Education: What A Levels and Degree (if any)?!(Apr '09)
 

I've read lots of posts from extremely well academically qualified people on Pprune. Although I am qualified myself I don't have a degree. Do you think this is something that would hinder entry into the airlines?

I have yet to start flight training as I am putting the cash together from all sources and trying to plan the best route - which brings me on to one more point; I've read many overviews of what JAA modular training providers offer both here in the UK and in the USA. My plan is to PPL - IMC - Night in the US - ATPL ground in the UK - Hours in US - CPL/IR in UK/USA. There is no specific multi-engine. Please tell me, where do I start to experience this, in the CPL/IR or do I have to specifically book a course to do it? I know under JAR there is a requirement for ME in the CPL but if I don't do it until then, will this be detramental? Thanks.

This is a no-brainer, these days. Go to University and get a degree. Yes, I know you will hear many stories about how it's possible to get a flying job without one, and some of the less wise here will say that the earlier you get on an airline's seniority list the better. However, they never seem to mention the many who opt out of university and yet fail to get a flying job. Where do they stand in the overall scheme of things? I'll tell you: a lot further down the slippery pole than the people who persevered and got the degree.
As has been mentioned above, there are a great many advantages to going to university, and very few disadvantages. You are young and have plenty of time. Make yourself as employable as possible to as many employers as possible. You could be one of the probably 70% of wannabes who don't make it to your dream job.

Mate, if you're not already committed to Navy or whatever you decided eventually, go to one near a UAS, do 2 years and drop out then decide on RAF/civvy etc. As for the degree, I personally would not go for a purely aviation-based one, however if you feel you can cope with aeronautical engineering then go for it, but without the maths it would be a struggle IMHO.

You need to ask yourself what you are good at, since it really does not make much difference to employers what sort of degree you actually did. If you go for the av management route, are you interested in psychology, management and all aspects of what is taught around the ATPL. If not, just go for your economics, history, politics, chemistry or whatever you have a deep interest in, because it may be better to get the broad knowledge, rather than to go straight down the aviation road all the way.

Good Luck

What if you have absolutely no interest in anything outside the aviation field? What if you're one of those guys that's gonna end up reading maths/science/history/economics/etc textbooks with stary, glazed-over eyes, thinking, "Why am I still doing this when I'm out of school?". Aren't those aviation degrees pretty useful for the field you're about to enter? At all??

Stick with your first idea of a engineering / professional degree, just one which is more practical than heavy maths.

The employment rates for all the acredited courses have been in the 90's for years and most engineers don't acually work as engineers because of there problem solving training and managment/ accounts courses. They get employed in all sectors accounts through to IT although not many in personel deptments :).

In fact i believe that engineers have a higher rate of first time passes in Chartered Accountacy that accounts graduates.

And the old joke "What do you say to a arts graduate in there first job...." is unfortuntely in the experence of my friends very true unless they joined the forces or became Teachers.

MJ

I agree, itsallmagic, but there has to be real commitment and no an inkling of a doubt, plus as said before that you don't want to commit too early to one route. It is I have to say a safer bet than just gaining an ATPL and hoping for an airline job with no degree.

i'm at Strathclyde, doing business. Currently going thru the stages for UAS. Most (In fact all but 4) are at Glasgow doing aero engineering...and its a good degree, but i'd say do something other than aviation led degree, as you may end up wanting (or indeed having to) work in another industry. And be warned-joining the UAS, at least as i've found, really makes you want to join the RAF after the degree! Good luck whatever you do mate.

Rusty,

If you didn't do maths a-level you will not be accepted onto an aero eng course. Thats not a bad thing, as its a 'challenging' course even with the maths (like I found).

Do a degree you are interested in, and will do well in. Having said that, as mentioned here; science and engineering degrees are always well regarded, and provide a good foundation for a wide range of careers.

Good luck!
JT8

Coventry University do an "Aerospace Technology" BEng I think...Might be just what you are after, as I assume it would be less maths intensive. Worth checking it out. Although I wouldn't recommend Coventry for anything....ever :D

Regards,

MS

Rusty,

If you decide that the RAF is the way ahead then it makes no diference what degree you do. Pick a uni with a UAS and do whatever you like and have fun :)

Tonks :D

Rusty,

Only do an Aero. Engineering degree if you really think you would benefit from it.

They are hard degrees, and if you are not inclined to that 'sort' of study, it is better that you do something you are good at and get a good degree rather than do an Aero degree and get just an average grade.

If you do want to do an Aero. Engineering degree and you don't have a Maths A-level, you could always do a foundation year: I know a number of uni's do them- you just do an extra year of study, the first basically being a 'catch-up' course.

Do bear in mind that all of the people on my course have studied Maths though and we are all finding it difficult now we are in year 2 !!!

Best of luck

Jason :)

Thanks for all the replies folks, I'ts making the decision a little easier!

Tonkenna,

Did you get my e-mail? I have fears my computer may be playing mind games with me!

Many thanks,
Rusty.

hi guys
this is a cool forum for ppl like me. i am doing my bachelors in english literature, but have wanted to become a pilot since i was six.

i was accepted by embry riddle and uni. of north dakota, both very good schools offering aviation degrees. however, a twist in the word "luck" spoilt all my dreams and now i find myself studying "literature".

i talked to lots of pilots and most of them dont have degrees in aviation. then again, a die-aviation minded guy like me should go for the a "major" he would want to build a career in, right?

when things dont work out the way u want, there's nothing much u can do about that. u have to be satisfied with what u "r" doing.

having a non-aviation degree is not a "period" for pilots. infact, most of the airline pilots in todays world are without one, as i was quoting earlier. so......... i really dont care if i am without an aviation degree. i am happy!!!

ciao and keep this place rocking!!! :cool: null

Rusty,

I did, did you not get my reply?

Tonks :)

Just incase I have re-sent it.

[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Tonkenna ]

Simple... do one you enjoy. If you enjoyed (for instance) Physical Geography at A level, do a degree in Geology with Geography.

Remember that it's got to retain your interest for 3 long, hard years!

Hello,

I agree with Lucifers post earlier on also WX Man. Firstly, you won't even get your degree if you choose it purely because you think it'll help you out as a pilot. SO choose something you want to do cause its bloody hard anyway.

Secondly, personally I wouldn't bother with an aviation related one. One of my friends who is an instructor started Aero Eng but dropped out in the second year just because he didn't enjoy it.

Try and choose a multipurpose degree. I'm in my second year of Law which I reckon is one of the best fallbacks to have.

Happy flying,

:) BAW22 :)

Universtiy degree
 

Hello all, im 16 and just doing my gcse's for alevel i will be doing chemistry physics and geography. i have just started thinking about university and have found this degree that interests me : http://www.city.ac.uk/engineering/ato/ it is a course that combines a degree with an ATPL, it is a very expensive option but do you people think it is worth it? please take a look at the site. i would have to take a loan from my parents and pay it off after the degree working with my dad. I have thought about joining the RAF and becoming a pilot there, what do people think of it. i dont want to be treated like a piece of turd for a few years, i dont know if that image is true but on tv people in army type jobs get treated like school kids. thankyou very much for your time and i hope you reply.:D

I know nothing about the course you refer to, and I'm sure others will comment appropriately. I would like to pick you up on your somewhat cursory impression of the RAF. The RAF is not 'an army type job'. They wear uniform, but that's about the limit of the similarity. Assuming you were up to the task, you would not 'be treated like a piece of turd' nor, unless you deserved it, 'like a school kid'.

If you wish to seriously consider the RAF as a place to begin your flying career, check out the RAF's careers website (I think it's www.rafcareers.com - if not, someone will correct me). The RAF is a highly professional workplace, with incredibly high standards. It is neither a place to belittle others, nor a place to while away time gaining hours towards a civilian licence. Unless you take it seriously, you will never be considered for its exceptional training and excellent flying.

As you might guess, I spent a considerable amount of time in the RAF as a pilot, instructor and recruiter.

thanks for your reply, i was not planning to join the RAF just to build up hours i would remain there for many years and eventually leave to become a commercial pilot. im sorry if my outsider impression was incorrect, its just that i dont want to be treated like the people are in the army. I dont think i could take that. Thanks for advice and i will now seriously consider a RAF career.

Cooldude - If you use the search engine on this forum you will find that the question of a university degree and in what subject has been examined at great length for your colleagues with similar concerns to yourself. The idea of a degree before doing a course of flying training is to give yourself an alternative to flying should you lose that hard won flying job due to redundancy or loss of medical. As I am sure you are aware, both are very real possibilities. Although this degree appears to enable you to continue working in the airline industry should your flying have to cease, there are two problems with it. First, the award of the qualification depends on you achieving an ATPL in a year. With the uncertainties of achieving this goal due to weather and exam re-sits, you may find your financial budget exceeded by a considerable margin. Second, if you lose your job it may be because of the cyclic depression in the aviation industry so there will be no ground aviation jobs available either. Thus if there is another subject that interests you which will enable you to take up a completely alternative career then this is worth serious consideration. I am sure you will have read posts from our honourable moderator about alternatives to a degree which also make a lot of sense. Remember that at most times all an airline will want to offer you a job is a licence and find at interview that their potential first officer is an "interesting" person.

best of luck with your final decision.

Dude,

An airline pilot is probably one of the few well paid professional jobs now where a degree is not essential, nor even hugely beneficial (when entering the profession anyway). But, a degree gives you many options if you fail or give up on flying training, lose your medical, just decide you don't enjoy flying so much after a few years, etc. that don't exist for somebody who ONLY did ATPL training. An aviation based degree also offers a great many professional options within aviation apart from pilot.

A further consideration is that the services do now generally prefer incoming officers (which other than in the army, includes all pilots) to have a degree. With regard to how people are treated in the services, expect to get treated like the smallest naughtiest schoolkid for about 6 months of basic training, and with moderate suspicion until you've shown more experienced colleagues your worth respecting. If you can live with that, the rest of the career you'd be treated like the important and highly trained professional that you would have become.

Do search on Pprune for discussion on other degrees. Personally I have a degree in Aeronautical Engineering (like a lot of other people round here), which hasn't prevented me or them gaining professional flying qualifications, but also allows many of us to do a lot of other professional jobs (specialisation is for insects !!!) with aeroplanes that other degrees wouldn't have. It was also a LOT of very hard work. At your stage, so long as you at-least pick maths and physics at A-level (pretty much compulsory for most of what you're likely to want to do) the options are wide.

I have an acquaintance, just as an example, who did an aero-eng degree, joined the RAF as a pilot, failed his Hawk course, and last I saw him was a very content squadron engineering officer looking after 20 or so Tornados.

Best of luck,

G

Cooldude,

Speaking as a youthfully optimistic aircrew member of the RAF, I can offer you a couple of pointers.
First of all, the RAF isn't like the Army whatsoever and ive had a whale of a time thus far. However, the lifestyle doesn't suit everyone and it needs careful consideration and research before you apply.
Secondly, the RAF has begun to change its policy over the last 18 months or so from one of sponsoring students to go to university before joining the RAF at 21 to one of an 'In Service Degree Scheme'
This scheme is in conjunction with the Open University and allows you to join the RAF at 18 and go through flying training whilst simultaneously studying for a degree in Aviation, Business etc. Indeed, some of your training counts towards your degree. No doubt the RAF Careers Office could help. The advantage to you is that you would leave the RAF with a degreee whilst the RAF would have you in service 3 years earlier - particularly relevant with the wait in between flying courses these days.
If i'd had the option at 18 I would have seriously considered it. In saying that, I took the normal Uni route and had the best time of my life!

Hope this helps

SVK

how important is a degree?
 

I am currently doing a degree, but things are kind of uncertain at the moment. Have to retake an exam and i don't feel that my heart is really in it. How important is a degree in relation to becoming an airline pilot which is my absolute dream. If i don't do the degree what is the best route to take to get to being in the right hand seat of a big jet?

I'd be really greatfull for some feedback.

Chears,

Richy.:confused:

Richy,

As I understand it (and I am no expert) a degree is not an entry requirement for airlines such as BA- it tends to be 5 GCSE's A-C in academic subjects and 2 A/AS Levels. Having said that, a degree is preferred- it doesn't matter too much what subject, but it shows that you have the will power and the academic strength to study intensively under your own steam and get the results at the end of the 2/3 years or whatever. Technically airlines would accept you without a degree, but it would improve your chances and improve the impression you make with the airline if you have a degree under your belt to accompany your other achievements.

As to what chances you would have of getting sponsorship (where the airline pay for all of or part of your training on the condition that you remain with the airline for a certain period) without a degree would be, I'm not too sure.

Try doing a search of Wannabes for this sort of thing, there have been loads of similar subjects and questions asked to this one.

Good luck,
Landing_24R :cool:

I'm probably going to get shot down for this, but IMHO a degree is little use for a prospective commercial pilot in the UK who is not expecting to apply for sponsorships. I have several degrees from the UK's premier higher education establishment, so I have no axe to grind on this!

However

The road to being a pilot is long and many fall by the wayside with their dreams in tatters and nothing but debts to repay.

There are lots of us low-hour newly qualified guys making ends meet outside aviation at the moment, partly thanks to Sep-11.

Always have a plan B - your degree will help with that. On average in the majority of industries having a degree opens more doors to higher incomes. It's a simple numbers game, and it all helps when your bank loan balance is a very big number!!!

I'm certainly glad of my plan B.

cheers!
foggy.

And the saddest truth of all...

If the aviation career doesn't work out and you are looking for a serious money-making career, an interviewer worth his salt will find out that you dropped out of Uni. That will earn you a few dozen negative marks (a quitter?)

You've started: you should finish.

Sorry. That's life.

Or join one of the "caring" professions. The pay is c~@p but the rewards are something else.

This is from personal rather than informed opinion. You have started so you may as well finish. A degree cannot hurt your chances in the buisness and will serve as a usefull back up should things not go the way you want.
Now is not the time to be rushing into a CPL course anyway and getting an education is one of the better ways to pass your time until a the job market becomes more favourable for the newly qualified pilot.
I cannot disagree with Landing or Foggy but I agree more with Keef. Don't let your ultimate goal interfere with the job in hand.

Having had the 'pleasure' of doing some (non-aviation) graduate-level interviewing, I completely agree with Keef. Unless you could convince me in the interview that your reasons for dropping university were valid then you wouldn't get the job. Full stop. You've dropped one thing 'because your heart isn't really in it' - we wouldn't take the risk that you would do the same thing with us.

I recognise that the aviation world is different here - it's one of the few well-paying jobs where they will not care. However, I think getting your degree is still relevant because you've got to get that CPL/IR - assuming that you aren't in a position to write a cheque for £60k and head off to Jerez then you'll have to earn the money. Dropping the degree could hit you twice here - you are going to have to explain to any prospective employee above the McDonalds level that you've dropped the degree, but you've got to do it without telling them you've left to chase a CPL/IR - if you admit that you're going to leave as soon as you can they're going to give that job to someone else anyway. As Keef says, sorry, but that's life.

There's no real hurry to train right now, so what I would do is get the degree, get a well-paid graduate job (there are still plenty around, especially in IT) and work for a couple of years saving your pay while doing the modular stuff evenings and weekends. When you're ready, dump it all to do the IR etc. and chase that dream job.

Sound advice from Evo,

I am in the position of looking to start the long road to the dream with the PPL. I have saved enough to complete this by Xmas and then start saving again.

Have you had your Class 1 yet? I would do this before you even think of quitting your degree. Also, you would need a damn good excuse as to why you quit. After all, it is only 3 years.

Lots of wise words have been posted here I also have a Degree
so I'm aloud to say It's not the end of the world if you don't have one really but it would look better if you finish your degree, and it can't look bad on your CV
even though it MIGHT not make you a better Airline pilot.
Also Given the state of the market TIME IS ON YOUR SIDE!

What A Levels and Degree?!
 

Hi Guys,

I am currently deciding which A Levels I am going to be taking next year.
I was wondering if any of you guys have any advise on what subjects to take.
I am thinking about Physics, Chemistry, Biology and English Language. Would anyone recommend any other possible subjects? I am also contemplating whether or not to take an ITC course, would IT be an advantage when it comes to applying to sponsorship schemes?

Thanks

Danny

Hey there Danny,
I'm currently going throught the second year of A Levels and take it from me, dont do a subject like Maths or Physics because the application form for BA told you so.... 6th form life is good, but if you're in a subject you dont enjoy, then its twice as hard and you're most likely to do badly in it, and that wont look good on your CV.

I asked this question over a year and a half ago and was told this:
Do the subjects you are good at and the ones that you enjoy, this will put you on a good path for the airline job that I take it you want (?) because you'll have good grades behind you.

For example, the Leeds uni course that I wish to embark on preffers me to have an A Level in Physics. I do English language, Geography and D&T but this isn't a problem as long as I show a MAJOR interest in getting that airline job.

You say you're thinking of doing English Language, I've really enjoyed this course even though its quite tough. It also gives you an advantage on the "people person" side of being an airline pilot I should imagine.

But sure, if you're good at physics and maths etc. and they will provide a good fallback in an area of work you'll enjoy if you fail to get the airline job, then go for them.

Good luck with whatever you choose and remember that end of termin the 6th form means 'go to the pub' ;)

Ian

Doing Maths rather than (say) Biology or Chemistry would be a good idea. If you don't go into aviation it'll open up a few doors. Think about what you would like to study at university (yes, I know it's a long way off), because if you're into your sciences Maths will be a real help if you go on to do a scientific degree. Remeber that most cadets have a degree - besides that, uni is a laugh, and a degree will provide you with a valuable safety net.

Having done the Standard Three (Maths, Physics, Chemistry) I did Engineering at uni - but with them I could have done (among others) IT, Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Medicine (believe it or not, you don't need Biology to get on to a medicine course, just Chemistry). I wish I'd done a more arty subject as a fourth A-level, so I think that English would be a good idea, as would a foreign language, if you're that way inclined.

But ultimately Ian's right, do what you enjoy. That way you'll do better at them, and UCAS points mean prizes.;)

I'm also in my second year of A-Levels, and have followed a mainly Science theme (which I enjoy), of Physics, Maths & Geography. I've decided to do Geography at Uni, so lets hope it pays of!

Jordan

Hi Danny_R

Loretta has said almost everything I want to say. Maths is always a good thing to have at A-Level. I wish I'd stuck at it and got a good grade instead of one of those pass grades (eek). Having said that, I did well in my other A-Levels and got in to uni on a Computer Science degree. Despite not doing well at A-Level maths, I found that any maths done at uni was done at some point or other at A-Level, so I had a bit of a head start. Anyhow, I managed to get a 2.1 in the end - if I'd worked a bit harder then I could have got a 1st, but hey...

I am currently studying my ATPL groundschool with Brisol. I got my PPL this summer. I've heard people mention that having maths is a must for ATPL, well it isnt, to be honest the maths I've encountered so far is no more than GCSE, and if there is some content of an A-Level standard, then it is treated as difficult maths, and they really push the boat out to simplify it. It works too.

To summarise, get good A-Levels and do a degree you really like. From the subjects you've chosen, you sound bright, so A-Level maths is probably well within your reach and will give you the edge. IT is good to have on your CV, but us Computer Scientists look down on it as not being very difficult (Its snobby I know, but true). Do this and your ATPL groundschool will be a breeze.

Other people may not agree with this, but its the degree that makes you really stand out - for example, I went for a preliminary interview with the RAF. The officer interviewing was looking for qualities that would make a good pilot, and one of them was a good educational background - I told him I have a 2.1 in computer science, and this immediatly put me in the same league as all other candidates, no further questions asked. Read what you like in to it, but it made me feel a hell of a lot more confident.

Good Luck!

Bodie

Danny

I don't want to get too deep into this, partly because it's been covered many times before on Wannabes, and partly because it's something that you should discuss in great detail with those who know you and your abilities best. That is, your teacher/tutor and your parents.

Don't make any assumptions about what qualifications are required by airlines - you'll probably be wrong! The only qualification required by a 747 pilot is an ATPL with a B747 type rating. The few but various sponsorships available have differing qualification requirements, but most will accept 5 GCSEs (which should include maths, a science and English) all at grade 'C' or above, and 2 A-levels - usually unspecified. A degree will always help, but there are no preferred subjects.

As Ian and Loretta say above, the most important thing is to do subjects you enjoy to the best of your ability. If you are missing any of the required GCSEs, sort that out now!

Dude, just to say that scroggs has totally got it right blieve, and the rest are spot on too. I'm kinda like Jordan D, doing the same subjects, but not because Im mad doing Physics & Math as some may tell ya, but I actually enjoy learning stuff like how there is no such thing as a centrifugal force (Sorry all you chemists!:D ).

I'm going into engineering myself again because I am so interested in doing it. I've always been a kinda mechanical genious since I was 5 or something (so ive been told). Ultimately flying is my goal. In the end, all you have to prove is that you're interested in flying and will do just about anything to get there!

I did A level human biology (i also have a degree in it) and am now finding it quite relevant to some of the ATPL studies. I didn't however do A level maths and now wish I had (though I can still cope with the mathmetical nature of ATPL with GSCE maths and the maths I picked up at degree).
Ultimatley go with what your good at and what you enjoy (as everyone else has said).... but if you don't mind me saying 3 a-levels in drama, art and religion or something like that probably won't be the most useful for a career in aviation.

Danny boy...

I had my heart set on an airline career from the day I started school. My intentions continued as I moved toward college. I was c**p at Maths at school but okay at everything else.

I chose Maths, Physics and English Language at A-Level. The main reason for doing Physics was because I liked it. Secondly it was a good subject to have under your belt when pressing for that airline job. Unfortunately I had to do Maths too as part of the A-Level (is this still the case??). English Language was something I had always had a knack for, that subject was the easy choice.

If you're going to become an airline pilot, (and I'm sure you will) - choose the subjects that suit you. Bear in mind the role of a pilot involves plenty of mental arithmetic, forward thinking, understanding of flight theory and everything that goes with it.

I was always told that if you had a GCSE in maths, english and science, you would always get a job, because they are "core subjects". I thought that if I had an Advanced grasp of these subjects, it would leave me in a very flexible position to go down many different routes.

For the record, I hated maths at first, but by the end of two years, if I'd have known then, what I know now.... I'd have done a degree in the flippin' subject !!

Best of luck with your A-Levels. Work hard.

As everyone else will say, it is most important that you choose subjects that you will both enjoy and succeed in. You won't succeed if you don't enjoy it, and there is no point doing a subject just cause you enjoy it if you end up getting ***** marks - you are getting into a competitive market.

However, if you are good at maths and physics, it is well worth considering them over anything else. They will be helpful when you are studying for your ATPL.

Chemistry is hard. It was generally considered the hardest A level at my school at the time. Interesting though...