How do ab-initio graduates afford SSTR programmes e.g. with Ryanair?
 

The majority are lucky enough to have parents who can fund their career or at least be in a position to offer a loan with preferential rates and repayment options ;). Others have had previous well paying careers (usually in IT/Communications) or have remortgaged their homes.

HSBC used to offer loans to pilots but last I heard these are only now available to integrated schools, these generally need to be secured against properties anyway.

i studied with a girl who got huge inheritance and stashed aside about £50k for RYR scheme.

Let's see: 80K integrated training + 25K RYR + 15K interests = 120K.

Many people don't realise that for that kind of money, they can run their own flight ops owning their own aircraft.

Why don't people come together in a group of say 15 people, train as a group at a discounted rate with a flight school spending 35K+10K TR, and use the remainder 75K per pilot to buy a used small jet or turboprop, start-up their own ops?

Aircraft tend to gain or at least maintain value over years, employment is not an issue when you hire yourself, etc...
Plus, when you have a group of 15 richkids, finding customers through their parents should not be such a difficult task.

Does this sound crazy?
It's not as crazy as throwing 120K to work for a LCC on an interim contract.

Don't go to Oxford or FTE. Save yourself 35K plus and get the same licence and the same skills required to pass a Ryanair assessment. Put aside the 35K that you saved by going modular and give Ryanair 22K for your training. Do what you like with the 13K you have left over - you will need it when you are Line Training! Plus, as contraversial as this may sound, you have the added bonus of not seeing the airline industry through the disillusioned eyes of some of the OAT cadets that I have come across. The ones that 'wouldn't be seen dead in a turboprop' and the others that go home crying to mummy and daddy because the big bad man at BA told them 'no thanks.'

And by the way, before I take the inevitable flack, not all integrated and especially Oxford students behave this way. I know a lot of good guys, but recently I have come across an incredible amount of assh**es which really don't deserve the jobs they are in. Rant over, sorry.

Not going to trash you, Kilo. Because I agree. I've come across a few of those types myself lately. Which amazes me really because it's a fairly new phenomenon. Pilots as are rule are self selecting and rather single minded in the ambitions but of late there I've met a few and heard of others who want to go straight to jets. No other flying will do. :confused: They will actually turn down a flying job because they don't like flying 'little aeroplanes'. The problem is that one or two of them actually get straight into jets and decide it's not really their thing after all.

Without any evidence to suggest it. I would think that most if not all come from integrated courses because modular pilots must of neccessity be rather more dedicated and self motivated to achieve their goal. Hard work though an integrated course may be. It is very structured and you really have nothing else to do but study and train. Like the military. I always imagine the typical disillusioned 'cadets' are similar. Probably from comfortable background, never had to work to hard for anything but did well in school anyway. Didn't really know what they wanted from life but knew it wasn't any boring career like Law or finance. Didn't fancy the military either. But hmm, airline pilot looks good. Fancy uniforms, good pay, travel, looks exciting. Daddy and Mummy have the cash to indulge their whim, so off to OAA they go.

I came across one or two older experienced pilots like this, mainly I must say, products of the sponsored cadet schemes. From their attitude you have to wonder why they don't just pack it in and do something else and let people who like the job get a look in.

It's the same in every profession, there are plenty of lawyers, accountants, Doctors etc who hate their jobs. But once sucked in they can't give up on the salary.

Kilo,

Very well put. Im sick of hearing these kids moaning about not being able to get jobs with there 180 hours, and saying they have no choice but to go buy a type rating.

Just look at the maths, OAT 70k + living and then the better part of 30k to go work for ryanair. Dont tell anyone who works for them, but the rest of us are laughing at you!

Another factor is that by blowing that much money on an integrated course, some people put themselves in a position where they can't afford to service their debt on a turboprop salary. The only way they can make the numbers work is to find a jet job, thus slamming the door on the majority of 'first airline job' opportunities in the UK.

To be honest, I don't really get the wannabe's, at least some of them. I'm a wanna be myself just doing PPL and starting ATPL ground school by the end of this year. It's a fact that sometime in the future I will want to go to work for airlines and I would kick myself if I didn't. I'm doing the training modular way. It will cost me about 38K but there will be some extra's added so I guess I'll spend up to 40K but.. this isn't 70K + living. Another thing is I work 40 hours a week to get what I want, I buy the 10 hours block and by the end of the month I need about 200/300 pound which my parents put in for me. They're helping me out and I got thank them sometimes! My day looks like this.. I get up at 6 am, need to get to work for 8 and it takes me a while to get there. I work until 4/5 pm. I'm home by about 6 pm I eat something and then study for another 2/3 hours. Sometimes on weekends after studying I go out until about 12 pm because I have to get up in the morning and to be honest.. for some it may seem easy.. but this is my first job and sometimes as much as I hate it I have to be there by 6 am to get what I really want from life. So wannabe's going integrated way are just going the easy way.. but they spend a hell lot of money on training, with the 10K or so left if I had the 70K (including type-rating) I rather rent a plane and fly somewhere and enjoy myself..

But all I really always dreamed of was basically flying, being in the air and being free, but I would love to try flying on a Boeing or Airbus, beforehand I will work hard to become and instructor, it's another thing I want to do not to just build up hours like most. I will teach for few years, maybe after 2/3 years move to a charter company and maybe then to airlines with quite good experience? Because Boeing's and Airbuses.. it's a plane, you fly and it has it own experiences but I want to get some 'real' flying experience before I move to airlines, most of you know what I'm talking about ;)

Hmmm, integrated is the "easy way" daria? Slightly warped view there me thinks.

You can't view it like that - some people are not as disciplined as you might be in their training, or simply don't want the hassle of organising it themselves. Furthermore, the hour-building section of modular training is largely substituted for time with an instructor on an integrated course, in a more structured environment, which may be more suitable for some making the step to a structured airline environment than others.

It really depends on your situation, but at least have some empathy for the other side - one day you will sit next to someone who has persued a different course of training than yourself.


I think more people that you realise live at home, and are supported by parents - I also believe that you will find few wealthy parents among that cadre and many who have remortgaged for their children's dreams.

There's no such thing as an easy way. The choice is between the expensive way and the really expensive way. :)

It's not easy, you do the same stuff. What I meant was you take a loan, mortgage your house and you have the money instead working X hours a week to fly for an hour or two, you go into the integrated school, you live there you fly nearly every day if the weather etc is ok. It seems a lot of easier. If I was at integrated school I probably wouldn't be so happy about that too, because to be honest I like my life the way it is right now, maybe sometimes it's a complete mess and I don't have much time for myself but I'm working hard for something I love, somehow for me the modular way it's better to train because you have to prove your worth it somehow, I don't really know how to express myself. For me integrated school seems a lot easier than modular, but everyone has a personal opinion about that.

Daria,

You only get one shot get getting through all the phases with acceptable results, don't make it any harder than it needs to be. I completed training modular style by studying and training in my free time by getting up at silly o'clock, managing family life and holding down a demanding career. How hard you ended up working isn't really all that relevant, how well you did is. I'm not meaning to imply probable failure, but from my experience I can't recommend your approach.

I'm not making it harder than it needs to be. Becoming a pilot isnt the easiest career I could have choosed but I'm working hard to get what I want, I'm studying hard and quite a lot to get good results not just acceptable.

There is only one way to go and that is INTEGRATED.

Back to topic. How do they raise the money ?

Most of the students have taken a second loan to cover the training costs, BUT these are only available if there is a job at the end of the type rating course.

Several students already have a student loan as well as the integrated training loan of £50000 and have been turned down by HSBC for a further advance on this factor.
Others have gone elsewhere for the loan, to their own bank for example after showing through their results that they have the commitment and desire to succeed, a bank manager is a difficult beast to convince these days.

There is also the bank of mum and dad, but with the credit crunch thats closing down except for the very rich, or lottery winners.

There are ways to finance the extra cost, but without a job offer its a no go, I am sorry to say.

I haven't been on this website for years, and I now realise why...some people are full of jealous, chip on shoulder sh1te, to be blunt!

Being an airline pilot is a very serious career and one in which learning is a career long process. The most important part of this ongoing knowledge building process is the foundation...ie initial training. This cannot be gained as the result of a part time hobby or after work activity, it is in itself a full time job. Anyone who aims to gain "the knowledge and skills to pass the ryanair interview" has completely missed the point, the aim is to know as much as possible to be the best pilot possible. Aim high and back youself, don't plan for if you fail, go and make sure you don't, whats wrong with aiming to go straight on to jets, go work for it and make it happen.

My whole point is this...go to the best school to receive the best possible training, put your head down and put all your efforts into training rather than trying to save money and spending time coming up with crazy images of integrated students who have it all handed to them. In doing that the job opportunities come automatically because you have earned them. For people who have gone in with this philosophy and who have found themselves in the position of having to spend more money at the end, then this is something they deal with if it arises, at least they tried.

In summary...stop whining, gossiping, scrimping, scraping and speculating, go out and train to be a pilot and if you are good enough the opportunities will be there at the end, dont aim to fail.

Integrated - the only way?! Are you joking me now?

Pilot I agree with you. Getting all the money from your parents and getting everything handed to you, that's not hard work. Maybe when you study yeah,, but modular shows that you really want to become a pilot, that you really care and will try as hard as you can to get there in the end.
And once again.. 'flying' doesn't mean flying a B737 for BA, it doesn't matter what you fly what matters is that you fly and it doesn't matter if it's a Cessna or an Airbus. Because most of you say.. you want to become a pilot and by that you mean fly just for airlines. That's not the real flying. Don't you all wannabe's want to get some real flying exprience before moving on to airlines?

Training............
 

I just wana fly baby.............

I dont care who for and what, i just want to fly fly fly...

Take care.......well put Daria-ox.

Regards

TWW:ok:

For anyone with an fATPL whether having been through a modular or integrated route being in a position to finance that SSTR could be crucial. (ab initio's can be modular too.)

I wouldn't like to raise the cost of the fATPL course, get the licence, pass an assessment and be offered a place on a TR course, only to have to go to a bank in the current credit crunch environment and ask for £25k particularly if I'm currently unemployed (having just been training full time for a number of months), with already significant debt (some or all of the cost of that modular or integrated training) and then be turned down by the banks as too great a risk.

The numbers might be larger for integrated grads as the course to fATPL is generally more expensive than modular, but the issue, planning your finances for every aspect of your training including such undesirables as partials, retests, SSTR's remains the same.

I wouldn't gamble and stretch to fund a course to fATPL and MCC without factoring in the possible need to pay for a SSTR/Instructors rating at the end, and of course consider that you may need to return to/find alternative non flying employment which will pay enough to service any debt you have from the course and maintain your currency so that you'll be sharp enough to pass the next assessment you're offered.

To answer the original posters original question: How do ab initio grads afford an SSTR? Magic.

TWW, That's the truth and most of us agree with it, but some wannabe's are just pi$$in people off because they want to fly just for an airline. But what's the point going straight to airlines? For some it works out. I was on holidays in Poland not that long ago. I went to visit a flying school near my old house, every week there's a group meeting of the pilot student club, I decided to go to one of the meetings and to be honest I was shocked after what I heard there. I am a wannabe as lot of us and the whole group. The meeting went quite well, at the end of it I got to talk to few Polish wannabe's and a hell lot of British wannabe's. Most of them came over to Poland for the air races and joined the club for a while as it's in the building next to airport at which the race was taking place. I spoke to them about training the modular and integrated way, nearly all of them didn't even enjoy their PPL from what they've said and they want to fly Boeings/Airbuses! Most of them thinks that they will get a job with 250 hours in their logbook, when I said that I was going to instruct for a while they said that I wont be a pilot :} but an instructor and that PPL still doesn't make me a pilot. I was shocked! Private Pilot License, it says Pilot License and even though they said it still doesn't make me a pilot if I don't fly for big airlines. That's mad! You're a pilot from the moment you have your PPL don't you think? They said I'm totally stupid going the modular way because for them it's pointless because if I went integrated I would have got a job straight away, and we have to agree, that's still not the truth.. . I just don't get how irrotating and stupid are some wannabe's. They don't know a damn thing about the industry but they still go for it and I bet that some of them won't like their jobs after a year or so, they didn't even have the flying bug, the motivation.. don't get them :ugh:

daria,

There are a lot of misinformed people out there, unfortunately they are usually the ones who have it all on a plate. If they had to make an effort they wouldn't bother. They may well be bored of the job within a few years (if they get a job!), but I suspect that doesn't matter to them much aslong as they can pull birds with their uniform. Don't let it get to you, just get on with what you're doing and be happy. I'd still say the majority of people are motivated by a love of flying and aviation and that's what gets them by. Most people are happy to fly whatever, some only want to fly jets but you have to appreciate that this isn't always due to an 'I only want to fly for airlines' attitude, but often because they would be unable to service their loan on any pay other than airline pay.

Training
 

Your a pilot the minute you earn a pilots licence irregardless of the privileges. That's like saying your not qualified/licenced driver because you don't drive an articulated lorry and get paid for it!

There is nothing wrong with going down the modular route. It's been the established route for donkeys of years and it certainly works! 80% of low hour pilots that join the airlines are newbies that have gone down the modular route. The Guild of Air Pilots and Navigators (GAPAN) will happily back this up for you.

It'll be hard for you to get an objective view if you specifically ask 'wannabes' that have already started training. Most trainee pilots are quite defensive of their decisions and the routes they have followed. Training & education are areas that sit quite deeply with people alongside such things as religion and money! :}

I always thought and been told that everyone is meant to do what they love, appreciate and something they won't get bored of in a few years time. I don't understand how some wannabe's are just so foolish. I wonder what they would do if they had to go the modular way..

I started when I was 18, used my full time job to fund my PPL and hour building, stock piled some cash then done my ATPL's CPL and IR. It took me 4 years to get my IR with only a career developement loan (8k). The banks then financed my RYR TR. Not everyone takes out massive loans and completes the training in 16 months. Get a job and take your time. 4 years is the same time period as a respected university course.

Wbryce - I totally agree.

Daria,

I don't believe you have the experience or knowledge to slag those pilots who decide to do it the integrated route or those that wish to jump straight into the airlines.

I understand you have an interest in local flying but at the same time you need to understand that different people want different things. I would much rather fly an Airbus or a Boeing than Twin Otter, not because I don't appreciate the skill and knowledge required to fly a twin, but my ultimate goal in life is to fly these aircraft and so it would be common sense for me to try and get onboard of these aircraft as quickly as possible using the quickest route.

I'm not trying to suggest integrated flying is the best route, but many people get stuck in the integrated routes because of the shiney new aircraft, the fancy name and fantastic marketing. It doesn't make them fools.

I personally am doing the Modular training route, with the ambition to fly large aircraft as quickly as possible with a large airline. Not that I would turn down a job with the likes of Loganair though :ok:

Im not slagging pilots off, I'm mainly talking about daft wannabe's.. I know that some people would want to get to airlines as quick as they can. but what about those who doesn't have a damn idea about aviation and go for integrated school because it seems 'cool'?

Big planes - Little planes
Props - Jets
Modular - Integrated
Lifestyle - Money (or both ;) )

Different strokes for different folks, there is far too much jealousy in this game and it's mostly from those who have little knowledge, ability or aptitude.

It's a long road to the top, best not to cultivate that chip early.

Regards

MP
:ok:

Awwwww yeah....
 

Life is indeed too short to get annoyed with other people. Do what you're going to do. Do it the way you want to do it. Accept that opinions are like ars£hol£s (i.e. everyone's got one and no-one really wants anyone else's), and that there are often many solutions to a given problem.

Saves on stomach linings and tooth enamel IMHO

:cool:

Merc,

Couldn't have put it better myself, far too much moaning on here. Keep your eyes on were your heading and let the others take their own path.

Daria,

Sorry. I haven't met anyone in my life who wants to do an integrated course because it's "cool" maybe its perhaps because your talking to daft wee 15 year olds that don't understand the meaning of money.

Stop worrying about what others are doing and aim for what you want in life.

I met an 18 year old who said 'it's cool'. I'm not worrying about others, just lately I've been thinking how stupid some wannabe's are, they don't have a clue what they do but they do it.

daria-ox

Is it sour grapes I detect, might you have failed the selection to get onto an integrated course ?

If you have not tried then maybe you should as you will learn a lot about yourself, and if you really have what it takes to get to the top in this career.

The selection procedure to get into the likes of OAA is not rocket science, but one thing it does is separate the men from the boys, and the find those that are motivated to succeed whatever their age.

Stop talking (typing) and listen, for when you know that life is 2/3rds listening and 1/3rd talking you will achieve your goals.

While this downturn is here SSTR's and probably the integrated route will be the quickest and best path to an airline job over the next 18 to 24 months.
If you cant afford this route yet, wait and save that cash until you can.

Day_Dreamer,

How long do you think it would take most people to save over 80k?? A number of years, by which time you could easily get a job by doing the modular course AND do it for half the price.

If you have 80k sitting about, go for the integrated course you will most likely get a job as soon as you leave. If not, then the modular course will suit you, having an 80K loan isn't a good start in life especially when your in your early twenties.

Daria,

You get many immature 18 year olds still sadly, when you hear a mature wannabe say they are joining it because the course is "cool" I give you permission to hit them with the nearest object :ok: (joking of course)

Are you serious in thinking that people only ever don't go to integrated schools because they fail the selection?

What's wrong with the GAPAN aptitude testing?

And another thing I'd consider with aptitude testing and modular students is that they all havea PPL before progressing onwards and so have already demonstrated they have the foundations. Integrated students on the other hand have to be tested due to the fact that most of them do not have any flying experience.

There are advantages to Integrated courses but can't think of many - PIC time 50hrs less than Modular route for CPL.

From experience and mine is from the Modular side, Integrated would I'm guessing suit someone with the money and who knows themselves well enough to know they couldn't motivate to study at home (but not everyone). Anyone working can pass the ATPL's with hard work put in during the evening - dedication & commitment!

By and large some good points raised by all previous and I tend to agree from what I hear on the inside regarding recruitment (not everyone), which is that airlines are tending to find Modular students have more drive and passion as they have proved they can motivate and are passionate, not just loaded (again, not everyone though).

One thing I would say to anyone about to splash out on training the Integrated route coming from an economist point of view, is research, research, research. We are going into a very difficult period and there are lots of Pilots both past and present with no jobs due to over borrowing and salaries not matching repayments.

The so called 'Doom & Gloom Merchant' phrase is misused and quoted often by the confused. Being a realist is the approach of the better prepared person. Have a dream like I have and work to it with a schedule but ultimately stay in touch with training organisations (plural) and get a general picture of what is happening around you. Speak to as many Pilots as you can who ARE employed and find as much information out as you can.

DO NOT read too much from PPRuNe as you will find most Pilots (working) avoid it like the plague.

Good Luck

:)

I didn't want to go through the integrated way. I could have my parents mortgaging our house for 80K, but seriously, I rather do it myself and show that I can do it. I rather work for it than take this amount of money from my parents or work for it for the next 5 years, it's a fact that they do help me financially but I rather pay as I go. I have a job which gets me enough money to get through the modular way, and another thing, I don't want to go straight to airlines as you have probably read before, so going integrated for me isn't the way. I rather work a little bit harder knowing that in the future I worked hard for it instead getting everything on plate.

Sometimes really I hate my days, I work and study, work and study, at weekends I go out but most of time I have to work, but at the end of the day I know I do it because I want my dreams to come true and to be honest, that motivates me a lot. I had a choice of going the integrated and modular, I choosed modular because I had my reasons. The main one was the money, my parents could have taken a loan but I rather prove to them and make them proud that I've done it all by myself and that I worked for it.

It's a fact that it will take longer than integrated, but so what? I'm young and I have lot of time. I want to get some different expierences on flying before going to airlines too so I'll do few conversions after I gain my PPL, I'll definately go to fly few hours in Poland and Spain, then come back, do the CPL, and few different courses including FI and work as a instructor for a while maybe then with time, I will be ready to go to airlines, because for me if I had 250 hours flown I wouldn't want to go to airlines I rather get some real flying done before I do.

And as BerksFlyer said, what's wrong with GAPAN aptitude testing?

Mercenary Pilot - i couldnt have put it better myself :ok:

What ever route people choose to take is their business only and is not for you all to slag off. You make assumptions based on little known facts. I chose the route based on years and years of thought, work, research and i chose what is best for me. I was 19 when i started and i went Integrated not because i thought it was "cool" but for many reasons which are my own. I have many many friends in the industry both from integrated, military and modular routes - at the end of the day we all end up at the same place at first, the right hand seat and therefore it doesnt actually matter how you get there.

In answer to the topic, i funded my TR from a mixture of an unsecured loan and money from a previous job. And all this about 30k for a RYR type rating....well its the rumour brigade again i can assure you its alot less.

Its more expensive than the FTO tests.