Do you really Want to Do This...??
 

Sorry to disillusion the enthusiastic amongst you ....But being a pilot aint what it used to be....
I've been in this business for many years now and have watched employment conditions and pay getting worse every year. I fly long haul at present and have been told that if I want to keep my job I must relocate...the lousy re-location package on offer is going to mean that I will have to pay out of my own pocket to relocate...quite substantially.....
Some airlines call for you to pay for your own type ratings,one even charges you just to look at your CV!!!!!!.On top of all this you will have to pass sim rides every 6 months, a medical every 6 to 12 months depending on your age...and at 60 the CAA will take your licence back. Companies go in and out of buisness at an alarming rate...so unemployment is very likely at least once in your career...all this movement means that pensions can be hard to arrange. I'm afraid that companies don't value us at all. We seem to be a necessary expese that, if they could do without,... they would. I could go on,.....be carefull. Flying can be great fun....working for airlines aint. You might be asking...if he aint happy why doesn't he leave.....Well I'm working towards doing just that. I can't afford to work for an airline anymore. If you have a good job/career ...I suggest you try to excel in it and keep your flying private. That way you will continue to enjoy aviation.
So take the rose coloured spectacles off and take a good in- depth look at the Industry before you commit a penny. Or you are likely to become another lamb to the slaughter.

wow

Ya know, ive been considering going into the airline industry for a few years now, i even started taking flight lessons before Sep 11th. I always wondered what the inside scoop was on the airlines, whether or not they were blowing smoke just to keep applicants out, or if they were actually serious. This scares me quite a bit, because learning to fly is no small investment, especially to start making the big bucks. However, ive been sending out for information packs to various flight schools here in the USA, and from what i understand, the Airline industry, as well as the demand for pilots is supposed to pick up within the next couple years. I love flying, i have fourty some hours and ive loved every minute. So my question to you is; would it be beneficial to persue an aviation career outside of the airline industry? air mail? corporate flying? With your education and ratings, it seems like there would be tons of opportunity to make lots besides the airline industry...

Also, are the airlines in the USA still suffering? or has the buisness started to pick back up?

T13x

This is so transparent it's unbelievable!:uhoh:

Sorry, I could go into the world of spelling, but....:sad:

It's always good to get an insight into the realities of the industry, so thank you deathcruzer. How altruistic to sign up especially help us wannabes make an informed decision:ok:.

In a way i find the usual list of pilot grievances quite comforting, though, as they are all issues that are far outweighed by the negative aspects of my current job or any 9-5 ground-based office job I see myself having in the future. I suppose things like this are very subjective in their nature and many will be put off by regular assessment and medicals yet enjoy the routine of joining the rush hour traffic and shared moments ove the water-cooler. So, i suppose to answer the question of "do you really want to this?" you need to know about what "this" entails and go in with both eyes open.

There's no question that being a pilot isn't what it used to be but personally it's cons are far outweighed by those of any other path i could follow.

I have been in the business of wanting to be in the business for many years now. To be precise, 17 years ago, I was trying for the RAF...no go through eye sight, and 15 years ago I was told I would never fly in any capacity through medical reasons.

This resulted in a 6 year catering career followed up by 8 years of IT sales. Everyone of those 14 years unhappy because I could not fly. I spent every hour looking up with envy.

Now I know that life as a pilot has changed and I think that it is right and propper that potential pilots go in to their chosen careers with there eyes open, thus deathcruzer's post is positive.

However, I would like to open his or her eyes to something that may have been forgotten over many years.

Flying on the whole is a passion for people, I believe all the more so now, in light of the costs and future expectations. I am sure you once had a passion deathcruzer, that has obviousely wilted.

I just say to you, remember how lucky you are, and if you have never experienced standing on a train platform in the pooring rain at 4am to get into a job you hate in London with another 14 hours ahead of you before the same miserable platform, then think twice before jumping ship. You may on the other hand have the money to invest in a nice little hotel or bar...but remember, I have been there aswell.

I believe that I may well have been the same had everything gone my way, but it didn't. I now have my F ATPL at 33 going on 34 and will do all in power to get a job doing what I love. I also continue to encourage people to persue ther dream in what ever way may suit. And yes deathcruzer, that may be flying for fun, but please remember where you were once upon a time.

Realistic evaluation is good, but dragging elements of the industry down surely can't.

In fairness, before I sent this post, I re read yours and although annoyed initially, I think I can see where you are coming from.

I certainly agree with the oppinion that pilots or students are being sucked dry in many ways and in an unfair manner, but this I, maybe naively, believe will change for the next regular cycle.

Harves

This is hardly news.

It is also not exclusive to pilots.

Whatever job you do, you will most likely feel undervalued, become bored with the daily routine, not be paid enough, and be made redundant several times during your career. It's probably true that the aviation industry is worse than many, but it's certainly not unique.

You adivce that "If you have a good job/career ...I suggest you try to excel in it and keep your flying private" is definitely worth considering. I've considered it, and I've decided it's not for me. I don't want to spend 40 or more hours a week doing something I hate. I am well paid - sufficiently well paid to realise that money is not everything, and that as long as I have enough to pay the bills I would rather not spend my life doing something I don't enjoy.

"So take the rose coloured spectacles off and take a good in- depth look at the Industry before you commit a penny." Very good advice to anyone. Some will take a good in-depth look and decide they don't like what they see. Others will decide that, for all its flaws, this is the industry they want to work in.

FFF
---------------

Hear hear!!

You can earn all the money you can dream of but if you are unhappy you will never be happy. I have had jobs that have paid badly and have paid well ; the satisfaction and happiness I derived from those jobs has not been proportionate to their reward.

On the other hand you owe it to yourself to look long and hard at what you are proposing to do and beyond the glossy exterior at the terms and conditions, the hours and the lifestyle. If you still want to do it then you owe it to yourself to at least try.

It’s an interesting discussion, and I think FFF has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Deteriorating pay, conditions, satisfaction and job security are by no means limited to aviation. My parents, both now retired, never once suffered unemployment; I know few people of my generation who haven’t had at least one spell out of work. A good friend with 15 years’ I.T. experience (a licence to print money not so long ago) has been made redundant twice in the last 2 years. If life is harder and less rewarding for pilots than in days gone by, I believe it’s simply a reflection of the way society in general is going.

So why do I really want to do this? I’m fortunate in having a reasonably safe job that’s reasonably well paid and rewarding, and has reasonably good prospects. If I told a financial adviser what I’m planning to do, he’d probably give me a good slap and tell me to pull myself together and be grateful for what I’ve got. The trouble is, it bores me silly – always has done, always will. Include commuting and my job eats up 12 hours per day. In other words, 50% of my entire Monday to Friday life is spent doing something I don’t want to do. Great. And I really don’t fancy another 30 years plus of knowing exactly where to stand on the platform so I’m next to the doors when the train stops, just so I can get on in front of all the other sullen commuters.

I realised what I wanted to do the first time someone said “you have control.” And I realised why I wanted to do it during my first jumpseat ride; zero dark hundred one horrible winter’s morning, while the rest of humanity was stumbling around in freezing fog, or standing in the right place on station platforms, we left them all behind and burst out of the overcast into a glorious, crystal clear dawn sky. It was a pivotal moment for me – the airway to Damascus if you like. :) I knew this was what I had to do.

Now in case that sounds dangerously like falling in love - and we all know how blind love can be – I am well aware of the downsides. Many of the pilots I jumpseated with described how the career can be a killer on marriages, how you can miss seeing your kids grow up, living out of a suitcase in anonymous hotels, the job insecurity, incompetent management, etc etc. Not one of them said they’d rather be doing something else.

It was summed up neatly by a very senior pilot of a well known UK charter airline, with whom I was lucky enough to be sharing a glass of wine a couple of months back. Explaining my predicament, that I want to walk away from a safe, sensible career and risk it all to become a commercial pilot, and that - by most reasonable analyses - I must be slightly bonkers, he said; “There is no sensible answer. We all do it because we love flying, it’s as simple as that.”

If you want job security, join the civil service. If you want money, be an accountant or a lawyer. If you want to fly . . .

Great post G SXTY !!!!!:ok:

One of the most inspiring post i've ever read.

jam

Jam123 & G SXTY - you've summed it up for me! If ever I had the remotest doubt in my mind, I can totally, 100% relate to your post. It's easy to lose sight of your dream, caught up in the commuting lifestyle, so it's great to know none of us are alone in all this!

Deathcruzer?
 

What the :mad: is this troll doing here?
Just a big wind-up.....just one post
Hear hear G-SXTY....

Exactly B2N2, can't believe you all took it seriously, but that said, some nice posts here, covering the reasons why we all do it!

:ok:

I wrote a thread in this section called "Airline Pilot or Flying Instructor" because I read a similar post to this one. I got some interesting replies which may be worth a look by everyone in here.

Regards

Lee:)

I’m going to stick my neck out here and say I take deathcruzer’s post at face value; I suspect he / she isn’t out to wind us up (apologies if you really are a troll). ;) I wouldn’t necessarily ignore an opinion just because I don’t like the message.

And even if it is a wind-up, so what? This is still a valid discussion, and it is vital that wannabes have as much information as possible on their chosen career before they commit themselves. I don’t hear anyone arguing over that point.

One of the problems with being a wannabe is the paucity of information from ‘the horses mouth.’ There is a whole training industry out there that will try and convince you commercial flying is the best job in the world, but they’re not entirely unbiased now, are they? I want to get as many opinions as possible from current and former commercial pilots, as well as wannabes who are further up the training ladder than me – people who are doing what I want to do and have already got the T shirt.

That’s one of the principal reasons Danny set up Pprune in the first place – to give wannabes the chance to seek information and advice from professionals. Before 9/11 we at least had the chance of an occasional jumpseat ride with which to glean information (and very enlightening it was too – I now know which hotel at EHAM holds the KLM record for bedroom gymnastics, but I digress). :)

Now the flight deck door has been closed on us, we are more dependent than ever on resources such as Pprune. I would like nothing better than to see this thread filled with pages and pages of advice from commercial pilots, all of which will be helpful to me in shaping my plans. At the same time, I recognise that it’s a bit unrealistic to expect every single airline driver in the whole world to say; “Come on in, the water is lovely”. That doesn’t make their opinion any less valid, and I would humbly suggest that shouting ‘troll’ at the messenger isn’t going to encourage them to put finger to keyboard.

I agree that there have been some inspiring replies to this post but i think all in all for the majority of us wannabees

The answer to Deathcruzer's question

"Do you want to do this...? !

is yes!!!

we do want to do this!

A340 :)

Sorry to say that as a 757/767 skipper, Deathcruzer has just about hit the nail right on the head!! No need to elaborate here I feel.

C'mon Easy Glider, don't hold back tell us your story.
You've gone further than the most of us, give us some inside view.
I know for sure I've toughened up and grew a lot more cynical in the last 4 (hard) years.
Understand now why some people wouldn't even talk to me when I was a starry eyed bushytailed PPL.
You're in this trade to either make it or you don't :ouch:
I personally know quite a few people who fell by the way side and didn't make it quite as far as they initially thought they would for whatever reasons.
Sometimes it's lack of character and stamina that's for sure.
So if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen sort of thing.

HOWEVER........
Very few people (and none of them in the aviation training world)
have ever told me how difficult it could be.
They are obviously very happy keeping up appearances and making hot air balloons.
Sure...people get lucky..I know one guy who was called at home(!) by a flagcarrier's head hunter and asked to come work for them. He just got his CPL ME with 280 hrs. They paid for the rest of his training. This was in the early 80's during the airline boom.
I have never assumed the same would ever happen to me..and guess what, turns out I was right all along it never did happen to me.
I do know that everything I have achieved comes trough MY hard work and taking chances and risking everything.
I've had a couple of good people (you know who you are) give me opportunities at times when everything seemed bleak and endless. What comes around goes around :ok:
Anyways, enough preaching for this time....
Whoever started this thread we surely hijacked it right didn't we ?

In any field of endeavour you will find those who've become disillusioned because their expectations have been frustrated. For many airline pilots, the job has taken a big turn for the worse since 9/11 simply because the security situation has removed much of the relaxed attitude that was prevalent beforehand. For some, it's gone too far and they're taking their skills elsewhere. For the majority, it's just another part of the evolution of the profession.

50 years ago an airline pilot was akin to a god for many people. They were rare, well-paid, very mysterious characters who had much of the appeal of film stars of the time. The job was totally different to what it is now - in some ways harder, in others easier - but totally different. With the expansion of air travel and the improvements in aircraft, there are now many thousands of pilots flying incredibly complex (but simple to operate) aircraft through a flight environment (both legal and practical) that would have terrified those early pilots, who would have happily hand-flown a big four-prop through a tropical storm onto an unlit runway in Africa! And now they can all expect to reach and enjoy a long retirement, which was most certainly not the case in the early days!

It was much more glamourous and unreachable in those days, and some of those guys who've flown throughout much of the intervening period now resent the 'normalisation' of the profession into one that almost any intelligent, able and resourceful person can attain. They may also resent the degree to which other factors and people influence the operation of a modern airliner - where in the old days the captain made every decision relevant to the flight, now tens or even hundreds of others are involved in the process.

I've been flying since the mid 1970's, and operating four-engined long range aircraft since 1980 (though for much of that time in the military), and I've seen for myself how much it's changed. For me the essence of piloting a large aircraft, however, is still as it was way back then. The challenge of simply poling the thing is as satisfying as it ever was. I feel happiest working as part of a team, and the whole operation is much more of a team effort than perhaps it used to be. I don't feel myself to be better than others, or in some way special, so I don't worry that the profession has lost some of its prima donna elements - which, of course, appealed to many of the older generation of pilots (but if it appeals to you, you may be looking at the wrong profession!).

Flying aeroplanes commercially is not worse than it used to be, but it is different. Some embrace the changes, others do not. Don't be worried by the variety of opinions and personal stories you hear or read; that's just the rich diversity of life.

Scroggs

Good post Scroggs. And thanks for those experienced to take the time and post what you feel about the career.

But there are so many threads here at the moment that reading PPrune does knock the confidence and make you wonder why you've spent all morning going through the mass and balance chapters for the ATPLs.

Still, onwards and upwards. :}

I'll keep this simple:

You spend your entire working life behind a locked and barred door. In the case of the most commonly used low cost aircraft in a space just the same as a downstairs loo.

Most of you are of an age where you will face 30, perhaps 40 years of this.

What?? They didn't mention that in the FTO brochure???

FACT: There are much nicer, more healthy ways of earning a living and still flying nice aeroplanes.

Regards from the Towers
Rob

We all know why we started it. You really do have to love flying or else you just wouldn't bother. Yeah, the view is nice and I enjoy the flying but as the aircraft get bigger the less flying I do. (ie autopilot etc). The most fun I had flying was tootling around in bugsmashers in the Australian bush. (Aka GAFA). WHy didn't I stay? A$20,000 isn't enough to survive and plan a life. YOu just have to get onto the bigger toys just to ensure you'll have enough cash to retire on.
Flying passengers these days is just how PPT described it. Locked doors, no contact with the people and not much contact with the FA's. Every thing is done at a rapid pace and there's little time when on the ground to stretch your legs, let alone have a look at where you are. You'd better get used to sitting in squishy cramped flight decks. When you go to work you are treated as a potential threat every time you sign on. ie scanned, bags x-rayed, security checks that go back even further these days.
Now, that assumes you're flying something reasonable.
What if the best you can do at the moment is fly a "tired" old freighter? You've paid for that priviledge and your income is pretty poor. Heating? What's that? It's 2am, -20 OAT and not much better inside. Hungry? Tough. Nothing's open and Ops just rang to tell you about the 2 extra sectors you're now going to do.
Sleep? Forget it. Need to go to the toilet? Good luck. Every thing's shut.
Want to move on? Well, a few employers look at your instructing/turboprop experience with suspicion. Oh, you've flown turboprops, can't fly jets then. Gee, that's a lot of instructing you've done, couldn't get a charter job? Now you have to start watching the age v experience curve too.
Ahh, brilliant, got the good job at last. Oh no, recession and your seniority number just isn't high enough. Off you go, good luck.
No worries, you think, I'll do something else to tide me over. As many in Ansett found out, just what skills can an airline pilot bring to another industry. You got it, none. Better have some savings (haha) or another skill.
How's the health? Better keep it good for 40+ years. Don't get cancer and don't have a heart attack. Have a bad day in the sim and fail a check. Better not fail the next one or else you're out. No pressure hey?
Most of the time you'll find that the crew you work with are great. It's management that will wear you down. Just about every one I speak to will agree with me on that one.
So, some of you don't like what the experienced folk are saying. Listen carefully and weigh it all up. These days, I just want my pay to turn up on time, allowances paid in a reasonable time and a stable roster.

I feel I am one of the lucky ones. I have had a varied and interesting career so far. I have flown in some of the most amazing places and seen stuff that next to no one will see. I would hate to have gone straight from flight school into a jet. I would have missed out on too much fun and learning. Am I rich? No. Spent the lot converting my Australian ATPL to a JAR one. Would I do it again? Possibly, but certainly I would do things in a different way.
Note, the flying schools will not tell you this.
Good luck, caveat emptor.

Good to see the big guns have joined in now...welcome moderators:ok:

Ok Redsnail. Nice post. What would you do differently then?

I´d like to reiterate a few of the posts above. The job HAS changed, and for the worse. When you are starting out, life IS rosy. WOW! People are paying ME to fly!! After a few years. the enthusiasm starts to wane, for whatever reason. A lot of us still get a kick out of doing a walkround and as for "poling it", well, fantastic!.
However, the long time away from home , constantly degrading terms and conditions , security and general hassle don´t cut it anymore. Look at a lot of pilots in BA or other big airlines, and a lot of us work the minimum or close to it. Basically, we´re trapped. The job is what you make of it, but 9/11 was the final straw. It is very difficult to get out of the F/D nowadays, and as for meeting new people (i.e pax or cabin crew).... forget it. There just isn´t the time. The job isn´t what it was 15 yrs ago when I joined, and I was hearing the same thing then from the old-timers....

no sponsor,
A lot of what I would do differently pertains to Oz because that's where I started from.
Firstly, I wouldn't have worked as a lab tech in biology. I would have got an apprenticeship or similar to get engineering (maintenance) experience/quals. This would have made me a lot more employable much earlier on. Not many out of work maintenance engineers. I would have gone to a different school, that error alone cost ~$15,000.
I wouldn't have stayed bush flying/VFR flying for as long as I did. I think that cost me dearly. After I got out of bush flying things went reasonably well.
Regarding this JAR thing? I got caught by a rule change and that cost me a few quid. In hind sight I probably should have stayed at home and done it distance learning. I and no one predicted the WTC Sept 11 disaster.

20/20 hindsight is a beautiful thing. If I was 38 and starting off, I would seriously reconsider that idea.

How did you know I've just turned 38 reds? :(

Let's face it, no one enjoys any job all of the time. I just believe that the percentage will be highest if I was flying for a living!

No guys I ain’t a troll, and this isn’t a wind up….I fly wide bodies around the world, I haven’t been replying to posts because that is what I have been doing, If that upsets you then think how my wife feels…
This is/was one of the best jobs in the world.....My point is that providing you don't mind a high level of insecurity in your life...watching incompetent management destroying what is left of this industry, and accepting the status of Taxi Driver, this should work for you. I was one of the most enthusiastic guys at the start of all this.... But frankly my 8 year old son could do a better job than most of the overpaid so-called managers this industry has.
Our enthusiasm is quite frankly used against us....and our lifestyle has suffered as a result.
Bear in mind that in later years there are more individuals to consider than yourself. Wives have a habit of finding many aspects of this job difficult to deal with ....to the cost, very often, of the marriage. Perhaps it is a general problem most face in society today...... Perhaps I should start my own airline.......( Fat chance)… the money to get that up and running is astronomical....and the paperwork........
No, I’m not trying to put you all off.....Just be aware of what you are letting yourselves in for...:suspect:

deathcruzer, I suspect that your description of management could be applied to most industries today. It certainly is the case where I work now. But that is not why I'm training to leave this industry and join the aviation one. There's nothing here now that I'm trying to run away from, incompetent managers included. It's my enthusiasm towards all things related to aviation that is drawing me towards your industry. So thanks for the warning but it's no different to what was expected. This is the age where budget management is more important than people management.

Regards
Stoney X

Artificial Horizon,

I’m sorry to hear that, but I’m convinced you need to disregard all the negatives associated with this profession if you really want to succeed and be happy. Of course, with a wife to please, it’s not always feasible.:*

You almost need to put the rest of your life on hold until you reach the ideal situation i.e. for you perhaps an airline job with fewer sectors/higher pay or leaving the airlines completely for another flying job….scenic flights for tourists in New Zealand?:cool:

So, sacrifices have to be made all every stage…from the wannabe who would sell his/her mother to get into the RHS to the overworked Capt who wants quality of life.

Anyway, make sure you look after No.1, after all, if you stress too much you could fail the next medical.:ugh:

Could you go back to your previous profession if you chose to? Maybe fly at weekends for fun…

K2

So what are the POSITIVES of being a Pilot then?

(Apart from having your pick of the finest Stewardess):8

You don't get caught up in traffic jams in the morning....(forget the hosties....most are married...):E

Master Yoda,

I would guess that, to most of the people on these forums, the positives of being a pilot are bl00dy obvious. And those people to whom they are not bl00dy obvious would probably be best looking for another career, rather than putting up with all the negatives when you can't see the positives.

I'm sure you fit into the category who can see the positivies without any help! ;)

FFF
---------------

Sure I know the positives, but list what benefits you get from being an Airline Pilot, what do you get with the job: (benefits/perks, what airlines offer their Pilots I'm talking), rather than focusing on the 'stuck in a tin can' thing or just loving being behind the controls.

(i.e. paid car hire? company credit card? etc etc)

Cant talk about other airlines...but my lot give us b:mad: r all.......crew travel..all standby.
You do get 100 pounds / year service off company flights.Doesn't save much though.Cant even get family on the f/d jumpseats now.....(not the fault of the airline that one)

Master Yoda this is the wrong thread to be discussing the finer points of employers' terms and conditions - that's what the Terms and Endearments forum is for. This discussion is about what drives people to join or leave the flying profession. Perks and benefits are not likely to have any influence on someone's decision to take up flying; they are really only relevant to which employer you may wish to work for. And that point is discussed interminably over on T&E.

I have to say that if women, hire cars and credit cards are your principal motivation for aiming at airlines, wouldn't you be better off doing an MBA and joining the city rat race? You'll end up with more money and perks - and maybe a better lifestyle.

Scroggs

master yoda

better to be an eagle for one day than a chicken all your life.....

Its all relevant methinks, what else do we get for our £60,000 spent on training!

Well, you don't get Pprune and you don't get me. If I say you're diverging from the topic, it's because you are - and you are diluting the usefulness of this thread. If you want to know about individual airlines' contracts, go to T&E. :hmm:

Scroggs

Lets not forget the accident risks involved!:ooh:


Thats it, im throwing in the towel!

Airline flying is stressful, noisy, boring and subject to incredible pressures from beancounters, schedules, ATC, and the dreaded management.

If it wasn't in my blood i would have given it up. But it is in my blood, I've known all my life this is what I wanted to do. The dream of it is very different to the reality - in many ways worse, but in most ways simply different.

But there's something about the adrenaline rush as you pound down the runway in 150tons of metal, the flush of pleasure as you grease it down after a textbook approach, the feeling of omniscience as you look down on an entire country at night, the crystal clear starry nights, shooting stars, rainbows and bursting from murky overcast into glorious sunshine at 6.00am that stirs you inside like nothing else. And this on a daily basis!

I can live with early dark morning starts, long delays, CBs, windshear, tech problems, premenstrual hosties, psychotic passengers and erratic Spanish ATC because at the end of the day I AM AN AIRLINE PILOT and I've grafted all my life to get there. I may jump ship, but I'm not dumping this career! As long as nobody takes it away from me, I'm not going to give it up myself.

Do I really want to do this job? Hell yes!! And if anyone had told me how bleak the situation was when i started training, I still would have done it. As a wise man said, if the odds are a million to one, there's still a chance. And I'm damn glad I took it. And if you're reading this and wondering whether to go for it - well, go figure!