CPL Cross-Country Qualifying Flight
 

I was presented with a new twist on the question of the 300 mile CPL cross-country qualifying flight. Wondered what you would vote for - based on your interpretation of Lasors 2006.

D 1.2 (D) JAR-FCL CPL(A) MODULAR COURSE FLYING TRAINING/EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS

“20 hours cross country flight time as Pilot-in-command, including, a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540km (300nm) in the course of which full-stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure shall be made.”

Imagine two scenarios.

First one: Depart airfield A at 0740 on day 1 and fly 44 miles East to airfield B arriving at 0845. Depart again at 0900 and return to A. 88miles flown and 2 hrs 5 minutes logged.

Have a four hour break then depart A at 1400, fly 131 miles South to airfield C, arriving at 1555. Depart C at 1620 and fly 145 miles further South to airfield D, arriving at 1815.

Total for the day (sunup to sundown) is 364 miles but did include a return to base airfield part way through. The A-C-D flight being only 276 miles.

Does it count as qualifying?

Second scenario: Same A-C-D flight on day one. Remember, departed A at 1400, arrived at D at 1815 - having flown 276 miles.

Pre-planned night stop - so off to the hotel for a beer and a kip.

Next morning, depart D at 0900 and go back, via C, to A, arriving at 1315. Another 276 miles flown. Total within last 24 hours was 552 miles but did include a night stop.

Does it count as qualifying?

:ok: :D That's a good one. would love to know what the CAA think (bet they don't know either!;) ).

To add to the confusion - if you define a flight as starting when the a/c moves for the purpose of take-off and finishing when it stops for the purpose of disembarkation (or whatever it is), wouldn't getting out anywhere mean it wasn't a x-country flight but x-country flights and therefore wouldn't qualify?

I vote that both your scenarios qualify, for what it's worth.

My interpretation is that Scenario A is acceptable.

However, I am pretty sure Scenario B is not acceptable - I recall seeing a training memo in December of 05 (or whatever they are called) stating that the only reason over night qualifying cross countries would be accepted was if the stop was due to unforseen technical reasons.

Someone at an FTO in the UK would have to confirm the latter - or anywhere - I assume they forward the memos to all FTOs??

Safe Flying.

Keygrip

To answer the second part of your question first - no it does not count if you do not do it all on one day (unless there is a valid reason why you did not do so, e.g. weather, tech problems).

I checked this with the CAA last year and I was told that the one day rule had been implemented early last year although the change has not been included in (e.g.) LASORS.

The first part of your question is not so clearcut. The rule does say "a cross country flight in the course of which full stop landings at two airfields other than the airfield of departure shall be made". In theory, your example would therefore be valid, but I do not think I would take that risk!

Linda

I would say neither,
Certainly trip one does not seem to qualify. First journey could be seen as any cross country flight and totally independent. Second journey comes close but short of the 300nm.
My interpretation is a round trip, taking off from A, going to B and C then back to A and must be 300nm +.
I don't know about the night stop.....
I'm off to do mine in a few weeks, weather permitting, but will do it in a single day and NOt return to base until 300nm have been flown.
Still, it all counts doesn't it:ok:

Here's one, is the 300nm trip valid if you land at 3 different airfields in one day covering more than 300nm?

Two "stupid" questions:

1. Does the flight have to end back at A, or will a flight from A - B - C of more than 300 nm count?

2. Do the airfields have to be within the UK, or would a trip to France count?

As they say... "the devil is in the detail". For what it's worth, this is my humble opinion.

In answer to "Andy R" and "What's a Girdler" - I wouldn't worry about exceeding the requirements. So long as the requirement of at least 300nm is satisfied, and the trip includes two full stop landings at aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure, then the requirements are satisfied - wherever those aerodromes may be, and whether or not you eventually return to the point of origin.

I think the way to interpret this is to look at the phraseology.

Define "the aerodromes of departure".

Note the use of a plural, "aerodromes". This means that each take-off, (a: Point of Origin, b: Aerodrome 1, c: Aerodrome 2 etc), is, (or becomes), an "aerodrome of departure". So all your subsequent landings, (on this cross-country flight (singular) of at least 300nm), must be at a different aerodrome to any of the ones (plural) you have previously departed from.

This rules out Scenario 1 from KeyGrip's Question, since the cross country included a landing at the point of origin, which was a previous point of departure for the sortie. So I would support "PowderMonkey's" view that this in practice means a "round trip", although I would say it is optional whether the airborne section of the return to base leg is included in the 300nm total or not.

I would have thought Scenario 2 (with the overnight stop) would be ruled out mainly for one and potentially two reasons...

a) There is no such thing as Night Time VFR in JAA world, (albeit there is in FAA land), so for qualifying as "a VFR cross-country flight" (singluar - meaning a single sortie), they could eliminate any time logged as "Night" as not satisfying the "VFR" requirement for JAA purposes. Now the times KeyGrip gave, would not in themselves imply any night flight, but then how can a single VFR cross-country sortie be said to continuous throughout the hours of darkness, with the plane sat on the ground?

This is not to say, however, that a Sortie from A-B-C which satisfies the requirments in total, could not include a night stop at C before returning to A in the morning. That should be valid.

b) Even if the whole trip was conducted in a single day under VFR, having flown 276nm from A-C-D does not (obviously) satisfy the 300nm requirement. The trip then continues back to A via C. If, as KeyGrip says, C was 145 miles from D, and a landing were made there on the way back, then I would say the requirements would be fulfilled.

But if we change the scenario slightly, and move C to less than 24 miles from D (say A-C = 256 and C-D = 20, total still = 276), then Landing again at C on the way back would invalidate the requirement: "...300nm in the course of which... (land) ...at an aerodrome different to any of the aerodromes of departure".

As stated above night stops are not valid.
And as stated by Linda Scenario 1 is technically valid but I wouldn't if I were you...:hmm:

I would have thought Scenario 1 would be out too - the flight should be completed under a single plan and I would have thought the four hours on the ground would have prevented that happening due to the currency requirements relating to briefings and notifications etc.

Well no - what happens if you stop for lunch? - most airfields have Wx, NOTAM facilities. Don't over read into it - yes there are some airmanship considerations but all that matters is what's in the docs - and although its a loose translation of the regs it still abides by them - but again I wouldn't recommend it!

The JAA requirement eminates from ICAO Annex 1:

20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot-incommand
including a cross-country flight totalling not
less than 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which
full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be
made;

The CAA accepts a series of flights conducted in the course of a "day" or a 24-hour period, that total or exceed 540 Km (300 nm) (540Km is 294 miles), that conduct fullstop landings at two aerodromes other than the point of departure. Anything else is irrelevant.

I still maintain that Keygrips scenario 1 does not qualify, these will be seen as two separate sorties, neither of which meets the requirements.
Keep it simple guys: depart home base, travel to B, STOP, have tea/refuel etc. Depart B, travel to C, STOP, more tea/food etc. Depart C and go back to original departure point. All in same day, cover 300nm +, must be done in the airspace you are training in ( ie, I cannot cross the Scottish FIR, must be done in Irish airspace only from what I have been told).
Simple..but long and boring.......bring another PPL with you?:ok:

So if what Noggin says is true (and dont have books with me as at work so cant confirm!) then if a '24hr period' is acceptable then you could have an overnight stop and be within the rules. Can anyone confirm?

Have to say, I was always under the impression that it had to be done in the same day.

Another thing to remember is that it is 'point-to-point distance' between the airfields, that is if you have two airfields say 50miles apart, you could not put a dog leg in your flight plan to make it 100miles.

Julian.

Ermm, did mine in the US of A, took off at A, landed at B, had lunch then went to C, had a can of coke then on to D and pitched me tent. D was Key West, did the flight on a Christmas Eve, which beat the one before - xmas shopping in Coventry under a stationary occluded front...

And my point? Well he first is to enjoy it and have a bit of an adventure. Also not sure that the flight has to be in one country/FIR to qualify (allthough this one was) - where is this stated?

As an aside the return flight was broken by a night stop in Naples due wx, so timing is important.

PF

Powdermonkey - my qualifier was partly outside UK airspace - maybe the Irish have different rules? I don't see anything in LASORS that says you have to remain in your 'training' airspace.

I can definitively say the A-B-C approach is acceptable. For my 300 I did Cumbernauld-Denham-Sandown (stayed overnight at Sandown).

OC619

KISS (Keep It Simple)
 

It'd be a very great pity to miss out on getting your licence just because of a technicality over the x-country!

I'm with pilgrim flyer, here. Plan a flight that's a bit of an adventure, pick a really good wx day, take a companion to share the pleasure with, keep it simple, in excess of the requirement.

I did Denham-Bodmin-St. Just-Rowborough-Dunkeswell-Denham. Nearly 8 hours in a low-horse Rallye! Of course, at the time I didn't KNOW I was doing the qualifying, it was just a big day out as an early PPL trip.

OpenCirrus619,

Quite a challenge, doing Cumbernauld-Denham! Not the easiest place to find, straight off.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

EGBK- so I was told by FTO, but between them and IAA they don't have much of a clue, so I may have been given the wrong info!.....more than likely in fact:confused:

Did mine last Summer, Blackbushe-Leicester-Connington (lunch)-Lydd- Blackbushe, 304nm exactly, 4.1 Hours airbourne! Connington - Lydd leg was challenging, routing directly beteen Stansted and Luton!

I did my CPL QXC from Long beach > Mexican Border (Think its called Brown Field but make sure you land right side of the border or else you have to do some fast talking to men with large amounts of firearms pointed at you!!!) > Palm Springs > McClellan Palomar > Long Beach.

Took most of day but we didnt exactly rush it and certainly something a bit different for the log book!

Julian.

Not as difficult as perhaps it seems..... At the time I was based at Denham flying the C172 from The Pilot Centre. I was on a 3 day "birthday present to myself" :E :
Day 1: Denham-Retford-Cumbernauld
Day 2: Cumbernauld-Denham-Sandown
Day 3: Sandown-Denham

OC619

Anybody want to clarify the crossing of FIR boundaries?

Would Shoreham - Troyes - Cannes count for example?

Yes, it would count.
All you have to do is meet those requirement - countries, FIR boundries irrelevant - just do exactly what it says on the tin. (NB Bare in mind the fact it must be completed in one day has yet to be added to LASORS.)
No need to over complicate the issue!:}

Hello everyone! My first day of Pprune membership! Nice to jump in with a bang because this thread refers to my flight. And, I'm pleased to say that the CAA have given the nod to both scenarios! Wahoo!! Whether you think it right or not in the absence of any "caselaw" (for want of a better phrase) clarifying things in detail, subjective assumptions we all make in reading a piece of text can be argued either way. In fairness, I did cover over 600 miles in 24 hours (one end of Florida to the other - and back!!) which is far more flying than what most do for a qualifier. I deal with law books and rules all day in my job and, if I may be so bold as to offer some advice to all; read only the text and do not allow any opinions or subjective interpretation to creep in. Remember - "Everything is permitted except that which is specifically written as not permitted". Keep smiling. :-)

1711 bet me to it - but, Yes, even before I posted on here, the UK CAA had agreed to both scenarios.

The "done in one day" of which Linda speaks in message 3 (?) is, so they say, a "continuous period of 24 consecutive hours" (as per a professional duty day in a flight time limitation sheme) - so both scenarios counted as acceptable.

They did say that the two flights didn't necessarily settle nicely with the spirit of the "legislation" - but did settle within the spirit of the purpose of the exercise - experience as pilot in command of a 300 mile cross country VFR flight.

600 miles and still time for a pasta suppa at Capone's ! ! ! :}

<<edit: With Bunny June and Miss Jewel. Sweet!! OK, fair play - you made I larf, you did. >>

X-Country Hours for IR
 

probably been asked before. tried a search, but no joy....

I understand that you need 50 hours cross country before starting the IR.

What constitutes cross country flight? (the CAAs definition at any rate) do you have to land away, be out of gliding range of your home base, cross the international dateline - what is it??

Got lots of flying which is called 'local' in my book but which could equally well be called a 'navex' or whatever...

thanks in advance!

umbongo

Others may be able to correct me if I am mistaken

But I seem to recall under the CAA that any flights further than
3nm from the airfield can be counted as cross country.

Kentflyer is correct.
FFF
--------------

Do you need to land at another airfield for it to count? If not, how do you proove you were away. I often take off, do around 100nm and turn back.

I don't pay landing charges where I am based.

No requirement to land away, and no way realistically of proving whether a flight was x-country or not. The requirement for 3nm basically means everything other than circuits.

As long as what you claim for x-country seems to fit in with your general level of experience, it won't be a problem. On the other hand, if you claim 100 hours total time and 90 hours x-country, it will raise some eyebrows as to whether you really only ever did 10 hours of circuits.

FFF
-------------

It really comes down to what you write in your log book. A to B is X ctry, any flight that leaves the airfield and goes somewhere is X-ctry.

The 3 mile definition in the ANO is to set limits on the privileges of an AFI or FI(R) in that they are not allowed to authorise a student on their first solo cross country i.e. a flight more than 3nm from the airfield. It has no other meaning beyond that. At some airfields circuits are bigger than that!

NPA-FCL 31 introduces a JAA definition for cross-country as "A flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route using standard navigation procedures". Presumably, for any licences and ratings issued after NPA 31 is adopted the CAA will only count flights that meet this definition towards the cross-country requirements.

CPL Cross-Country Qualifying Flight
 

Im trying to find some information regarding CPL X-country qualifying flights. LASORS refers me to JAA-FCL1.

As far as im aware JAA will only allow access to their documents for a (large) fee.

Is this correct? If I need access to any of the documents covering legal requirements set under JAR I have to pay a fee?!? :confused:


Okay, as for the question.

I believe this has to be done in a day, but what is the definition of a "day" for the flight to count as a qualifier? Is it a 24 hour period or does it have to be done on the same calendar date? If this has been covered elsewhere, can someone post me the link (I couldn’t find what I was looking for)

Cheers Guys (and Gals)

:ok:

JAR-FCL section 1 is free

http://www.jaa.nl/publications/section1.html

section 2 costs or contact a friend

There is no mention that it needs to be on the same day in JAR-FCL 1

... 20 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command including a VFR cross-country flight totalling at least 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which full stop landings at two different aerodromes from the aerodrome of departure shall be made ...

Thanks for that, LASORS refered me to FCL1 1.125 for the "definition", which I think is maybe in section 2.

This seems open to interpretation...If you flew 150 miles, landed, had a few days holiday in your destination and then flew back. Would that count?

What about if you flew to your 150 mile destination stayed a few days, did a short sightseeing flight and then flew home....would that count?

MP,

We recently had a student who could not complete his PPL QXC in one day due to inclement wx at the 2nd airfield. If he had got on with the job instead of hanging around for a couple of hours he would have completed the final leg. Instead, he had to get a taxi home.
However, as no definitive time scale seems to be written anywhere, we contacted Mike Grierson at the CAA's approvals dept to ask if it would be OK for our student to be ferried to his last airfield to complete the final leg of his QXC.
We were advised that the CAA would EXPECT the QXC to be completed within a 24 hour period. The only reason that this has ever been waived was when an aircraft went tech at one of the visiting airfields.
Not an answer to your specific question, but I would advise that you contact the CAA BEFORE setting off if you do not intend to complete the flight within 24 hours.
Regards

76

This is a question that comes up quite regularly - but it seems clear (to me at least) that the spirit of this requirement is that it's intended to be one trip completed in one day. I think attempts to "bend" this rule are just asking for unnecessary trouble, especially when you're going to the time and expense of doing all the other work for a CPL.

Section 1 of each of the JAA requirements is available at no cost on the JAA website, this Section contains all of the 'requirements'. Section 2 contains the Acceptable Means of Compliance (AMC) and Interpretive and Explanatory Material (IEM) and for that you have to pay (a considerable amount).

If you are referred to a 'JAR' (e.g. JAR-FCL 1.125), it will be in Section 1 and available at no charge on the JAA website.