How to transfer your JAA licence from one member state to another
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Spain
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How to transfer your JAA licence from one member state to another
Dear collegues...
Modern European aviation has been unified under JAA, right? It is possible for a student to do his training in any JAA member state, right? At the end you get the same JAA licence right?.....Wel now it seems that not all JAA licences are created equal. For example if you do your training in Spain and you are a Dutch national it is logical that upon finishing your training you want to return to Holland. Now comes the good part. According to the JAR–FCL 1.070 Normal residency:
"Normal residency means the place where a
person usually lives for at least 185 days in each
calendar year because of personal and occupational
ties or, in the case of a person with no occupational
ties, because of personal ties which show close
links between that person and the place where she
or he is living."
JAR–FCL 1.065 State of licence issue:
"(a) An applicant shall demonstrate the
satisfactory completion of all requirements for
licence issue to the Authority of the State under
whose Authority the training and testing for the
licence were carried out. Following licence issue,
this State shall thereafter be referred to as the ‘State
of licence issue’ (see JAR–FCL 1.010(c)).
(b) Further ratings may be obtained under
JAR–FCL requirements in any JAA Member State
and [U]will be entered into the licence by the State of
licence issue.[U]
(c) For administrative convenience, e.g.
revalidation, the licence holder may subsequently
transfer a licence issued by the State of licence
issue to another JAA Member State, provided that
employment or normal residency is established in
that State (see JAR–FCL 1.070). That State would
thereafter become the State of licence issue and
would assume the responsibility for licence issue
referred to in (a) above. An applicant shall hold
only one JAR–FCL licence (aeroplane) at any time."
If you train in Spain you get a Spanish JAA Licence , Spain becomes the 'State of licence issue'. Now when you get hired in Holland and have to do a type rating is where things start getting pear shaped. If let's say the TRTO has Dutch CAA TRTO certificate, it means that the Spanish DGAC (CAA) have not given any approval or authorization for this course. But they as the State of issue have to write the initial type rating annotation on your licence...This will be hell, because the Dutch and Spanish CAAs have different requirements and rules. The certificates you get from the Dutch TRTO, while completely accepted by the Dutch, are not directly recognised or accepted by the Spanish....Now, now, now, you would say, but aren't they all JAA ? What is all the fuzz about? It's about the fundamental difference between the European JARs (Joint AviationRequirements ) and the American FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations ). One are Requirements the other are Regulations. The FARs are exactly the same for all 50 American States. The JARs on the other hand not. There is the base JAR we all know and is published by the JAA then there are the versions that have been written into law in the various JAA member states. These are modified versions that more conveniently(not to pilots) adapt to local conditions and can differ significantly from what we consider to be JAA. So not all JARs are created equal!
Another option would be to change your state of licence issue. But again this is easier said than done. In the endless caos of any local CAA office, they never seem to know what the procedure is to change this. If you ask 10 different persons you will get 10 different answers. Sometimes if you ask the same person on different days the same question you will also get different answers. And never ever will you get anybody to commit to anything on paper. Last I heard is that in order to change your state of licence issue you needed many documents and it would take about 2 months. Ironic is that in these 2 months you would be without any licence, since it must be handed over to the authorities to process the change...2 months in which you cannot fly! What company would put up with this. The inefficiency of the public system is unacceptable. The word "Joint" in the JAA should mean just that. They should recognise each others licenses and ratings more easily without so many stupid rules. It is supposed to get easier under the JAA, not harder!
Modern European aviation has been unified under JAA, right? It is possible for a student to do his training in any JAA member state, right? At the end you get the same JAA licence right?.....Wel now it seems that not all JAA licences are created equal. For example if you do your training in Spain and you are a Dutch national it is logical that upon finishing your training you want to return to Holland. Now comes the good part. According to the JAR–FCL 1.070 Normal residency:
"Normal residency means the place where a
person usually lives for at least 185 days in each
calendar year because of personal and occupational
ties or, in the case of a person with no occupational
ties, because of personal ties which show close
links between that person and the place where she
or he is living."
JAR–FCL 1.065 State of licence issue:
"(a) An applicant shall demonstrate the
satisfactory completion of all requirements for
licence issue to the Authority of the State under
whose Authority the training and testing for the
licence were carried out. Following licence issue,
this State shall thereafter be referred to as the ‘State
of licence issue’ (see JAR–FCL 1.010(c)).
(b) Further ratings may be obtained under
JAR–FCL requirements in any JAA Member State
and [U]will be entered into the licence by the State of
licence issue.[U]
(c) For administrative convenience, e.g.
revalidation, the licence holder may subsequently
transfer a licence issued by the State of licence
issue to another JAA Member State, provided that
employment or normal residency is established in
that State (see JAR–FCL 1.070). That State would
thereafter become the State of licence issue and
would assume the responsibility for licence issue
referred to in (a) above. An applicant shall hold
only one JAR–FCL licence (aeroplane) at any time."
If you train in Spain you get a Spanish JAA Licence , Spain becomes the 'State of licence issue'. Now when you get hired in Holland and have to do a type rating is where things start getting pear shaped. If let's say the TRTO has Dutch CAA TRTO certificate, it means that the Spanish DGAC (CAA) have not given any approval or authorization for this course. But they as the State of issue have to write the initial type rating annotation on your licence...This will be hell, because the Dutch and Spanish CAAs have different requirements and rules. The certificates you get from the Dutch TRTO, while completely accepted by the Dutch, are not directly recognised or accepted by the Spanish....Now, now, now, you would say, but aren't they all JAA ? What is all the fuzz about? It's about the fundamental difference between the European JARs (Joint AviationRequirements ) and the American FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations ). One are Requirements the other are Regulations. The FARs are exactly the same for all 50 American States. The JARs on the other hand not. There is the base JAR we all know and is published by the JAA then there are the versions that have been written into law in the various JAA member states. These are modified versions that more conveniently(not to pilots) adapt to local conditions and can differ significantly from what we consider to be JAA. So not all JARs are created equal!
Another option would be to change your state of licence issue. But again this is easier said than done. In the endless caos of any local CAA office, they never seem to know what the procedure is to change this. If you ask 10 different persons you will get 10 different answers. Sometimes if you ask the same person on different days the same question you will also get different answers. And never ever will you get anybody to commit to anything on paper. Last I heard is that in order to change your state of licence issue you needed many documents and it would take about 2 months. Ironic is that in these 2 months you would be without any licence, since it must be handed over to the authorities to process the change...2 months in which you cannot fly! What company would put up with this. The inefficiency of the public system is unacceptable. The word "Joint" in the JAA should mean just that. They should recognise each others licenses and ratings more easily without so many stupid rules. It is supposed to get easier under the JAA, not harder!
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: earth
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well you do have a point,
But it’s not all true.....
a friend of mine with Swedish CAA licenses got his type rating from BAE in England. Swedish CAA did not have any problems with this at all.
I don’t know maybe Sweden and England have a agreement or something.... but I think it works out at the end of the day. All it takes is lost of phone calls to the respective CAA. oh yes and don’t forget lost of money too
But it’s not all true.....
a friend of mine with Swedish CAA licenses got his type rating from BAE in England. Swedish CAA did not have any problems with this at all.
I don’t know maybe Sweden and England have a agreement or something.... but I think it works out at the end of the day. All it takes is lost of phone calls to the respective CAA. oh yes and don’t forget lost of money too
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Spain
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Point well taken.
But shouldn't it be automatic, the recognition of an FTO or TRTO from one member state by another member state's Civil aviation authority? Without the need of any mutual agreements? Since all FTO's are certified according to JARs and all CAAs are also runned according to the JARs. So what is the problem of these CAAs? Why must they also aprove a course that has already been approved by another member JAA abiding CAA?
But shouldn't it be automatic, the recognition of an FTO or TRTO from one member state by another member state's Civil aviation authority? Without the need of any mutual agreements? Since all FTO's are certified according to JARs and all CAAs are also runned according to the JARs. So what is the problem of these CAAs? Why must they also aprove a course that has already been approved by another member JAA abiding CAA?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Mostly Western hemisphere
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The thing is that the national CAAs still have a few degrees of freedom to play with. JAA can't force anyone to "copy-paste" the JARs (in it's purest form) into the national regulations and throw away everything that was in use so far. Well, they do encourage everybody to do it this way of course ("Standards, folks, standards !"), but that's the limit of the current system.
Once EASA will be in place, it seems that the national CAAs will become quite like the FSDOs in the States: just a counter doing the paperwork and following the guidelines drawn in a galaxy far far away.
Unfortunately, by judging the contents and the speed at which the monthly gatherings of all the "heads" of all the JAR CAAs are going, they're not in hurry to give up their last privileges (if you can call that privileges), even though there's clearly no doubt the EASA will not leave them out of job. They spend more time talking about "what should we do about those folks who are NOT YET in the JAA-system ? Should we invite them to our monthly party ? How are we going to spend all that money ?", than talking about "what should we do to improve the system for the folks who ARE in the JAA-system ?"...
Once EASA will be in place, it seems that the national CAAs will become quite like the FSDOs in the States: just a counter doing the paperwork and following the guidelines drawn in a galaxy far far away.
Unfortunately, by judging the contents and the speed at which the monthly gatherings of all the "heads" of all the JAR CAAs are going, they're not in hurry to give up their last privileges (if you can call that privileges), even though there's clearly no doubt the EASA will not leave them out of job. They spend more time talking about "what should we do about those folks who are NOT YET in the JAA-system ? Should we invite them to our monthly party ? How are we going to spend all that money ?", than talking about "what should we do to improve the system for the folks who ARE in the JAA-system ?"...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North of CDG
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I recently asked to have my CAA-issued JAR-FCL frozen ATPL/IR "validated" by the French CAA (incidentally also called the DGAC). Even paid them a visit for that, and ended up talking to the Head of the Licensing Dept. (without an appointment, amazing!).
Basically, it's only a paperwork exercise, with no fee (!), and only requiring to fill in a form and provide them with copies of all the required licences/ratings, copies of the last page of your logbook, your radio licence, Class I medical etc. No need to send the real thing, therefore I can continue to fly in Britain (or as a private pilot in France for instance) in the meantime. Straightforward? Well it seemed to be at the time, but three months down the line, still no news from the DGAC...
Basically, it's only a paperwork exercise, with no fee (!), and only requiring to fill in a form and provide them with copies of all the required licences/ratings, copies of the last page of your logbook, your radio licence, Class I medical etc. No need to send the real thing, therefore I can continue to fly in Britain (or as a private pilot in France for instance) in the meantime. Straightforward? Well it seemed to be at the time, but three months down the line, still no news from the DGAC...
