The not so nice things about being an airline pilot
 

:) Hello Everyone. I'm another person who seeks to become an airline pilot. However, i did not see any harm in asking all the pilots out there for their views. As you can imagine i am very excited at the prospect of being a pilot but i would like to take this opportunity for all pilots to tell me the things that are not so rosy about the job, and things that i should be aware of. Tell me things that are not part of the 'dream' of becoming and airline pilot?

Thanks.

The early starts.

The paperwork

Spanish ATC

To fly or not to fly...?
 

Hiya,

I was wondering if you would take a little time out to consider the question of, if given the option, would you begin a career in the aviation industry as it is today?

I (possibly!) have the option of following in my father's footsteps and training as a pilot... something which brings the response "It's not what it used to be, son... I wouldn't do it myself..." from him. Saying that - the last thing I can do is sit in an office for the next 40 years. I need diversity and constant mental challenges or boredom / disinterest sets in.

Is it all that bad? Let me know if you would consider the £60k-odd investment worthwhile...

Thanks.

Depends what your options are, You could earn more working as a plumber, or in fact most trades will pay as well if not better up to a point. If you want normal working hours and a social life then dont go for flying.

However if you want to fly then do it. I enjoy flying which is why I do it, although in the middle of winter driving to work at 4am I sometimes wonder if its worth it.

Brutally, it boils down to: have you got the flying bug or not? If not, find something else. Banking is good.

Would I do it again? Like a shot. I've loved it. I've seen the world, flown all types from a turboprop to a 747-400, retired, and doing it again, until they call security to carry me off the aeroplane feet first kicking and screaming. But don't expect to find it a goldmine. And the responsibilities you carry could keep you awake at night if you let them.

Reality of the flight deck as a workplace and colleague interaction
 

I've seriously been considering a career as a pilot for some time now and I’m fairly certain that it is what I want to do so I have applied to a number of FTOs. Having read through many threads in pprune and other information sources, some questions still remain to be answered and I would appreciate it if an experienced pilot could take the time to answer them.

Firstly given that there is so much automation on modern airlines, what is working on a flight deck really like? What I fear most is that after a few years of flying, the initial excitement and attraction declines and, apart from take-off and landing, the flight deck becomes a very boring workplace. How much work is actually required during the flight and, if the answer is very little, then what else can the pilots do to keep themselves occupied?

I also wondered about what interaction there is between the pilots and the flight crew. Also what about developing working relationships between colleagues given the fact that (as far as I'm aware) you are never part of a fixed team of people

Keep an eye on:
Where you are
Where you're going
The weather
Where you have to go should it become very quiet all of a sudden
How much fuel you've got
How quickly you're using it
How much fuel you need
How much fuel you might need should 'anything' happen
How much fuel you want to take on the next sector
The weather
How all the systems are performing
How the crew are performing, including yourself
What other aeroplanes are doing, should be doing and aren't doing
Speaking to ATC
ATC speaking to you
Speaking to OPS
Dealing with passengers
The weather
Dealing with technical problems
Dealing with technical problems you've NEVER even seen or heard of before
The weather
What IF?
What IF?
What IF?
Etc..
Etc..
Etc..
Do all that and more and you'll be glad of the automation. And you probably wont get bored. Failing that try this

You don't really need a working relationship with your colleagues, although you will develop one in time, thanks to SOP's and CRM.

I very definitely wouldn't, and I routinely advise 'wannabees' against it...

and do you feel you may be turning off some people who, just maybe, would have enjoyed it as much as people like me? And I know there are many others like me who would do it again, so why not let them decide if it is their calling rather than just try and turn everybody off because you haven't enjoyed it or your career has been ****e?

Fly Better!

Give me a break son.

"You could earn more working as a plumber, or in fact most trades will pay as well if not better up to a point. If you want normal working hours and a social life then dont go for flying."

YOU FLY BECAUSE YOU LIKE FLYING. IF IT'S MONEY YOU'RE INTERESTED IN THEN.....YOU'RE IN THE WRONG JOB.

Rainboe

Kind of right

"Brutally, it boils down to: have you got the flying bug or not? If not, find something else."

"Banking is good" - so very wrong -> longer hours (much longer hours infact).

To all cynical people. . . . oh where's the door?

The daily grind
 

I think what I'm trying to establish is what life is like on a daily basis for a pilot. One of the things I have enjoyed most over the past few years is travelling round the world and seeing new things / meeting new people, which is something I would love to incorporate into a career if at all possible.

But then has it / is it all going the way of minimum rest before the return sector with no opportunity to do anything but study the insides of your eyelids for a while?

Once in the industry, how easy is it to change type within the same company? Do you lose seniority and have to start again from the bottom of the heap?

How often do you feel the need to use this icon in forums; :ugh: ???

Thanks again for your time!

Jimbo.

I NEVER do icons, OK? I find them puerile.

You're not on holiday, you're working. Sometimes the length of stay depends more on schedules than anything. You usually find you're moving on more than you want unless the place is rubbish. A longhaul schedule can be quite arduous and tiring, a shorthaul schedule can be arduous and exhausting- both just as tiring in different ways.
Seniority is kept from when you join. Usually you have the choice when your seniority rises to move. Unless you change employer, you do not lose out.
All you require is here in various places. Use the search function and you will learn all about it! That's yer lot from moi.

It sounds to me like you're looking for a glamour job. Aviation is like that, but only until the novelty wears off. You really have to WANT to fly to be in the industry - it's always been like that and, I'm sure, always will be.

If you're passionate about being out of an earthbound office, try bus or truck driving. Same crappy hours, same crappy pay and same competition from low-cost operators. I don't mean this to sound glib but to get a reaction from you that demonstrates that you really want to fly.

If you don't REALLY want to fly, this industry will chew you up and spit you out in very short order.

Would I do it all over again? Absolutely yes! But the difference is that I truly LOVE everything to do with flying! If you don't have THAT sort of commitment, heed your dad's advice and look for something else.

wannabe a pilot-yes I do!
 

There seem to be a lot of disgruntled pilots on this site and give off a lot of negativity. No the industry may not be what it used to be, but neither is any industry. All companies seem to want to get what they can from their staff and not pay for their services. A relative used to have a very cushy milk round, did approximately 3-6hrs a day and made a decent living from it, the company decided to go franchise and because he had done nothing else and too frightened to do anything else opted to go for the franchise. Over the years the milkman ‘profession’ has declined, consequently, he is doing long hours, not making the money, never has any time off because he will not earn any money, to me that’s a tough job for little or no reward, there isn’t even any job satisfaction for the little reward! Yes you have early starts, long hours, lates then earlies then back to lates blah blah but I bet a lot of people would rather be a pilot than a milkman so know which side your bread is buttered and think about all the people who admire you for the job you do, at the end of the day no matter what profession you are in we will moan about certain aspects, that is human nature, its easier to look on the negative than the positive.

I have set my heart on becoming a pilot as I now work in an office and know that to spend the rest of my working days filing, photocopying, interviewing, disciplinaries, blah blah (need I go on?) would drive me insane. Any job that is worth doing will always be a difficult and competitive market, there will be the more qualified, the ones who can b***s**t a little bit better but etc… I believe if you work hard enough for something and pursue it long enough and if employers can see that commitment then you will get the break that you deserve eventually.

So, wannabes, discover your dream, if in time you decide that it actually isn’t for you then at least you can say you gave it your best shot. Pilots, thanks for the realism advice we appreciate it but do we really want our dreams trodden on before we have even started, life is about learning and making mistakes- you are a long time dead!

Horseshoe

are you flying for the money??
you don't fly for the pay cheque, you fly for the passion. if you have to relocate, then that is a sacrifice that YOU will have to make in order to continue living the dream. sure if you want to stay put, stay in GA but you will live poor for the rest of your days (some exceptions of course).

welcome to the future, this is the way that things are going. regardless, it is disappointing to hear that you have lost the joy in flying. no matter what the pressures, im sure you still feel SOME satisfaction from sitting in the left/right seat of a jet of some sort. so what if you are only getting paid US$100k, that is still bloody good money.

just be happy that your office has views from 35000 feet and that most other people are sitting in a 4x4m cubicle on a pc.

npasque who are you replying to? Your post makes no sense unless we can put it in the context of the discussion you think you're having.

However, as a general point, remember that you fly professionally to earn money. The money you earn should be commensurate with your knowledge and experience, and your value within the industry. Professional pilots do not fly for the love of it; they fly to put a roof over their heads, and food on their family's table. The training (which does not finish at a TR) is long, arduous and expensive, the responsibilities are grave, and the consequences of mistakes can be terminal. That is why no professional pilot should undervalue themselves by accepting a pittance in return for their labour.

Scroggs

go for it.

if u have been for a burn with ur dad u have already had a good taste.

good thing about flying is there is so many different types of it i.e bush pilot, ifr, skiplane, military that if u want to change its no biggy

plus i have seen many mates that have pilot dads who have become pilots themselves and have all the hookups for jobs

goodluck

if you have the choice, if not you accept anything...

Well said Scroggs :D :ok: ;)

Other ways to fly...
 

Now this is what PPRUNE is all about.... a little tetchy at times, but always a great read.

If I'm joining in, I'm a natural wannabe whose chose to follow the alternative route of flying for pleasure rather than work. And I'm not sure this perspective has been covered much.

Yes, I'm like everyone else, my head rises every time I start to hear a buzz or a roar overhead, yes I devour the mags & PPRUNE like everyone else, but I came to a conclusion at 16 years old that to try to become an airline pilot outside of going via the military was total insanity.

My opinion has not changed. Nothing necessarily to do with the job even (you guys are the experts on that...), but it's what it takes to get there. Name me another profession that asks such staggering sacrifices with so few gaurantees??

I chose another career... that of a geologist. Maybe it's because the passions are related, the downsides of the job are not dissimilar. And the rewards too. When I get the rare chance to chat with airline pilots, they get it, they know what I'm talking about.

Recently, I've been wondering in every sense what I get out is worth what I put in to my profession. Pilots, commercial or otherwise, ask themselves the same question too about their vocation. I've concluded I still love the buzz I get from my job.... the views that few others see, the nuts & bolts of how things work, the Big Picture, the mystery of new discoveries.... sound familiar?!?

It will pay me back in time for the broken relationships, the 4am departure lounges, the smiling when I don't feel it, the it's-up-to-you moments....(it better....) Again, sound familiar?!?

To fly is a struggle sometimes, but I HAVE to. I don't care what, but it's a drag I've got to have. Every flying machine can be made to be exciting & can provide a never-ever learning curve. In the end, wings touch air & wheels touch ground.

You can fly like a professional in anything & frankly that's what we should all be aiming for & is a subject that distressingly gets rarely discussed on here in amongst all our rants about paperwork & money & flight schools & the bl££dy CAA....

If you ask me, one of the saddest aspects of the current aviation scene is not so much the lack of communication between wannabes & those doing the job they will sell their skin for but more between Professionals & Amateurs. We all love flying & we can all learn something.

This is why we hang out in spaces like this & we can all contribute to.

Getting back to the original thread, the big question is whether you convert passion to vocation into profession. That's three very different things. It's a bit like fling vs relationship vs marriage I guess. All are possible in aviation.

I still like to think of flying as a continual courtship.

BFA

Has the glamour gone??.....if it has who cares
 

hiya all, Ive been doing alot of resarch on the internet recently, and there seems to be quite alot floating about along the lines of 'being a commercial pilot is a career prospect not worth looking into'. I'd like to know other peoples thoughts of this. I know that being a commercial pilot isn't necessarily what it was say 30 years ago however if I'm honest I can't see myself embarking on any other career. Regards, Jack

Piffal! It's a professional career!

If it's glamour you're after audition for X factor!!:mad:

So...
 

Things I love about flying (and to name but a few) include climbing into the LHS on a cold morning, and turning on the engine, and hearing it get warmer.. The musty smell of old cockpits on the wee Pipers I'm used to flying.. The smell of avgas.. Speeding up on the runway to take off.. Pulling the throttle right back and pretending to the passenger that the engine's just failed :E.. Hearing the stall alarm when landing.. Parking on the runway, stretching me legs and thinking about the great flight I've just had.. Flying at night and seeing the wee white dots below and not being a part of that world.. And the list could go on forever.

So back to the original question Do you really want to do this...??

Hell yeah :cool:

One reason why I would like to fly is the actual atmosphere. I just love that sense of freedom and everyone who has travelled once knows what I mean.

I understand where everyone is coming from here, life is full of highs and lows, but at the end of the day, follow your heart. If flying is your passion, go for it! You'll adapt to the salaries and lifestyles if your career requirements are fulfilled. I can't imagine what can be more satisfying than a flying job!

I've done 9 yrs in the RAF on radars, followed by as many years in IT, gained my PPL and then tried to follow my life time dream of becoming a professional pilot, unfortunately this week that just passed me by, having had success in 13 of the 14 ATPL exams and failing the last one by a mere 4%! I'm looking at being a PPL lifer unless anyone has any great ideas for me? :bored:

Aviation - it's a passion, not a job, fly the dream and enjoy it! I'd happily swap places with deathcruzer or anyone and fly the planes while you fly my office desk at 0ft. Now, go fly.

errm, topcat, can't you just resit the one exam you failed...?:confused:. Seems a bit harsh to give up on it all because of one failed exam...

topcat, if you fail only one . it is good, very good.
some guys fail 4-5-6 exams.
so restudy the feedback questions, and resit the exam.

I would be happy to take your office job, so I can make money!

:ok:

I'm earning just over 47K a year in the RAF as rearcrew. I have a job until 55 - and a Final Salary, Index Linked Pension to boot.

But I am deployed for 5 months every 11 to 12 months in an ageing aircraft which has recently been in the news - sadly for the wrong reasons but civvy aircraft have problems too.

Being regularly mortared is a novel experience too - as aircrew!

And I no longer believe that Politicians or Senior Officers act in the interests of their men: "Warfare lad, not welfare!"

However, looking at some of the other threads it seems that the commercial flying world has its fair share of "leadership issues".

I have my CPL ME SPA IR with ATPL credit Perf A Perf E & instruct too. Now on 624 hours TT.

Four things keep me in the military:
1. Pension.
2. The fear that at 46 I am unlikely to even get an interview offer should I jump ship (I would dearly love to fly cargo TPs - genuinely).
3. Recognition that the commercial aviation industry is "economically fraught".
4. Cameraderie.

So why did I fork out circa 30K for a mix of CAA/JAR qualifications - the love of flying. It is a bl**dy drug!!!

What to do, what to do, what to do............:confused:

Still thinking
 

So take the rose coloured spectacles off and take a good in- depth look at the Industry before you commit a penny. Or you are likely to become another lamb to the slaughter.


I work as a manager at an abattoir, today we slaughtered 600 lambs.

I am seriously thinking about a change in career, with plans to learn to fly at ormond beach then return to UK and continue a flying career.

I am trying to find out the average salary for pilots to work out if i am better off sticking with the slaughtering, or do i follow my dream and learn to fly?

at present the most i could earn in my role is around 40k - what are the chances in this day and age of earning that much?

But at the end of the day its not just about money, which is better, soaring above the clouds, or walking around a windolwess factory with blood on my boots?

I have just spent far too long reading this thread from the start :E.

I am just about to embark on my ATPL training (at Bristol GS and ESMA in Montpelier), having spent the last 7 years as a conductor in the musical theatre industry. My previous experience is limited to 20 hours in a DA20 Katana from an RAF flying scholarship, and about 8 or 9 hours in Bulldogs/Chipmunks as part of the CCF.

Arguably, I am going from one undervalued job to another, but having looked long and hard at the pros/cons of a) both leaving a career in an industry in which I am established, and b) starting training for a new one at the (relatively old) age of 26, I have decided to go for it.

Some while ago some professional pilots mentioned how frustrating it was to be told that "all you do is push buttons and watch the plane fly itself", and in addition how the attitude of their colleagues towards FD visitors / other aviation professionals did not necessarily help.

Although the comparison may be bad, I can draw parallels to this in the theatre industry. The number of times I have been told
that conducting is "just waving your arms around" and that "any Tom, Dick or Harry [to plagarise a phrase ;) ] can play the piano for a show" is beyond counting, and is also immensely frustrating. I am a highly trained professional doing a job that is not particularly easy, and when we have had, as we do on occasion, visitors "sitting in" the pit for a show, their arrogance and naiveté can be astounding.

(Having said that, my job is rarely "safety critical", and I don't have the responsibility of audience's lives in my hands...! :cool: )

There is no doubt at all that being an airline pilot is an incredibly demanding and difficult job that requires a) a massively high level of training, b) enormous financial and personal commitment to even get the qualifications to apply for a job, and, I am sure, c) a certain amount of luck and applying to the right place at the right time. I mean that final point as no disrespect to any professional pilots/FOs, but it holds true for any industry where there are more qualified people than jobs...

So yes, being stuck behind a locked door for 12 or 13 hours a day is something I am willing to tolerate to do what I want to do. It may indeed get wearing, but the 500th time I played "Tell Me It's Not True" in a cramped and frankly quite smelly pit was a bit wearing. Everything, to a greater or lesser extent, becomes at some point "just a job". I never thought that conducting musicals would ever get wearing, but it does.

I am jumping into this with my eyes wide open. I hope to be among "the few" (not meaning to deify flight crews, or indeed go all "Winston Churchill" on you :p ) one day. It may or may not happen for me, but if I don't try I will never forgive myself...

Anyway, my thoughts. They may or may not be relevant.

All the best,

Martin

Short
 

Hi guys!
Let me tell you my story. I was Flight attendt for 5 years, now I'm flying A320 as FO. During thees 5 years I just fell in love even more with airplanes and aviation. Every cent I put aside for my training.:\
My point is, if you love this you'll go every day happy on your job and that is the best thing can happen to you if not...

I couldn't do anything else!!:O

Cheers

flying is fine...its the ****ty hrs that are a killer...im exhausted all the time and getting paid crap wages and dealing with every one that treats you as a risk and eager to yank your license at any moment. welcome to the airlines baby!:eek:

Do you really want to do this....
 

This is the question that I have asked myself many a time.....

Do I really want to borrow a rediculous amount of money with no guarantee of work at the end, work unsociable hours when/if I do get a job, spend the next 9 years in the banks pocket, risk everything I have and give up my very secure and rewarding career which has taken me 3 years to build????

F**k yes!!!!

Why?????

Only if you have a true love of aviation and flying can you understand why. As previosuly said, Flying is a drug and I'm well hooked I'm afraid.

Becoming a commercial pilot is my ultimate career and I won't stop until I get into that RHS. However don't confuse this for blind optomism! I've worked out and meticulously planned everything including a number of contingencies should anythign go tits up.

In my book as long as you plan for a bumpy ride to your first FO position then I can't see any reason why not!

Chris :)

Chris,

I completely agree. Flying gets to you. True, it's not "true flying" in the sense that throwing a PA28 or whatever around the sky is but I'd still much prefer it to a proper office job!

As Chris said, no guarantee, and maybe I will end up in that office anyway. If so, shall throw the PA28 around all the more :}

But surely after you have been flying for umpteen years your passion for flying has gone, it's just a job, a job that you enjoy sometimes?

Do I have a passion for flying? I don't know, if it means I will fly for any kind of money or for any kind of company then no, I don't have a passion. But I can't think of another job that I would enjoy as much as being a pilot. I love the responsibility that my warrior gives me when I am in the circuit with other planes and on the commercial side, it is at the forefront of technology, heavily focussed on people and the world around us.


The prospect of losing my staff travel at 24 is also a consideration :}

This is one of those threads that takes on a life of its own. I started flying in 1966 and did the airline thing from 1969. I set the brakes on July 30th 2004 in a B737NG and never looked back. Until, well this is where the story for me got me into the "why should I" mode.

Pres. Bush signs into law that you can now fly in the US to age 65. I used to do the ex-pat thing, why not do it again? Didn't I love the 1649 Connie, the B707 and the WW11 guys that taught me how to fly them? Wasn't Indonesia, SE Asia, ME a blast. Oh yeah it did start to get weird around 1987 but by that time I had been a Capt for several years at a rock and roll 121 operation. Flying the B727 with the HUD, transitioning to the B737NG with a stint on the B737-200 for good measure.

As I watched my airline go from a nothing outfit to a golden child in a matter of months was fun. The upgrades came fast and furious, pay raises, new equipment and then we got famous. We were now high priced workers with mgt types cursing that this would be a great business if it just weren't for these pilots and F/A's.

While it did not happen to me I watched as my peers lost their retirements, wages slashed, down grades (harder to go backwards) chapter 11's, Frank Lorenzo's coming out of the wood work. Was not unusual to have a new FE who had come from brand X because of its demise. Oh yeah he or she saw that Toro lawn machine and the patio furniture go down the drive way in the wrong direction. Sure glad I did not take that job with United.

The fact is that you will pay a very high price for the "love of flying". Ask your wife (if you still have one), how do your children fit in with this love of flying deal anyway? By the grace of God I still have great love and affection for my kids and it is the same for them. Guess what--it all got better when I quite flying.

Now I know that you can lead a horse or is it you can't make a silk purse, oh well you know what I mean. When I was younger I could not have been talked out of flying for anything. It was a quest, a journey, a whatever and God help those in my way. Well I flew for 7 airlines and have more type ratings than I need. When I retired I thought I was done with all of it but NO. I thought I had one more hurrah in me.

Started to look into ex-pat stuff overseas. What the hell the kids were grown and it would be fun to learn about another country again. This is what I found. Lots and lots of places need DEC so much that they are working them stupid. 6 days on and 1 day off. My God why would anyone do that to themselves. The answer is I would have and in a heart beat. When I as young and real driven I would have jumped at it. However I no longer have the interest and I might add the stamina to pull it off at 63 Yrs old. The reality is I cant learn much with one day off and chances are I would be tired of it very quickly and on my way home.

For those of you who love to fly, don't do the airline deal. With the automated format of all new airplanes you will finess the auto pilot (that is how they want to fly it, even more so in 3rd world countries) more often than not.

Now the question is would I do it again? Probably as I have a habit of repeating questionable behavior. Flying was what I did it was not what I was. Having said that I did enjoy the chaos of it all. Oh well, time for my nap.





:ugh:

Like I've said so many times before it all comes down to personal feelings and how much you're willing to risk and sacrafice to get to where you want to be.

Arguably there are many careers which pay the same or better and are 9-5 monday - friday etc. As mentioned in a couple of my other posts...I'm working 8.30 - 5.30 Monday - Friday as an accountant at the mo. I even quite like my job but it's not flying so it's not for me long term.

I've literally just booked my flights to Moncton and it's such a good sense of achievement knowing that the hard work and headaches to get to this point have paid off at last! Although the real hard work is just beginning I'm still a pretty happy chappy right now!!

:) :) :) :)

Great thread, its good to hear different stories, As you all have buckets of experience i wondered if i could grab some opinions.

At 18 years old i chose to join the Royal Navy as a Pilot having achieved ACC at A levels. Sadly after passing militerisation i failed my flight grading. This was a 13 hour couse with an exam at the end where i had to

-Book out
-STTO
-turns acel/decel
-stalls
-spins
-3 piece areo
-2 circuits with glide landing

I could do all of these manouvres by the time my hours were up, however i struggled to put it all in to a smooth routine for the test, i would be forgetting parts of checks or flying at 110kts instead of 100 for example as i was a working to capacity and would make odd mistakes.

Having failed I decided the course was a touch hard and fast and i wasn't a bad pilot, i just needed more hours, so i decided to go it alone, i left the Navy and have just started my PPL at Wycombe with the goal of getting to QFI and later making the jump to airlines.

But life story aside heres where i need some advice. Trying to convince people outside aviation i want to be a pilot when i have just failed a grading makes them stare at me as if im insane. My parents seem subtley upset that i have lost the uniform and think im just flying for the hell of it and am wasting money. Every time i go up im working so hard to get it right i dont get a kick out of it like i think i should, its dam hard work and when i get down im knackered and relieved! The only thing that keeps me going is that as soon as i leave the building i just want to get straight back up there tommorow, and i stop caring about anything else.

In your opinion do you think that sounds like the right motivation to commit myself to this? Has anyone else felt the same way and made it? Or should
I just admit defeat and go to uni like everybody else and get a normal job that pays average and i can just about enjoy? :uhoh: