Cap 509
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Actually CAP 509 is just a book (Civil Aviation Publication #509) - but it became a generic term to name the course of training that the book was all about.
Well - it's dead.
It used to be what is now known as "integrated training" - where wannabes (with zero flight experience) would wander off to residential pilot school and go from zero to airline job in 13 months of intensive training.
The course was geared specifically to put pilots directly into the right hand seat of an airliner - straight from school - and it worked.
Some years ago, the American think tank set out to survey all the training regimes in the World to see which one was best. The UK CAP 509 course was the winner (even over their own FAA Part 141 course) - so a trial was adopted to see if it would work for the FAA too - hence the birth of Western Michigan University Aviation Department.
As they say in the press, "The trial continues"
Well - it's dead.
It used to be what is now known as "integrated training" - where wannabes (with zero flight experience) would wander off to residential pilot school and go from zero to airline job in 13 months of intensive training.
The course was geared specifically to put pilots directly into the right hand seat of an airliner - straight from school - and it worked.
Some years ago, the American think tank set out to survey all the training regimes in the World to see which one was best. The UK CAP 509 course was the winner (even over their own FAA Part 141 course) - so a trial was adopted to see if it would work for the FAA too - hence the birth of Western Michigan University Aviation Department.
As they say in the press, "The trial continues"
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Well the courses are still there - but now called "Integrated Course" (rather than modular course).
Some airlines, I believe, are still doing the deal. They hire the "right kind of student" and ship him/her off to pilot school. They are often referred to as "Direct Entry Cadets",
The courses are run by the humongous - and humongously expensive - mega schools like Oxford, BAe (Jerez) etc.......but there is little or no work anymore for the guys who fall out of then end of the course with a licence.
Some airlines, I believe, are still doing the deal. They hire the "right kind of student" and ship him/her off to pilot school. They are often referred to as "Direct Entry Cadets",
The courses are run by the humongous - and humongously expensive - mega schools like Oxford, BAe (Jerez) etc.......but there is little or no work anymore for the guys who fall out of then end of the course with a licence.
CAP 509 is long dead and buried. You could say that the Integrated JAA ATPL course is its replacement.
CAP 509 was far far superior. Its standards and structure were much better and it was a sad day when the UK lost it to the JAA.
WWW
CAP 509 was far far superior. Its standards and structure were much better and it was a sad day when the UK lost it to the JAA.
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WWW I would not say that the former CAP509 course was far superior to a JAA integrated course.
I could agree that SPIC flights are a bit a waste of time as opposed to mutual sorties, that CAP 509 instructors had to be formally trained and eventually examined by the CAA as opposed to their JAA colleagues.
However when it comes to the product (i.e the sudents) the quality has hardly anything to do with the school/ training format etc..
At the end of the day, the average Joe Bloggs coming out of an integrated course or CAP509 is a bit out of his depth when he's got to do a SID other than the two he's done zillions of times at his base school, when it comes to land in serious crosswinds, when it comes to fly on his own without an instructor or a fellow student holding his hand when the weather is a bit dark and blowy, when he's got to perform an approach down to minima all on his own etc...
I have nothing against low hours pilots. As an ex- flying instructor in one of these so called "leading schools", I had the privilege to fly with outstanding students (mostly sponsored cadets but not always). Their performances had hardly anything to do with the school or syllabus or my teaching. They were gifted in the first place. Unfortunately this is a small minority.
For the rest of the crowd, they just got their ticket and whether it was from OATS,BAe,CABAIR,SFT or god knows where, it did not matter. If they just attended the course without having an inquisitive mind and a bit of curiosity, the result was poor.
As an air taxi pilot flying with some of them (whether ex CAP509 or JAA integrated course), I am appalled (but not surprised) at the lack of operational knowledge they display. Very few can file a flight plan correctly, give an ETA or transform litres of avgas in kg or pounds from the top of their, sometimes, big heads.
As for the CAP509 instructors, I heard one or two of my very experienced colleagues teaching stupid things, just because they were applying recipes without thinking a single nanosecond.
Here an example of what I'm getting at:
At the school I used to teach in, students were told to check 60 degrees before the inbound track in an NDB hold that the ADF on the RMI was indicating the inbound radial, the ADF having about 10 degrees of dip. Fine.
The problem is they were also told to do exactly the same thing in a base turn or race track procedure which could have been 8 miles away from the beacon!!!! A bit of basic trigonometry or common sense would have been nice on this occasion. Don't you think so?
I could bore you with many other examples like this one.
So, please, spare me the standard bull**** and all the rest.The UK "training standards" did not lose out. Things are just carrying on the same way. Dear, dear...
I could agree that SPIC flights are a bit a waste of time as opposed to mutual sorties, that CAP 509 instructors had to be formally trained and eventually examined by the CAA as opposed to their JAA colleagues.
However when it comes to the product (i.e the sudents) the quality has hardly anything to do with the school/ training format etc..
At the end of the day, the average Joe Bloggs coming out of an integrated course or CAP509 is a bit out of his depth when he's got to do a SID other than the two he's done zillions of times at his base school, when it comes to land in serious crosswinds, when it comes to fly on his own without an instructor or a fellow student holding his hand when the weather is a bit dark and blowy, when he's got to perform an approach down to minima all on his own etc...
I have nothing against low hours pilots. As an ex- flying instructor in one of these so called "leading schools", I had the privilege to fly with outstanding students (mostly sponsored cadets but not always). Their performances had hardly anything to do with the school or syllabus or my teaching. They were gifted in the first place. Unfortunately this is a small minority.
For the rest of the crowd, they just got their ticket and whether it was from OATS,BAe,CABAIR,SFT or god knows where, it did not matter. If they just attended the course without having an inquisitive mind and a bit of curiosity, the result was poor.
As an air taxi pilot flying with some of them (whether ex CAP509 or JAA integrated course), I am appalled (but not surprised) at the lack of operational knowledge they display. Very few can file a flight plan correctly, give an ETA or transform litres of avgas in kg or pounds from the top of their, sometimes, big heads.
As for the CAP509 instructors, I heard one or two of my very experienced colleagues teaching stupid things, just because they were applying recipes without thinking a single nanosecond.
Here an example of what I'm getting at:
At the school I used to teach in, students were told to check 60 degrees before the inbound track in an NDB hold that the ADF on the RMI was indicating the inbound radial, the ADF having about 10 degrees of dip. Fine.
The problem is they were also told to do exactly the same thing in a base turn or race track procedure which could have been 8 miles away from the beacon!!!! A bit of basic trigonometry or common sense would have been nice on this occasion. Don't you think so?
I could bore you with many other examples like this one.
So, please, spare me the standard bull**** and all the rest.The UK "training standards" did not lose out. Things are just carrying on the same way. Dear, dear...
Last edited by Leo45; 19th May 2003 at 00:44.
Leo45. Well I disagree.
SPIC is a TOTAL waste of time. Do you think instructors actually sit there and do absolutely nothing unless they are about to fly into a mountain? Even if they did do nothing then their mere presence onboard detracts totally from the character building merit of solo flight. You just DON'T get scared if there is an instructor on board pretending not to be there.
_______________
For those who don't know Student Pilot In Command is a JAA invention. A student flies the aircraft with an instructor on board. The instructors only role is to avert crashing into mountains etc. Under the old system SOLO time meant just that. Under JAA a lot of "solo" time is actually SPIC and logged as such.
_______________
Hell you can do a whole JAA CPL IR course without ever once flying a twin solo. How the heck does that compare to CAP509 when you sent 2 students off together to go and beacon bash their way around the UK for hours on end.
You raise the point of instructor standards. They were much higher under CAP509. Under the JAA all a school has to do is take any old instructor up for a few hours and half heartedly log some often spurious groundschool hours with him/her. They then sign off their own instructors and thats it. As you well know under CAP509 the CAA themselves assessed and passed/failed candidate 509 instructors. They were vigourous and demanding in their assessment and this resulted in only quite good instructors gaining the coveted 509 status.
Then there was the myriad other CAP509 requirements that people hardly ever saw. Like maximum class sizes and ratios of floorspace to seats in classrooms approved for CAP509 groundschool.
CAP509 was a comprehensive scheme designed by the major FTO's, the CAA and airlines working together. It had rigorous standards that cost money.
JAA by comparison has been decided by committee has minimal standards applied and still costs money.
WWW
SPIC is a TOTAL waste of time. Do you think instructors actually sit there and do absolutely nothing unless they are about to fly into a mountain? Even if they did do nothing then their mere presence onboard detracts totally from the character building merit of solo flight. You just DON'T get scared if there is an instructor on board pretending not to be there.
_______________
For those who don't know Student Pilot In Command is a JAA invention. A student flies the aircraft with an instructor on board. The instructors only role is to avert crashing into mountains etc. Under the old system SOLO time meant just that. Under JAA a lot of "solo" time is actually SPIC and logged as such.
_______________
Hell you can do a whole JAA CPL IR course without ever once flying a twin solo. How the heck does that compare to CAP509 when you sent 2 students off together to go and beacon bash their way around the UK for hours on end.
You raise the point of instructor standards. They were much higher under CAP509. Under the JAA all a school has to do is take any old instructor up for a few hours and half heartedly log some often spurious groundschool hours with him/her. They then sign off their own instructors and thats it. As you well know under CAP509 the CAA themselves assessed and passed/failed candidate 509 instructors. They were vigourous and demanding in their assessment and this resulted in only quite good instructors gaining the coveted 509 status.
Then there was the myriad other CAP509 requirements that people hardly ever saw. Like maximum class sizes and ratios of floorspace to seats in classrooms approved for CAP509 groundschool.
CAP509 was a comprehensive scheme designed by the major FTO's, the CAA and airlines working together. It had rigorous standards that cost money.
JAA by comparison has been decided by committee has minimal standards applied and still costs money.
WWW
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WWW have you read my thread or what?
I think we both agree on SPIC and CAP509 instructors training requirements and assessment.
Having said that, the end products of a CAP509 course or a JAA integrated course in the UK are not that different. They both leave much to be desired unless some screening process is in place. That was my main point !
As for CAP509 instructors, I am sorry, not all of them were good just because they had passed the CAA assessment, but I agree, at least there was some sort of selection as opposed to none.
I think we both agree on SPIC and CAP509 instructors training requirements and assessment.
Having said that, the end products of a CAP509 course or a JAA integrated course in the UK are not that different. They both leave much to be desired unless some screening process is in place. That was my main point !
As for CAP509 instructors, I am sorry, not all of them were good just because they had passed the CAA assessment, but I agree, at least there was some sort of selection as opposed to none.
Last edited by Leo45; 19th May 2003 at 06:28.
Leo45. You have not flown with a representative sample of 509 grads or JAA Integrated grads and neither have I. Therefore we cannot with any accuracy comment on the output of either system.
What we can do is examine the rigors, demands and standards of the two regimes. When we do so it is impossible to conclude elsewise that CAP509 was miles in front.
WWW
What we can do is examine the rigors, demands and standards of the two regimes. When we do so it is impossible to conclude elsewise that CAP509 was miles in front.
WWW
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Ahhh, the CAP 509. Haven't heard that in a while. I was on one of the last CAP 509 courses before the JAA or JAR courses started. All I know was that apparantly the JAR licence exams were a lot harder when it first started. Don't know about now. Mind you, the CAP 509 course exams were not a walk in the park either. Whatever the case, at the end of the day you need that all important CPL IR and frozen ATPL for the jobs.
