have been exposed to a very small amount of it.

You are allowed to learn in the right seat because the Captain is sitting with you and at any given point his " experience and judgement" will make the final calls on the safety of your flight, not you.

You learn more every year that you fly and you get a little better every year, provided you don't already think you are Gods gift!!

If I can just chuck in my two penn'orth... This thread went off at its predictable tangent, and I couldn't help but respond to the 'real pilot' brigade who think that you're not worthy of an airline job unless you've served your time instructing in knackered 152s and working your way up through the ranks. To me, some of the tones from some contributors smack a little bit of jealousy. A few points I'd respond to:

Define "a real aviator". Basically someone who isn't one of those fATPLs in the right hand seat you covet?

This kind of thing annoys me. Define 'real flying'. I'd love to compare it to what exactly it is that I do when I go to work every day.

Maybe when you get into the airlines and start to fly big jets, you'll see that the Chuck Yeager 'real pilot' brigade are the ones who have the most problems because they can't get out of their 'real pilot' habits and try to fly in a way a big jet isn't designed to be flown. For example, if Airbus and my company tell me explicitly that the FDs, AP and A/THR should be on all the time, then that's what I'll do - I'll save the manual raw data heroism for the sim. I won't be switching it all off and having a 'play' because, by some twisted logic, it makes me more of a pilot.

Nice rant, and you also managed to get the 'shiny jet' and 'real pilot' comments in. No substance to back it up though...

Since when were low-houred fATPLs exclusive to the LCCs? Do some research and you'll find that some of the biggest European legacy carriers take/have taken 250hr guys. Including BA.

Quite some misconception... Three or four of the captains at my (small) base have come through integrated-style fATPL training courses and they are experienced and throroughly competent in what they do.

The way I see it is this. My airline wouldn't let me be in that seat unless they were thoroughly satisfied that I was safe to be there. There is still much about the Airbus I don't know - I learn something new about it pretty much every time I go to work. As do some of the captains I fly with. In the politest possible way, I don't have to justify my position in the right hand seat of the aircraft to people with thousands of hours worth of bush flying in the third world, who are a bit jealous they haven't got their big break. If I wasn't up to the job, my airline wouldn't let me do it.

I enjoy the job. I enjoy operating the Airbus (and 'flying' it, if you like, when I need/want to.) I enjoy the airline environment. Would I have enjoyed spending years instructing? No. Would I have considered it worthwhile to invest my time in dropping parachutes and aerial photography (taking one of the obviously thousands of available jobs in that area), to get a feel for "flying by the seat of my pants"? No. Would spending years of doing single-pilot VFR ops in crap weather made me capable of flying the Airbus better? No it wouldn't. Would I have wanted to go the the back end of the middle of nowhere flying a Caravan or a B200 to prove I'm a 'real pilot'? Not on your life.

Happy flying.

Slightly different perspective - during my flight training I met a pilot from Africa working for a very respectable company. He came to convert his papers to FAA because their company bought a November plane. Ex F-16 pilot. 300h TT on Glass. He was my safety pilot in C150 during my hour-building and couldn't get to fly the plane no matter how hard he tried. He eventually gave up after almost crashing it. That same day I was asked if I could take my instrument written with him so he could cheat and get my answers because according to himself - ALL HE EVER DID IN LIFE WAS TOWER VECTORS TO THE ILS. And did I say he thought mixture was the throttle? Please - let's not generalize.

:ugh:Zippy monster

No need to get so irate, I learnt to remain calm at all times when I flew in Africa, people who get wound up easy don't hack it that well. They are best in the RHS with a Captain taking all the stress from them and making any decisions.

You seem to shout that we are all jealous because you are in the RHS, well done. I suspect that this maybe the other way around, its always nice to have something to talk about with other pilots, do you tell them stories from your integrated course.

I'm guessing you are exactly the sort of pilot I was referring to in my very first thread.

Thank god......
 

After all the twaddle that some have posted here (including zippy') I'm just glad I work for a company with quite a small aviation department - just 4 biz-jets.

That means I get some say in who gets selected to sit in my RHS (I have the LHS so in no way covet the RHS in a 'no manual flying' tube full of SLF').

In short, there is no way I would allow many of the arrogent, inexperienced guys that post here anywhere near my aircraft.... my current FO had almost 3000 hrs in GA before he joined us, including glider tugging, instructing and quite a lot of taxi work on an old piston twin - HE KNOWS HIS STUFF AND I CAN TRUST HIS EXPERIENCE, I dont think I could say the same of a 300 hr 'school only' fATPL !

The only reason the low hours, zero experience pilots get the RHS is they are cheap, in some cases even paying for the chance to be there...

OK - end of my rant (again !)

Irate?! I was feeling quite the opposite, thanks - was just enjoying a quiet relaxing beer after a late 4 sectors. The post wasn't intended to sound irate.

Nope, I didn't say "you are all jealous". What I said, if you re-read my post, is that when you get a bunch of people complaining that low-hour fATPLs are undeserving of a jet job and that bunch of people happen to be self-titled 'real pilots', it smacks a little bit of jealousy. There's a subtle difference.

Why was it twaddle? Just because it expressed an opinion different from your own? You're entitled to it just as I am to mine, but at least bother to justify it rather than dismissing it as 'twaddle'.

In which case, apologies for the generalisation.

I note nobody has yet sought to define the terms 'real pilot' and 'real flying' though...! And I repeat my suggestion that knowing your stuff about flying a light twin piston VFR in marginal conditions really doesn't have a massive bearing on one's ability to operate a heavy jet. It's like comparing driving a bus and an F1 car - it's two completely different types of flying. Try flying a medium jet like a Seneca and you'll be summoned for a meeting in the office before you can say "flight data monitoring..."!

I totally agree with Zippy Monster, Dbriglee politely shared his opinion on the subject and because won’t match “the real pilots” opinions, he automatically becomes the “type of guy you wouldn’t want in the flight deck with you, his attitude stinks”.....
Yes, sounds like jealousy to me, and hypocrisy, typical of pprune "real pilots"

I'm with Rapha and Zippy on this one. Whilst I know jealousy is a basic human act and for pilots it will be even greater during the downturn, I think the jealousy has spiralled into insults.

As what has been said, some of the biggest carriers use 250 hour cadets on the biggest aircraft in the fleet. We have Cadet pilots come straight in as SO on the 744s. Fair enough they don't "fly" the thing for the best part of two years but they still have the Type Rating. And unlike us who moan and sweat about the 6 month sim check, these guys do it once a month - without any hands on flying!

I have more confidence in these guys' abilities than the management Captains I sometimes fly with who take a drive once every 45 days to keep current!

How about choosing an example closer to home when BA recruited 250 hr pilots?

Some of you have said you feel sorry for the pilots who haven't experienced "real flying". Why? They are of no concern to you. I'm glad some of you have had experiences of landing in dirt strips when all of a sudden a mongoose happens on the runway and you need to take evasive action.

My point is that whoever is in that R.H.S has been determined (probably by a 50 year old Chief Pilot who is part of the old-timers club ) that he/she is the best person for the job and has successfully met all criteria during the recruitment stages AND Type Rating. 250hour or 2500 hours I have always had confidence in the cadet and the Chief Pilot's decision to put them there.

I would like to add that the first posts were about having no passion and that one is not a "real" aviator if they haven't done this or that. I won't disagree or agree with that statement. What I will ask though is Who cares? And does it matter?

The cadet pilots that arrive in the cockpit probably don't have a passion for flying from what I can tell. There is no GA in Hong Kong so the love of flying (if there is any) stems from HK'ers watching jets scream over high rise buildings onto RWY 13 when they were little kids. For me that initial love of flying is as good as another cadet who loved flying ever since he took a trial flight in a Cessna out of Southend.

I would agree though that the status and glory of being a Pilot here for the National Airline is a very big incentive for the cadets that apply and for those who succeed. This means that SOs that fly with us are exceptional individuals, very professional and very quick to learn. Flight Grading in Adelaide sorts the wheat from the chaff. The fact that these guys and gals couldn't care less about piston engines doesn't affect their abilities at all.

In the next couple of years, we will be welcoming international cadets to the FD, now the programme has been extended to the world. I look forward to seeing the difference, if any. The only difference I'd expect is internationals won't be be too shocked when they hear the humour coming from Aussie Captains :ok:

What I will ask though is Who cares? And does it matter?

No it does not matter in the slightest, its just a point of interest just like the majority of subjects on pprune.

Mongoose on the runway land anyway, Elephant go around.

Avoiding the rest of the discussion about low hours etc., the initial point about people who aren't that interested in the job isn't limited to this industry. I'm a lawyer and the most FRUSTRATING people to work with are the junior ones who seem to be doing law because it's there, or because they think they'll make loads of money out of it, and don't actually have any interest in the job or law in general. They're frustrating not only because they're not interested and so are reluctant to enter into discussions about the work, but also because they don't make any effort to broaden their knowledge and make themselves better lawyers.

Funnily enough, relevant to the low hours discussion, most of those junior lawyers who aren't interested in the job are the ones who came straight through from university and haven't had any experience in the wider world. In law that extra experience generally makes you a better lawyer - I would have thought it would be reasonable to think the same about pilots.

Juno78,

Fantastic post, so true, as I mentioned earlier but has been lost on the fatpl B/S, having an interest in your industry actually makes it better for yourself and co workers.

My wife is an experienced Civil Engineer and exactly the same applies in her industry. I think it is a product of the I-pod generation ie, to get anything you press a button and it arrives. I don't think this is wrong or that my way is better but I think my route is certainly more satisfying.

Juno,

D'you know (Sorry he-he) that is an interesting last point. However, you can't even fart without it being in the SOP. I guess the reason why the whole personality/life experience skill is so important is because you spend an awful lot of time with just one person - especially on short haul.

You need to be able to engage in conversations/ discussions/ differences of opinion professionally so that after a stop over, there isn't any weird tension. Also actually having a personality is important when you are either in the cockpit or outside on a stop over.

I find it even more important when you are a 4-man (oops person) crew where the banter can be quite hearty in the cockpit and on the stop-over. You definitely don't want one person to be isolated throughout a 2-3 day trip.

Think again
 

Re; Zippy

Sorry......your inexperience kicks in again....you assume that myself or others don't "fly jets" and that for some reason our experience means we can't fly a plane the way it says it must be flown in the SOP's.

Don't forget that the Pilots that you sit next to probably wrote those SOP's I'm not trying to have a go here but you should understand that with the greatest respect you know very little about flying in your early years. I include myself in that statement.

Flying is not rocket science and most people with half a brain can do it well, but experience does and always will count. How did you learn which cells to avoid and when to avoid them. Its not by reading the book, it's sitting next to a guy that has been in one and thought he wouldn't do that again in a rush. He then shows you what the CB looks like with some story. " I once went through a cell like that and etc etc etc. So then you now know if it looks like that I'll avoid it. These experiences are gained through all types of flying but are learnt harder and faster working your way up the ladder. When you get to the point that your command is coming up it will be because you have experienced most if not all the things involved with your type of flying.....but do you really think you'll get in that left seat and not screw up ...even once. Because you will and that's what we are all on about. We have had the chance of screwing up in our flying before we got in the big shinny jets, that stops us making those mistakes (maybe) in those expensive buses. Where you guys may have to make your mistakes in them.

Well how come soo many 'pilots' struggle with things like IR test's???

"Most" :ok:

But it gets easier to do that IR stuff with a bit of experience don't you agree

I think it also important to note however that experience is a doube edged sword , espcially if the said flying is done in a relaxed or at least more relaxed enviroment. It is easy to become acustomed to those things which a pilot can be more lenient on in say glider towing (postion accuarcy , full checks e.t.c ) and then transfer these habbits, although accidently on to a higher scale of flying that demands these standards.

Althouhgh i can appreciate arguements that expericance gives the pilots skills in say people reading , team managment or maybe even a 'flying sense' but much of the mentioned flying is solo work , which would induce the opposite.

In response to the question of a 'real pilot' I think many people are stuck on ideal now lost in the commercialthe world. Adding real to a job simply implies a more direct form of the job , a 'real' banker for instance would trade in a town market with phyiscal coins , whereas a 'normal' banker would deal in computerised figures. However i struggle to see how a 'real' of anything can be more valid than its 'normal' brethren.

Reagrds

Tim

I didn't assume anything... I was just trying to counter the assumption that all 250hr fATPLs are rubbish and unworthy. I already apologised if my response contained too much of a generalisation of the group to whom I was replying. Of course it would be ridiculous to suggest that those with thousands of hours experience in different types of aviation are unable to fly jets to SOPs, and I actually wasn't suggesting that at all.

Absolutely I agree I know far less than those I fly with - I wouldn't deny that for a second. I learn every time I go to work and I wouldn't expect this to change. I've lost count of the number of times I've been to work and thought 'crap, I should probably know that' about various things to do with flying. Does that mean my opinions are invalid though?

Of course not. You seem to be inferring from my posts that I'm on some sort of personal mission to promote one way of learning against another. This is absolutely not the case. Of course I expect that one day, when I eventually make it to the left seat (which I hope I will do), I will get many things wrong. Part of life is learning from your mistakes.

I don't want to drag the thread too far off track. The points I made were only ever intended to defend the general corner of the low-hour F/Os who were coming in for what I considered to be a bit of unfair flack. I would suggest however that in response to:

People make mistakes in them all the time - I screw up myself and I see others screwing up. We will and do learn from it. If the company thought the risk was too high, or generally unacceptable, they wouldn't let us sit there. It doesn't matter what type of flying you do, the time you stop learning is the time to call it a day. I just have a different opinion to those of the self-titled 'real pilot', 'real flying' etc. disposition. If we agree to disagree on that, so be it.

Well come on lets be serious here. Where are you honestly going to get 500hrs Multi pilot time before gaining employment with an airline? I can imagine some have done it but they will be in the minority.

All experience is good, and all flying is real. Do your own thing and don't hate!

Peace.