Article in one of the Pilot Mags
 

A couple of days ago I was reading an article in a pilot magazine which is following an oxford student through his ATPL exams. Just reading down the page and came across the quote which read something like" first time passes are needed as it could mean the difference between a right hand seat on a 737 or a job behind a shop counter" What a thing to say. I never passed my exams first time and I dont work behind a shop counter. I hope he does not think that someone working in a shop is lower than him. Typical 19year old. Just remember peeps how fortunate we are . I maybe completely wrong but it did annoy me.

Yes, I think first-time passes would elevate you to the position of re-stocking the shelves, or perhaps sweeping the aisles, even third assistant to the duty manager!!

There hasn't been one application form I've filled in that has asked me my ATPL results. In fact, even my first time IR and CPL passes don't get a look-in anywhere either.

At OATS they might mean the difference between your name going forward to BA or not, but I thought the requirement was just an average of 85%.

For the rest of us, first time passes are good only for you: they give you confidence, boost your morale and generally indicate you are headed in the right direction. They also save considerable anguish and further expense.

It is because he has been sold the Oxford lie, and seemingly swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

I feel sorry for the little blighter.

Geez:cool:


P.S. The Oxford lie comes in many forms and can be found in many flying schools up and down the country. A way to identify the Oxford lie is to go to a school that doesn't need to put 'adverts' in pilot magazine and compare them to said school.

But who cares about experiencing real life, when you can be a FO in a jet in 12 months!

Chances are he'll get a job before he even finishes school. I really hope he does.

Oxford lie became a truth for me i'm afraid. Sure, his comment was a bit off but he's only just started the course. He'll wise up.

I'm sure his comment was made with the slightest hint of sarcasm! He is in a fortunate position to be at OAT and is obviously willing to pay the £60,000 to £70,000 to be there! If he does well, then yes, he will probably have an interview with BA in 15 months - I wish I could say that!

I'm at OAT and I can tell you right now that everyone here does not buy into the 'oxford lie' as you all so nicely put it :rolleyes: . We're here because its a good school with great instructors. Good results are NEVER a bad thing and you should aim to do as well as you can. That goes for anything in life, not just flying!!

Isn't the real point here, and the one Airpilot was originally making, that this wee tyke sees his future as being either in the RHS of some posh jet, or a fate worse than death, "behind a counter"? He will probably score 100% in everything (it isn't that hard) .. But he should still be forcefully ejected into the Real World for a statutory period of at least three years, or until puberty, before being allowed anywhere near anyone's RHS. Then he might realise how insulting (to those of us who are, or ever have been, "behind counters"), unrealistic and ungrateful his attitude is.
Oh, and I take it regional turboprops are just flying counters...?

Ahh, Bless him, he probably wanted to be a Pop Singer until 6 months ago, but never passed the 'X factor' auditions!!:p

Loads of people I know had the odd re-take to do, having missed a pass by a couple of percent on a bad day, and it has Never come back to bite them in the backside!! - Oh and they never ended up behind a counter either:eek: !!

Having worked in a Pub once (behind a Bar :oh: ), and held down a decent office job )behind a Desk:{ ), I eventually went on to Instruct and then to fly a regional Turbo Prop until fairly recently!! Gosh, how did I manage???:hmm:

Well I rekon that the TP flying was about the most fun I will ever have in an aeroplane, lots of hand flying, visual approaches, weather avoidance, 2 take off and landings per day, 5 days per week!!:ok: So the jets bring more money, and a bit more variety, but alot of the 'fun' factor is gone! It's great to climb the ladder, but even nicer if you can stop on the way up to take in the view!:D

To be honest, I read the article and I personally thought the way he was speaking was demeaning and had a lot of arrogence in it. To be fair, good luck to the kid, it takes lots of work and dedication anywhere you decide to train, but I feel a more "real world" series would be better, ie following a self improver through a course, as the OAT seems to be insert arrogant 19yr old and 70k one end,and in just over a year extract an even more arrogant "anyone whodidn't train at OAT is crap" 20 yr old with minimun time and limited "real world" experience.

just my 2 pennys worth, waiting for the flames now :}

As the old saying goes:

At 100hrs you think you know everything. At 500hrs you know you know everything. At 10,000hrs you know you'll never know it all.

Equally an allegory for the arogance of youth and the wisdom of age. Cut the lad some slack!

The whole article just made me cringe, and cringe even more the bit about ending up in a supermarket...........AARRRGGGHHHH

I tend to agree re the "real world' alternative, Kengineer. I would have been interested to read a first-hand tale of someone struggling to get through by fair means or foul, while funding the rest of life, a partner and spawn. (More so than yet another flight test on some obscure aircraft I wouldn't recognise if I fell over it, and will certainly never lay hands on) But what light , on ANY aspect, can an unself-funded 19-year-old shed anyway?
That isn't a rhetorical question. In all honesty, I knew the article would irritate me beyond belief, so I've only skim-read it. Please, someone do correct me if I've missed the point.
As a recovering journalist, I would love to know the editorial thinking behind this one.

Airist,

I am not sure if "Pilot Pete's" story was ever published within Pilot, but if you'd like to read a story like you describe then "Pilot Pete" posted his story to PPRUNE as a "taster" for the article he was going to send to Pilot.

A very worthwhile read.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=6911

I have also read the article by the 19-year old. I nearly gave up after nearly throwing up whilst reading the first few paragraphs in regards to looking at one's self in the mirror, talk about vane!

I do hope he wrote the article with his tongue firmly in cheek. He was right though when he wrote about feedback and pre-exam week! Plenty of coffee, etc etc... Oh dear I've got that coming up this coming week. Oh well. :D

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

Okay Okay

Perhaps we are all being a little harsh on this young lad ?

I know his article made me cringe as I said before, but come on, how many of you wish that you were on his shoes when you were 19 Eh ?

What we see here is the person that many a 30 odd year fATPLer is in competition with..........like it or not.

His chances of landing a RHS position in the proverbial ' shiny jet ' in the not too far distant future are way and above that of a majority of others. but, hey, thats life !

J

No it ain't Jepp

He has as much chance as the other 1000 low houred CPL's out there after OAT have lost interest in him.

He is young and all the rest which will work in his......

I actually think poor **** to be honest. Every man and his dog will think the pish that has been written is him......

I hope he got a huge bung for the article

MJ

I feel I must come to the defence of Will, I'm at OAT and know him quite well. He's a great guy, popular with his class and very switched on. He's just about to do his IR and in fact is about to go to BA for selection and interview so I think despite his youth and limited industry experience, is qualified enough to write an article only designed to give people a bit of an insight into training - yes it maybe just at OAT on an integrated course, but nonetheless...

I agree his comments along the shop counter lines are misinformed, everybody is allowed a failure at something, christ, you wouldn't be human if you hadn't and how would you ever learn anything - I think what he may have been trying to say is what the airlines don't want to see is a number of failures, I know someone who failed 4 subjects and re-sat two of them twice! That wouldn't go too much in your favour, but failing one by a few percent isn't ever going to dash your chances. If anything, it gives you material for the "give us a time when you failed something" questions at interview.

I agree with lots of Will's statements and not with some others. No one is going to agree with everything, not even if it had been written by a 35 year old with years of life experience. I don't think it was written as a definitive guide to ATPL training, just a light-hearted account of his experiences.
after all.........do you believe everything you read?!

Thanks moo,

The first rational post in this thread.

As someone who got first time passes in every flying test I've done, it is so immensely frustrating to read that someone who has yet to do their IR has an interview already lined up with BA. Unfortunately I was a modular student...who sat the same exams and tests as this chap, was examined to the same level, etc, etc.

If I ever needed reminding that this is an unfair world...

Don't be too hard on the lad; he is to a large extent regurgitating what he's been told and can't leaven that with his own experience. It's just a shame that Oxford (or at least one or some of its staff) feel the need to try and convince their students that this kind of crap is true.

It may well be that in OAT's own culture, and in any agreement made with the airlines it deals with, failures at ground exams are not tolerated. Of course, you would expect in that case that anyone who fails an exam is not allowed to continue to waste their money on the flying phases of the course. Perhaps someone from Oxford would care to comment on that...? However, in the wider field of real-world employment, it is accepted that people fail exams and retake them. It would be a very hard-nosed employer indeed who took a dim view of this.

Take the article with a pinch of salt. Those of you not OAT trained who have been successfully employed may like to write to the magazine concerned and set the record straight?

Scroggs

... No-one's been having a personal go at the lad. At least, I don't think so.
But he seems to forget that he is very privileged to be where he is. There are a lot of people out there who haven't had his luck and are indeed working behind counters, or wherever. Moo, if you know him, perhaps you could have a tactful word in his ear about that. And maybe having a little humility in the face of his absolute inexperience, of aviation AND The Real World. You could call it "CRM"...

Twit-Twoo !!

I've been reading this thread and also the mentioned article.

It's a shame that OAT/Pilot magazine have exploited the young chap.
This article should be taken as what it is....
A marketing exercise.

They (OAT) are now competing against Universities in selling a career/course. There's now no free Uni and so if you have to pay why not just go and do the ATPL straight away. Rather than like the past, Uni and then ATPL. OAT are fully aware of this.
So are now lowering the demography ie. 18-20 year olds. Look at their adverts, all fresh faced and under 22!

Pilot magazine is just an extention of the OAT marketing department. Every other month there's some article about OAT. Pilot magazine has lots of OAT adverts (inc CSE) so are probably their largest income. Trust me -count the adverts !!

They've tried to balance this (May or June) issue with other schools/flying abroad etc.. I think each school got a paragraph!
OAT on the other hand - get a full page spread and a journalist saying that if you want to do it the best way - go to OAT.

If I was a FTO, I'd pull the adverts in Pilot. Why subsidise OAT marketing department? Haven't seen Jerez for a while ??

I work in the industry as such and come across these so called OAT graduates. I would like to point out these basic facts:

1 You are at OAT NOT Oxford University. You only need 5 GCSE's not 6 A* a- levels.
2 You are not a graduate! It takes at least 3/4 years to get a BA/Bsc/LLB etc.
3 Degrees aren't multiple choice and there's no question bank with tutors gentally pointing you in the right direction for the thickies.
4 I was brought upto respect other peoples ways of achieving their goals - there is never EVER just one way to do things.
5 Don't believe a word of anything from people selling anything inc flight training!
6 Why do OAT students always say OAT have the best FI's ? Have you been any where else to compare this? They have the experience I here you say.. The experience has long gone.

Finally, I hope the young chap does achieve his goal and so does everybody else (whatever the path).
I will not be buying Pilot magazine again and neither should you until the editorial gets less bias.

An independent Twit-Twoo (not from OAT)!!!;) ;)

Sorry it was a rant. The article got me in a flap - pun intended!!

Sorry it was a rant. The article got me in a flap - pun intended!!

Was that a plain or fowler flap?? :}

As someone who started university this year before top-up fee's were introduced. Am I missing something or could I have sworn that university has never been free? If it actually was supposed to be free then I'm being ripped off by thousands of pounds!!! lol

I am aware of inflation, but when I wnet to uni it did not cost in excess of £70K, as some Intergrated Schools Charge!!!!!!!!!!:confused:

The article pissed me off - it's misleading for people looking to enter flying training and is horribly pro Oxford, in particular the bit in the first article where the author seemed to suggest that the ONLY way to survive the ATPLs is to do a full time residential course! How many people starting out will have been taken in by that piece of mis-information?

I don't blame the chap who wrote it, as has been mentioned he's in-experienced and has just repeated what he was told by the Oxford marketing machine in relation to groundschool. He's obviously doing well with his course and no one should begrudge him a shot at BA selection - good luck to him.

The real issue is with Pilot mag. The idea behind the articles is surely to provide a generic insight into commercial training and what it is like actually going through it. Being a GA publication I don't know how much commercial training/flying experience the editorial team have, but the only group who are really benefitting from the series of articles - up to this point anyway - are Oxford themselves.

Oxford's course is good for one thing, and that is getting into BA, they pay 10% more than other airlines, as quoted by a senior first officer friend of mine, fine if you want to pay through the nose for a course. However why all the ambition to go to an airline where time to command is going to be 17 years for even the airbus fleet when they extend retirement age. If you ask me, go for one of the holiday charter firms where time to command is significantly less, how many airlines even look or even ask for ATPL results, I can think of one.....BA!

Says it all well done Oxford!!

That is no longer true, especially when related pro rata with flying hours. Nor is their pension better than anyone else's - in fact, it is far worse than some. BA is now a middling employer, not the bar-setter it used to be. And you do not have to go to OAT to get in.

Scroggs

TWIT_TWOO!!

Kenginer - Fowler Flap!!

TWIT-TWOO!!

Uni was more or less free ie. No Uni fees and a subsistance grant!
I graduated from a Oxbridge Uni and my total debt was 1500 quid after 3 years. So yes, Uni WAS free!!
My point was that OAT realise this and are targeting the younger folk ( hence the age of the chap inthe article) . Average debt from Uni is now estimated to be 25,000 quid So if you go to OAT :
Uni degree 25,000 + 65,000 OAT + 20,000 TR = 110,000 !!!!
My numbers are 10, 17 , 23, 34, 42 and 44 .
Why does 44 always come up ?

So folks Uni is not free neither is a career in aviation.
OAT good for BA ? That's at the moment and all because of the ex- OAT "graduate" in charge of recruitment. When the baby boomers keel over (next year) that may change when more flights are being cancelled due to lack of aircrew (FD + CC).
I do wish they get rid of him he's so OAT it's embarrasing for the rest of us. He's not even a "real" graduate but prances about like a double first from Oxon!!

TWIT-TWOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.s See my new thread " Don't buy Pilot/ OAT advertisement pamphlet"

Would that be X University or Univerisity of X :E

BA paying more than other airlines? A good bit of misinformation that one! Schools with a BA contract will be be making a loss. BA use their size (large fish in small pond) and national flag carrier as bait for the schools.

"You want our contract? We will pay this amount." The school will bleed with every BA student. But they all want to be able to say, "We train BA students." If you are not a BA student you are paying a higher price. Schools have to make up their losses somehow.

I have a dream that one day all the schools will get together and work out a price for BA that is just. A dream I know, the schools will say yes and then do a private deal.

I wouldn't blame the man himself but there are some rather unfortunate comments in both articles so far. Given the cost of his course, getting paid to write about it is a very enterprising thing to do!

What is more worrying is the spread of this elitist "only a big BA jet will do" attitude. Many of us will have failed something and now feel that it made us a better pilot, not a worse one. And in such a diverse industry with so many companies doing different things, why is everyone obsessed with getting into one company??

I have been looking around for a flight training school for some time now, have visited most of them and one thing seems to be common through out all the schools that offer the intergrated course.. It's like being in a cult!!

Now I know everyone can make up there own mind, and there are plenty of success stories from these schools but being sold a dream in the way that they do, is to me quite worrying! I appreciate many people have £80k+ and are able to afford these courses, but to have to borrow £50k from a bank to pay for the training, that doesn't even cover the full cost of the training is way beyond belief! I understand it's going to be used for your future and it's an investment, but I worries me that someone aged 19/20 is allowed to borrow that kind of money, with out the real realisation of what happens it all goes wrong expalined to them! It's just all too easy.

I have read the article, and reading through it think that this guy has just been brain washed and nothing else in the real world actually matters.. Its the schools way, and that's all that matters.. Why should he worry about what he's writting?! What he's been taught is the only way it should be done.. According to the school....this is what he believes so why should he doubt it!


At the end of the day, we can all make our own decisions about life. What and who we want to believe but personally I would never go to one of these schools even if they could guarentee a job at the end.. Which they can't...

If you want to know I wouldn't .. It's very simple.. zero-fatpl will cost you if you go modular Min £38k .... the same at an intergrated school will cost you £65K+... Anyone that wants to charge you £28k extra for the same course DOES NOT HAVE YOUR INTERESTS as a priority.. How can they! But you have a choice, you make it and you stick by it.. Same as anything in life..


I have no doubt that one day I will be working with someone that has been to one of these schools, and I will have utter respect for them regardless.. I am at the end of the day not in a postion to critise others for the choices they make....I just hope they know what they are doing and are not being blinkered by all the hype and marketing that is offered to them for the extra £28k they pay!

Pilot OAT series
 

Have to agree with Bitmorerightrudder on this one. Learning to fly either as a hobby or as a career as we all know is hugely expensive and something you would hope is looked into by everyone that embarks on it in great depth. In my case I spent many years reading Pilot, Flyer and Flight International etc on a weekly/monthly basis as I am sure most of us did. Therefore, this article will be being read by 10's if not 100's of inexperienced guys and girls that are wanting to embark on pilot training and it is painting a distorted picture in my view. It is a huge decission to make and these people need the best, most balanced and appropriate advice.....

The article in my view is hugely biased towards OAT and intergrated course providers for that matter and is being written by an author who, no disrespect to him at all, has no experience in the industry, specifically flight crew training or recruitment.

How many editions is this series to run for? Would Pilot have not been better featuring for example an intergrated OAT/Cabair/FTE student in month 1, a modular student (perhaps a guy or girl making a career change later in life for example, with family, mortgage considerations etc) with say Stapleford/Bristol Flying School/Aero's on week 2, a fATPL holder job hunting in week 3 (Advise on CV Writting, SIM Assessments, Interviews etc) and a newly qualified FO in week 4 (What the job is actually like!!). Not only a far less biased series , but far more imformative getting several different views and from people at various stages in the process?

Only my opinion for what it is worth.....

High wing drifter,

The Big Uni of X !!;) :E :ok:

Pilot magazine and the OAT chap
 

JUst caught a quick glimpse of this month's Pilot magazine with another article in it of some chap who was either heading towards or just completed training at OAT. Like I said it was brief glance as I was pushed for time but I note from the last paragraph that he claimed to have spent "100k" and declared it as an investment.

Investments are not impune from some forward planning and this kind of figure is very high especially for someone of such a young age (something unethical about that... not sure). Anyway the fATPL is the investment not the price tag, because in gaining the fATPL he could have done so for half of that price quite easily. Clearly if it's not on the syllabus then these young guys have no idea about it. This clearly demonstrates their lack of general knowledge and awareness of anything outside of aviation or should I say anything not OAT approved (whatever that means).

Doesn't make me feel too well....:yuk:

Let's not get onto the Modular versus Integrated debate again.

To my knowledge, he has finished, and has a job with an airline.

I understand I didn't want an Int. Vs Mod. debate neither just thought I'd mention it because I only caught a quick glance at the article.

But hey well done to him ..... looks like a goofey though :)

RIGHT!! NOw listen- the problem with integrated is.....

ah, I'm only kiddin you guys......

:ok:

I should add though, I agree with you in that £100k does seem excessive. I know the figure quoted included all expenditure, including IR re-test (partial pass). Perhaps he had a lavish lifestyle. I'm certainly not expecting to spend quite that much.