Do I need to unfreeze my ATPL by 30 Jun 02?
 

Situation: not looking for airline job for 6-12 years. Have frozen ATPL, can unfreeze with a fair amount of hard grind (hour-building) and £3-6000.

Opinion 1: I'm so close to getting the full licence, I might as well put the extra work in and go for it.

Opinion 2: there's no point, a CPL/IR will be perfectly employable when I come to look for a job due to the 500hr multi-crew multi-engine JAR requirement for ATPL (I won't have any/many of these hours). Get some sleep, save some money.

I would be grateful for any pointers that people more in the know could give me. The money isn't too much of a problem, but I'll be hour-building every weekend, evening etc to achieve this - not ideal.

Cheers!

As far as I am aware......You have grandfather rights! I phoned the CAA to ask the very same question. They did point me towards their web site. On the Flight Crew Licencing section it has a FAQ's section..I think it is in there.
Good Luck. :)
Eff Oh.

Splosh,

I'm not clear as to what you are asking, but have you explored the posibility of changing to a JAR CPL + IR. This then gives you a rolling 7 years (from last IR renewal) to upgrade to an ATPL, I guess due to the 500 hour multi crew requirement.


Looks like my way out of the current mess, and I'm in a similar position to you. My fear is that the Gatwick mob are prone to changing things almost at will without warning or notification, and as far as I'm concerned, nothing is guranteed.

PS (fingers crossed)

Splosh,

Make some calculations : if U fly an average of 4h per w-e (considering U probably won't be able to fly each & every w-e), that would give U an extra 200h by the end of June 2002. Is it what U're missing to de-freeze ?
If so, I'd go for it. If U need a lot more than that, it may indeed be wiser to save some money for now. The magic number most airlines are looking for is 1,000, so if U already have that, U're in good shape even with a CPL-IR "only".

MF55

Eff Oh - I think we only have grandfather rights if we have the licence in the first place, ie you can't get a JAA ATPL with CAA CPL. Sadly! But thanks for the pointer to the CAA website, I haven't been there for a while and they've added a lot of useful gen.

P_s - I'm asking whether I _need_ to hour-build (dull dull dull) to get the ATPL, or am I wasting my time when a CPL will be employable in a few years' time. I'm unlikely to get (m)any multi hours in the next 7 years, so the rolling upgrade thingy with a JAR CPL won't help. Boo. As for the CAA's changes, they've left us all upset at some time or another, I'm sure!

MF55 - I wake up in a cold sweat from the calculation_nightmare most nights! I'm going to be somewhere between 200 and 250 hours short, so as you say it is do-able.

Thanks for your help guys, I'll press on for the meanwhile then. Good luck with your own licencing demons!

A National ATPL will look better
than a 'frozen' JAR ATPL after
June 2002

Eff Oh

I have some specific questions relating to my current position which I won't bore everyone else with. The only CAA web site I can find is www.caa.co.uk and is very non specific. Could you post back or email me the url.

Many thanks.

Falcon,

The site you need is www.srg.caa.co.uk

Splosh,

I'd check out the requirements for ATPL issue vary carefuly, particularily with night and intrument hour requirements. I need just under 200, but of those nearly half have to be night, and that's the problem. I've done over 400 in year in the past without instructing, so I know I could get the 1500 at a push, but short of flying all night in winter (not a prospect I would relish in a single), I cannot see a way to make the hours up.

Have fun doing it.

PS

I'm in a similar position...I think
950hrs all single, uk ATPL exams passed perfA and valid IR. [frozen ATPL]

CAA website says by converting my CAA CPL to a JAR one I can get my first multi pilot type endorsed but my JAR licence will be issued without JAR theory credit.Does this mean I can never hold a JAR ATPL without further exams and hence no possible command ?

Any comments
W T V V

wtvv,

My understanding is that you should be able to convert to the JAA equivalent of a frozen ATPL. In order to unfreeze it, there is an extra requirement (at the moment) of 500 hours multicrew, so they have also allowed you 7 years to gain that. I've not heard this thing about loosing theory credits, but if thats the case I'll stick pen to paper and get it in writing from the jury at Gatwick.

PS

Vector Victor

You WILL NOT lose the theory and you will
get a JAA ATPL when you have 500 h multi-crew

RV

RVR and Polar Stereo

Thank you very much for the info. I was reading GID 36 note 4 from the CAA website which mentions losing the ATPL credit if you have less than 500 multi crew.I did not realise I had 7 years to gain the 500 multi crew.I presume this 'note 4' I was reading just applies to those who do not obtain 500 multi crew within the 7 year period.

Thanks again , W T V V

RVR 800 I agree.

I have UK CPL/IR (Frozen ATPL)and 980 hours. My understanding is that when I have accumulated 500 hours multi-crew, necessary night hours etc. I will be eligible for the issue of a JAA ATPL. There is no limit on the length of validity of the CAA ATPL exams.

All,

I'm let to understand that another good reason to convert to the JAA licence is that you get a rolling 7 years from your last IR renewal to unfreeze the ATPL. IE, every time you renew your IR, you get another 7 years.

Usual caveats regarding moving goal posts apply.

PS

Vector Victor

As polar states its a rolling 7 years
so its even better than your post states ..

[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 28 June 2001).]

Dear all, and P_S in particular...

Does anyone know where this 7 year deadline to get JAR ATPL from CAA ATPL issue is written down? Anywhere on the web?

Does this mean that, assuming I get a CAA ATPL and they don't move the goalposts in the meantime ("CAA ATPLs will cease to exist as of next year" etc), I need to get the 500hr multi in 7 years from CAA ATPL issue? Which I won't. So I might as well not bother with the CAA ATPL, just stick to my CPL/IR (fATPL).

Just a thought.

!

Splosh,

In answer to your question, I don't think this is written down. It's a bit like a secret map to navigate around a mine field.

As I understand it, it's an 'implied' solution, which also worries me with the current wobbly goal posts. What they have said is that you can convert a current CPL IR to a JAR CPL/IR (R). If you have more than 500 P1 (I think), they will remove the restriction (R). The ATPL written passes are also credited to you, and remain valid for 7 years from your last IR renewal. This is in the JAR stuff.

Hope it helps. My advice if you are worried about it is to write to them directly, asking for answers to your specific questions, and also asking them not to send you the answers with a compliment slip attached to AIC's. Give me an email address and I can give you a name of someone to send your stuff to in person. Works for me.

PS - usual caveates apply.

Unfreezing ATPL
 

Anybody know the current requirements for unfreezing an ATPL after a CAP509 course? Does P2 time still only count as half?

No! From what I have learned p2 hours now count as 1.0 hours, you also need around 100 hours night!Go to the CAA website and have a look at ATPL requirements. If YOU have 1500 hundred hours with a proportion night you may be pleasently surprised!!!

Unfreezing ATPL - subtle change
 

It was pointed out to me recently that the CAA ATPL unfreezing requirements had subtly changed - the night hours requirement has now become 100 hrs P1 not 100 hours TT (see the GID on the subject, sorry I don't have a reference). If you are from the CAA and are reading this please tell me a) it's not true and b) if it's true why has it been changed at this late stage.
BASTARDS!:mad::( :(

I can tell you it is partially true for having experienced the inconvenience of a rejected application last October.
Night time as P1, P2 or P1 US (has to be signed the P1) will be taken into account for the 100 hours night required.
I got lucky (twice I suppose) because I got a job in December and following that, I did a fair amount of night flying. it allowed me to clear the mini requirements without further problem.

DB6
Not sure what you mean by "it has been changed at this late stage". I might be wrong but when I applied in October, I had simply misread the requirements so this isn't exactly new, new.

Good luck anyway

Have a look at the CAA-SRG website and it all becomes clear.
If you don't have Adobe Acrobat, here's the quote from GID 25 Dec 01. ATPL Hours.
Part 2, Table 1, part (e)
Night flight as pilot in command (PIC) or as Co Pilot (PIC/US or P2) minimum hours = 100

UK ATPL issued this March with 100hrs night TT (not P1). 25 hours P1 or P1u/s is the requirement. Checkout the SRG website as suggested.

Good luck.

DB6 - Chill, Winston! Are you talking about a UK ATPL(A) or a JAR/FCL ATPL(A)?

As far as I'm aware, if it's a UK ATPL(A) that you're after, then before 30 Jun 2002 you need to have achieved 100 hours Night flying as Pilot of Aeroplanes or Helicopters, must include 50 hours P1C, P1C U/S or P2 of Aeroplanes - including 25 hours P1C or P1C U/S cross-country flying of Aeroplanes of which 5 must be as P1C including 10 take offs and landings plus 2 cross-country flights as P1C terminating at an aerodrome not less than 65 nautical miles from the point of departure (which may be flown in helicopters).

Whereas the night requirement for a JAR/FCL ATPL(A) is for 100 hours Night flight as Pilot-in-Command (P1C) or as Co-Pilot (P1C U/S or P2).

Suggest that you give the CAA a ring - and they really aren't 'bar stewards' any more- honest! Incidentally, if you've got an urgent need to complete your night hours before 30 Jun 02, then e-mail me!

It might also be the decent thing to do to change the heading for this thread slightly?

He's got a bloody temper on him that DB6 - you can't take him anywhere ;)

He's not that bad - a few threats, some swearing, the occasional stabbing - nothing serious.

You'd be like that too if you'd flown with me more often :D

Aha! Thanks BEagle, it becomes clear. I was working to the GID in my grubby mitts which details the UK ATPL requirements, towards which I am inching. I was recently shown an updated GID detailing what are evidently the JAR requirements and got a bit batey as a result, which as Luke and Chocks will testify is totally out of character :D . Therefore, sorry CAA, didn't mean it, however JAA....BASTARDS!
(Just to clarify, my original BASTARDS! was referring to the injustice of the system - which means that I will probably be about 30 night hours short by the deadline as I can't afford a trip to USA what with apprentice pilot cub 2 on the way - not specifically the CAA, who I have found aren't bad eggs.)
Plus it's one of the few expletives that one can utter in all its glory on PPrune. Marvellous.

BASTARDS! You're right. :D

Further to my last, and I stand to be corrected on this, on examination of the UK requirements a sneaky little (no dual flying) has been inserted into the requirements for 100 hrs TT. That being the case, back to my original : BAAAASTAAAARDS!!!!!!!
This GID was sent to a mate of mine by the CAA when he asked them about the current requirements for the UK ATPL earlier this year. My GID was from last year; the change has been made since then. I rest my case.

Time Limit to ATPL exams
 

Is there any limit to the amount of time you can take to complete the ATPL theory exams and unfreeze your license? I seem to recall hearing 5 years, but I don't know it that was a rumour or not.

I never thought this question would be a consideration, but I guess it has to be now...

Elnino- if you're still taking ATPL theory exams, you don't have a frozen ATPL. That only comes into the equation when you have passed all the exams and flight tests and are waitng for the hours to pass the 1500 TT etc (i.e you have a CPL with ATPL theory). If you have a current IR, then the ATPL exams credits stay with you for 7 years past your last IR test, which should be long enough to unfreeze it all

Why all the rush to unfreeze ATPLs?

What good is an ATPL without Multi-pilot time?

I had a Frozen ATPL and recently paid the fee and got a JAR CPL with ATPL knowledge credit. There was no requirement other than to cough up the fee and the same rules apply to the ATPL credit on the JAR licence with regard to the IR.

Me thinks that paying the JAR fee is far cheaper than paying for lots of hours.

DFC

In fact, not only have I ensured that my ATPL exam credit remain subject to the old 7 year after IR requirement. BUT, I have a licence which is far more valuable than any NATIONAL licence.

Perhaps the money I spent on the 1 for 1 licence ( and I still hold a NATIONAL licence) was very, very , very well spent.

MMMMMM How much for 100hours night time???

How much for a JAR licence???

Who has lost out then ????????????????????

DFC

Unfreeze JAA CPL without skill test ?
 

In the JAA system you can't unfreeze a CPL/frozen license without a skill test on a multi pilot aeroplane as pilot in command. Does the UK CAA really unfreeze UK issued JAA CPL/frozens without requiring a skill test ? I have by far passed all the requirements for a JAA ATPL, all I need is a skill test on a MPA as pilot in command. I even have a skill test on a MPA as copilot only, it's not enough. If you are in doubt, read JAR-FCL 1.295 (pasted below).

I know that the UK national system has a magic wand feature of unfreezing a UK CPL/frozen without a skill test, but in most other JAA countries, there is/has been a skill test requirement before the issue of the ATPL, even before JAA.

Whether a JAA CPL/frozen and an JAA ATPL are equally worth, I would say no. ATPL's open far more doors that CPL's. They also "guarantee" that you have passed at least one skill test as PIC on a multi pilot aeroplane. Unless it is a UK ATPL, of course, because as I can see it you can get a UK ATPL on a Piper Seneca, right ?

By the way, "(see AMC FCL 1.220 part B)" in the text below means REAL multi pilot aeroplanes, not King Airs, Metroliners, B1900's etc, which are all Single Pilot Aeroplanes according to JAA. Many pilots think they will do, but look it up yourself in AMC FCL 1.220 part B if you don't believe it.


JAR-FCL 1.295 Skill
An applicant for an ATPL(A) shall have
demonstrated the ability to perform, as pilot-in-
[command of an aeroplane type certificated for]
a minimum crew of two pilots under IFR (see
AMC FCL 1.220 part B), the procedures and
manoeuvres described in Appendices 1 and 2 to
[JAR-FCL 1.240 and 1.295 with a degree of
competency appropriate to the privileges
granted to the holder of an ATPL(A).
The ATPL(A) skill test may serve at the
same time as a skill test for the issue of the
licence and a proficiency check for the
revalidation of the type rating for the aeroplane
used in the test and may be combined with the
skill test for the issue of a multi-pilot type
rating.
(a)
(b)
[Amdt. I , Oi.06.OOJ

5 years to unfreeze the ATPL
 

1) Would this be after passing the IRT ?
2) If one was flying in the right hand seat with a frozen ATPL would yours exam credits revert to CPL, even though people tend not to sit the CPL exams these days prior to the ATPL's ?

Where did you get the 5 year figure from Base Leg?

As far as I'm aware, the ATPL exam credits remain valid as long as the last IR re-validation in your CPL is less than 7 years old. As long as you keep your IR valid, there's no limit. And I don't recall ever hearing 5 years as a limit for anything. :confused:

FFF
-------------

As I understood it, the 5 year rule only applied to those in pursuit of the UK CAA ATPL. If you haven't done that by now then I think you're too late. My FTO explained it to me that so long as you have your CPL issued within certain period (3 yrs?) your ATPL credits remain alive indefinately. This is all because of the JAA regs of 'unfreezing' requirements - 500hrs multi crew etc.

Maybe things have changed (again) but that's how it came across as we all started the transition to JAA training.

Rgds
RM

So there is no way whatsoever that those of us still with UK FATPLs can unfreeze them any more, without getting that 500 multi crew?

LST

correct the option ended 30th June 2002. You are now chasing a JAR atpl. (With 500hrs Multi-crew.)