Uni or Directly to OATS
 

Very Good Point hehe
Always look on the brightside. Thanks

School qualification requirements
 

Hello there!!

I was wondering if anybody on here could help me, but what school qualifications are needed to become a commercial pilot?

I know that GCSE's including mathematics (C grade or above) is necessary, but what about Physics at the same level? I also want to know, does it matter what A-levels you take, as long as you get an A-C grade pass?? I looked on the easyjet site, and it didn't mention any specific A-level subjects, just the passing grades, or does this change with the bigger carriers such as Iberia, B.A., SAS etc??
I ask this, because I am doing my A-levels in History, Govt and Politics and French - I already have my Spanish A-level... Would these still allow me to get a job in commercial aviation?

Thanks a lot,
George :)

I have to say "Yes" is does matter what A'Levels you take.

No matter what, or who says to you it doesnt matter, its does. All my college tutors say, nah it doesnt matter, pick what your good at. Its all rubbish and thats why i am taking my A'Levels again at 22.

If you apply to an Airline training scheme, they all ask for 2-3 A'Levels, they normally want Maths and Physics.

I came unstuck when i applied to CTC, they said no, so did FTE and OAT and Cabair with there airline schemes. Having the wrong A'Levels does however leave normal integrated training open.

Cabair would take me for a normal integrated scheme, but not for the FlyBE scheme, get that?

I am studying at Uni too, must admit, its not all its cracked up to be, i think when i have my A'Levels i will leave my degree and train with an airline scheme if there are any...

Degrees are not a waste of time, as if you loose your wings, you have a fall back plan/career. But i cant bare the thought of sitting for another three years in lectures when the job i want is sitting there, well more or less. I plan to do part time study to finish my degree of, takes 4-8 years to do, but if all goes well, in that time i wont need to call on it.

Also, i have figured my degree will cost around 9k per year, 9 x 3 is 27k, thats 50% of the fee for OAT give or take a few K.

Another thing is, an ATPL is a pro qualification right? I have a friend who is an Accountant, did no degree, but did his CIMA. He told me that the CIMA is regarded as higher than an accountancy degree, so the way i look at it, the ATPL should be seen as higher than a degree.

Academic accountancy is just completely different from professional qualifications - it is application of knowledge rather than learning and research. Equally the ATPL cannot be equated or even compared to a degree.

It is apparently true that one or two of the 'mentored' quasi-sponsorship schemes these days are tending to specify the subjects they'd like you to have at A-level, though I don't currently have references to say who wants what. I shall get them, however. If one of these schemes is your aim, you have to jump through whatever hoops they put in front of you.

That said, there are many more ways to get into airlines. None, so far as I know, specify any academic qualifications for direct-entry candidates. Until they do, continue to choose your subjects on the basis of what you enjoy and what you think may be of most use to you.

As for the 'equivalency' of the ATPLs to a degree, dream on! The ATPLs are an exercise in memorising simplified facts for a standard exam. While there is a great quantity of learning involved, the quality of the knowledge gained and demonstrated is pretty poor, and involves absolutely no free thought, interpretation, research or original work.

Scroggs

Out of interest then - do the schemes offered by Kingston, BCUC etc, that incorporate ATPL theory as part of the degree offer a "lower standard" of degree than other degrees? Or would you say that since they only make up part of a degree, this isn't true?

Just curious - no bone to pick!

Firstly, don't quote the entire post above your own. What's the point? We can all read...

Secondly, the degree courses you mention are a commercially-driven exercise by the various establishments, as are many degrees nowadays. The addition of the ATPL theory study is intended as a value-added attraction to persuade you to invest your money at their university; it is not included as an exercise in academic rigour. I suspect that the inclusion of these exams actually makes it more difficult for the course designers to convince the appropriate authorities that the course is sufficiently academically rigorous to qualify for honours status. That said, there are many less demanding subjects at degree level these days!

Scroggs

I never intended to state an ATPL is as good, or better than a degree in most cases. But if you take a look at thses new degree that lead to atpl.

You have BCUC, 3 years at Uni, studying ATPL modules and not alot else, so they are handing out a Degree for simply just doing an ATPL course.

I know that maybe you scroggs can answer this?

Who would you rather pic:

1) Airline Transport Pilot Degree with ATPL (3 years study of ATPL)
2) Integrated ATPL (14-16 months study)

I dont want to do the course down, but i do think that the degree holds no real value appart from its from a Uni.

I had a place at one of these ATPL and Degree schemes, i decided that it would be better to do an Engineering Degree and Modular ATPL's over three years, that way i get what i consider a "real" degree.

At the moment i am leaning towards stop dreaming of getting a degree and just getting the job i have wanted for as long as i can remember and just take the chance and go integrated and hope an Airline wants me.

So far i have found that OAT, FTE and CAT are strict about maths and physics A levels when applying for Airline Schemes, not the normal integrated schemes though. CTC "prefer" maths and physics but weather it makes a different is not know to me, all i know is that CTC dont recognise the BTEC Diplomas as 3 a'levels.

I am willing to jump to get on a scheme, i am taking Maths, Physics as well as Y1 of my Degree, if next summer i get though on a scheme if there are any around i will go for it, if i get rejected i will just do Y2 of Uni and try again the year after, if its No again i will do Y3 at uni and have a serious look at where i am going wrong or what i am doing wrong.

I could not agree more and it has no comparison at all with engineering and say, construction.

If you take a civil engineering project or a landmark building, most of those represent one offs, unique in design and build and inevitably require application of deep and complex knowledge. If you want something to think about with that, think about the Gurkin building in London - a steel structure with every piece of glass unique for its position and designed to fit as the building compresses as more weight is hung on the exterior.

A good construction manager / director earns a handsome six figure sum these days but then they have to know and apply an awful lot more knowledge and skill than the average ATPL.

Automation will replace the ATPL sooner or later, thats just a matter of time for public acceptance but it won't replace the engineer. After all, it will be the engineer who will devise the systems to replace the pilots. Of course they already have will the unmanned vehicles being used by the military.

please help
 

I am spanish, and all the educational system is totally different to hte one you guys have in england....

Could someone explain to me what means GSCE, A levels, B levels etc¿

Wich levels do you get during the last year at "high school"? (before going to college or Uni).

Please someone to enlighten me.... it is way confusing to me! Thank you and good luck with your career!

Ramon

GCSE - exams taken at age 16. Normally about 8 to 10 subjects.

A Levels. Taken at 18, prior to university. Normally 3 subjects.

B Levels - never heard of them!

Scroggs

A levels
 

Thank you very much, sir!
only 3 A levels?? this subjects are additional to the last "high school" year? are they mandatory?
cheers, things are a bit more clear now!

regards from Spain

The A levels are coming in for some criticism. Many schools and students are opting to do the International Bacalaureat which has a much broader range.


The main difference between many degrees and the ATPL stuff is the amount of free thinking allowed. With the ATPL, the aim is to pass the exams, so questions such as why.....? usually elicit the answer in the order of "you wont get a qestion like that in the exam so dont bother".

As someone who went through university 30 years ago even on what was regarded as a vocational type of course, the why questions were always the best.

Remember, the aims and objectives of a degree course and the ATPL are different.

The ATPL is to do something specific - it has no role in developing the enquiring mind, set off the imagination and stuff like that - its to pass the exam.

The degree is as much about the training of the mind, learning research techniques, turning thoughts into arguments and then expressing them.

Frankly any good graduate should be able to into any professional activity and do well having a well trained mind, they have the tools to continue learning. Doing the ATPL will frustrate the hell out of them because of the "non" learning style of "learning".

The ATPL - learn by rote and continue to learn by rote. Learning as much as is required for the next test and that's it.

The best aviation degree courses are those on offer in many of the US universities where there is some real academic rigour as well as the learning to fly. Some are engineering led, others are aviation business management led.

A-Levels 'dilemma'
 

Hello all first post and day on here,

I'm currently undergoing a mini 'dilemma', related to sixth form and A-Levels. At my current sixth form, I'm doing English Language, Applied Science and Computing. (And my maths GCSE again). However, I am not too keen on this sixth form, as it requires too much travelling each day which can be tired. BUT, if I have a better chance of gaining sponsorship doing these A-Level subjects, then I'm quite willing to stay there.

There's a sixth form in my town, which would require no bus journeys etc, however, there wasn't many subjects to do there, and I've chosen at my interview: Geography, History, Sociology and ICT.

I haven't left my other sixth form yet, and have been deciding all this weekend.

Problem is, would doing those A-Levels listed above at another sixth form hinder my chances of becoming a pilot, and gaining sponsorship? I'm willing to get a job to pay for myself, should I not get sponsorship, and I'm also wishing to go onto Uni to get a degree in Geography, should I go to this other sixth form.

If I stay in my current sixth form - Then I'll do something in computing. I enjoy both computers and Geography.

It's just very worrying, as becoming a pilot is my chosen career path - There's just no other job that seems as appealing!

Thanks all for your help, and sorry about the long post.


Stephen


P.S My dad has made me even more worried about going to this other sixth form, saying Geography, History, Sociology and ICT are 'neck-ended' subjects.



EDIT:
Nevermind, saw a similar post in this forum, which was replied to yesterday. Unsure whether to just put this in there or keep this post.

So in a nutshell, do the subjects that you're doing for A-Level really matter to become a pilot?

I'm still somewhat confused. I have the choice to stay on at my current sixth form and do a lot of travelling each day and be very tired and do English Language, Applied Science and Computing.

Or I can go to a sixth form in my town to do Geography, History, Sociology and ICT.

I'm thinking of applying for sponsorship.

Of crucial importance is what you are good at. Do not worry about anything else, other than gaining the highest possible grades that your potential allows, in order to demonstrate the highest academic skill possible, and if necessary to allow you to progress to university to study one of those subjects that you enjoy. If you fail to achieve results through doing the wrong subjects, you fail both on the aviation career potential, and the backup career options are diminished.

You are correct that there is another thread, with which this will probably be later merged.

Education
 

Hi.
This is just a basic question. If you don't get A-levels do you have no or very little chance of getting a sponsorship with an airline? Which would mean self-funding. Thanks All :)

You can visit the websites of the various mentoring airlines (none of them sponsor - you borrow the money and are responsible for servicing the debt) to establish the facts for yourself, but I think you will find that they all require at least 2 A-levels. If you do not have A-levels, or an equivalent or higher qualification, you will not be considered for these schemes.


Scroggs

help with course- please!!
 

i am doing my a levels in psychology, double IT and citizenship. i am 18 and hopin 2 get Bs or above in all those subjects. i am plannng to do a BSc course at uni. either airline or airport management or aerospace technology with management. i have another option ie aerospace technology with pilot studies. i have a few questions to put forward. could you please help me with these.

1st of all is it possible to get a sponsorship for doing this course at university?

is it sensible to do a course at uni 1st then get a job and save money 4 pilot training or do the Aerospace technology with pilot training course?

as im 18 and at last year of a levels, is der nything i can do that will look good on my CV. i have read a few articles but as im 18 i dun knw wht else i can do.

thanking yall in advance.

1) No

2) Yes, it is sensible to go to university, but it is not sensible to study a subject at university if there is any doubt that you will achieve a good degree from doing so. If you would achieve a better degree through doing psycology, then do that instead. While aviation degrees might indicate motivation, they are to a large extent unproven to help a flying career, and carry huge risk of being not interesting to a pilot wannabe, as they cover non-flying areas of business/engineering.

3) Work hard, have loads of extra-curricular activities up your sleeve that indicate teamwork, and demonstrate motivation towards an aviation career - perhaps by working at a local airfield. Army cadets/CCF/Scouts/sports - all are good.

PS - learn to type in longhand - text speak is a bad habit when you have a keyboard

Pawn of God, if you have the opportunity, do the Duke of Edinburgh Award. It's highly recognised and also helps to develop many skills. This is a big bonus on a CV.:ok:

Hello

I understand that I am most likely being a huge pain, and being one of those annoying newbies who comes on and expects his question answered, so I'm sorry about that.

But my question is, I'm currently doing maths at A level, and I hate it. I am awful at it (well, I think so. And I am compared to many of my peers in the same class). Somehow (dont ask me how) I managed to get an A* at Maths in GCSE, but now, at A level, I'm behind almost everyone in my class (although it is top set).

Obviously, I am posting this here because I want to be an airline pilot. I am currently taking my PPL and soloed on my 16th birthday, so flying experience should (hopefully) be easier to get than these A levels.

Anyway, back to the question in hand. What should I do? I am doing 4 A levels at the moment: Physics, Computing, Geography and, of course, the dreaded Mathematics (plus general studies, but that doesnt really count as a proper A level). I really enjoy the first 3 subjects, and feel I am quite strong and confident in them, but the latter is causing me issues, as I dont understand half of the stuff, such as Calculus, for example. If I need this to be an airline pilot, then oh dear, but I'm usually quite happy with things such as percentages, arithmetic and the like.

Now, I have an assessment in all of my subjects in under a fortnight. If I do badly in maths, given the choice, should I continue with it, or drop it? If I continue, it will mean I'd have at least an AS level in maths, although it may not be a good one. If I drop it, I may be able to boost marks in my other subjects, and also be happier (no stress with maths). However, I really want a job with the airlines. So would a (possibly poor) A level in maths do much for me? Or are my other A levels good enough for airlines to want me? I've read airlines prefer physics and maths, but it doesnt say they are required. So if I got a good A level in Physics, as well as Geography and Computing, would that be satisfactory?

I have read most of the pages on this topic, but have found mixed responses; some say you should do what the airlines want, or else you will be rejected. Others say you can still get a job if you just do the subjects you are interested in.

Thankyou so much for your help.

You could always do this and kill 2 birds with 1 stone an all that...
http://www.cabair.com/kingston/index.htm

Hi,
I at the moment and in my last year of college doing A levels and the following year I'm planning on doing joining the pilot school. I have at the moment done AS Levels in Maths, Physics and Spanish, and this year I'm doing Maths, Physics, Spanish and Business Studies. I live in Spain, but as I've heard about the poor situation here, I'll have to most probably apply to different airlines around Europe. Now, my question is that apart from having A levels, nowadays airlines do require having a University Degree, but what questions me is what university degree should I do and will it help me in any way? Also, is it necessary for me to do a Universtiy Degree to enter in an airline or are A levels, and the flying hours of course, enough? I want to know this because I don't want to waste time doing a 4 year degree wasting time.
Thanks.

Hey davidson2006,

I am going to assume you have zero knowledge on the routes into aviation, and try to give you a realistic look at your prospects from your stage.

Your A level choices should be purely based on the subjects you enjoy. Simple as that. If you prefer French to Maths, then choose French. Don't choose a subject that you think will land you on a flight deck in 5 years time, as it will not be in your best interests if you don't really like the subject, and you'll spend a miserable two years studying a subject which you may well do badly in. The best bit of advice to be given here is, do what you enjoy. It's the best way to succeed at A level. Work hard at school and get the best results you can; sounds like a no brainer, but when you come to job applications, in any field (flying or not), this is when these sort of things become important.

The things you're doing at school sound good as well. The ATC is a good chance to get involved with flying (military flying is the best in the world, no doubt about it). Do the gliding scholarship, and get as much flying as possible in the Tutor as you can. See at the end of it whether you are still as enthusiastic about it as you were before you ever stepped inside an aircraft.

One thing I would say is have you considered University? Many people leave school at A level or GCSE level and expect to walk straight through an ATPL course and on to British Airways. This is a naive expectation. University will do a lot to broaden your experiences, perhaps give you an idea about other possible career paths, as well as general life experience and maturity. Remember, airlines will be looking for someone with a sensible head on their shoulders, not just a 'fresh out of secondary school' bright eyed, if somewhat immature young lad. University also gives you a chance to develop important social and other skills, such as teamwork, leadership, and communication. All in all, good life experience. Also bear in mind the University Air Squadrons, a sort of follow on from the ATC. These can only be described as awesome fun - lots of flying, which you get paid for, the best instruction, and some great fun to be had. I know this from personal (current!) experience.

Things to avoid: rushing into things. ALWAYS plan things: don't expect to pay Oxford Aviation (or similiar company) 60,000 and expect a job straight up. Look at all your options (including whether aviation is right for you). Perhaps the best advice I can give you is to do the GAPAN aptitude tests at Cranwell ( google the word 'GAPAN'). This will give you the best indication of your suitability towards professional aviation as a career, and they will also give you more good advice. Lastly, check the CAA website for the medical standards required for Class 1 certification; important to make sure you can pass these important hurdles!

Of course, there's a lot more info to be had. Feel free to PM me, and look around the rest of this site. There's a LOT of useful info to be found in these hallowed pages!

Eoin

What you said was all good advice, although I would also point out that the ATPL theory course requires a lot of previous knowledge of math and physics. Haven't come accross much French in my notes so far. ;)

I concur with Hour Builder, a good grounding in maths will help enormously with your ATPL ground school to the point where I would recommend Pure Maths and Applied Maths as separate A Levels!

Cheers

Whirls

I took Maths and Physics as A-levels, then obtained a BEng(hons) degree in Aerospace Engineering, and the ATPL theory is still hard.

Don't think a degree in business or French would have made the ATPL's any easier then I am finding them now

And how much of the ATPL requires you to know how to integrate, partial differentiation or what the heck are complex numbers. How much of the ATPL requires you to understand thermodynamics or metal removal rates of a tungsten carbide drill!

The ATPL theory requires that you can add, subtract, multiply, divide, understand the basics of algebra and trigonometry. Nothing that is beyond any O level Maths students grasp.

If the guy wants to study pygmy and sumarian architecture for his A levels, then let him do what he enjoys and don't fill his head with scary stories of how hard the ATPL's are. It the quantity of knowledge that is daunting, not the quality.

How much of the ATPL's requires a good knowledge of French?

I stated that having obtained the qualifications I have, the ATPL's are still tough, and not only in quantity.

If I took things I really enjoyed at school, I'd have some degree in Sports science, and all we are trying to say is that to have a good foundation for what is to come with the ATPL's, a good knowledge of Maths and Physics is needed.

I dont see how you can argue with that, perhaps you are a little out of touch, seeing as O-levels were replaced by GCSE's maybe 15-20 years ago. :=

Choose subjects you enjoy, as long as you have decent grades in maths and science/physics GCSE, you should be alright. Dont go choosing subjects that you think are good for aviation but dont really enjoy, the two years of alevels will be a drag and pretty much $h*t. Trust me, i know! Go for subjects you enjoy and will excell in :ok:

Keep yourself involved in team activites. I decided that i didnt want to leave alevels and go straight into flight school, i much thought it was best for me to go university, doing cumputer science, something which i am enjoying. I have got involved in cricket, played to county level (not anymore, one bad match:p ), and also have a level one coaching cert, so i coach the youngsters at my club back in london.

As much as i want to be a pilot, wise words have been said, dont rush into things, and plan what you wish to do.

Good luck for the future and your alevels.

The shape of the ADF radio beam is called the "limacon" which in French means "small snail" and refers to the snail's shell. Thats the only reference to the French language in the ATPL's that I can make out.

A good working knowledge of French may help you when the French Air Traffic Controllers go on strike again!!!

Nice one. I should have put a bet on that someone would hunt through their notes to find something French. Want to see how long it takes me to find something in my notes related to maths? :}

I made the mistake of studying A Levels which I thought would be useful, and didn't do as well as I could have done, so re-assessed and changed some subjects in my second year. I think that the ATPL groundschool teaches you everything you need to know for the exams - how well you do is mostly down to how much effort you are willing to put in. One person in my class left school at 16 and still did ok, although he stuggled getting back into revision after 6 years. As some posters have mentioned already it's the intensity and volume of information not the difficulty of it.

Davidson you definitely seem to have the motivation and I am sure you will get there - my point is that A Level subjects really don't matter, people just want to see you can apply yourself. I am certainly not the brightest tool in the toolbox but put my life on hold and slogged away for a 93% average - having done art based A levels. It can be done! Good luck

:ugh:

I did not say you don't need an understanding of Maths and Physics, I said that you don't need A-levels in the subjects to get through the ATPL ground school. Basic arithmatic, algebra and trigonomtry is all that is required.

For the record, I did A-Levels in Maths and Physics, went to a very nice Uni and studied Mech Eng. And at no point in my ATPL's did I find any of it any use. I will state again, it's the volume of knowledge that is the crippling factor, not the content.
Looking back now, I think it would be nice to make a degree out of the ATPL subjects. Then you could go into much more depth with some of the subjects, especially with repsect to Met, POF. Come out three years later, aged 21 and ready to start flight training. Would stop the age old question ATPL or Uni that starts on this board once a week.

Oh, and Cabotage is another French word. :E

I find it hard to believe that you think your A levels in Maths and Physics along with your degree in engineering provided no help at all for the ATPL theory.

Please also point out where I said you "need" A levels. I said I had them and still find it tough.

:ugh: see if i use :ugh: must mean I am right too

Fine, you may not agree with me, and that's your right, but the level of maths and physics required is only up to GSCE, not A Level and certainly not degree level knowledge. So, it matters not a flying fig what A levels or degree you do, so you may as well do something you like.

Thats the point I am trying to make, nothing else

Not that I know, but does anyone know if having a degree more related to the aviation field, such as engineering etc actually helps when it comes to getting an interview for your first airline job.

Obviously, flying ability is going to determine whether someone gets the job, but I am talking about actually getting an interview. Does a degree stand out on a CV, and if so would a degree in engineering stand out more then some flower arranging degree?

If an employer has two CV's both with minimum JAR CPL/IR hours and one has a degree in engineering, and the other has no degree, or a degree non aviation related, which would they choose.

HB

There was a study done by GAPAN, probably a bit old now, they asked airlines what they wanted and expected of their low houred applicants and education was about 7th on the list.

Thats very interesting, wonder what the first 6 were?