Do airlines care which school you go to?
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Do airlines care which school you go to?
Just wondering.... Do recruiting airlines judge an applicant on which school they've done their training at?
For example, if you said on your application that you had trained for your fATPL at ,say, CCAT or OAT, are you any more likely to get an interview/job than someone who trained at a smaller, less well known school, or don't they mind, so long as it was an approved course? (I'm on about before they've met you or given you any tests or anything).
Also, when I was at the Flight Training Show at Heathrow earlier in April, the guy from BA that did the seminar on what they look for when they recruit pilots said that certain flying schools are able to recommend you to BA (if you're good enough!), but he wouldn't say which ones. I had a sore throat and completely lost my voice whilst I was there (just my luck!), so I couldn't ask the flying schools if they could recommend to BA. I'm guessing Cabair and Oxford do it (didn't they run the old BA cadet schemes?); does anyone know of any others?
For example, if you said on your application that you had trained for your fATPL at ,say, CCAT or OAT, are you any more likely to get an interview/job than someone who trained at a smaller, less well known school, or don't they mind, so long as it was an approved course? (I'm on about before they've met you or given you any tests or anything).
Also, when I was at the Flight Training Show at Heathrow earlier in April, the guy from BA that did the seminar on what they look for when they recruit pilots said that certain flying schools are able to recommend you to BA (if you're good enough!), but he wouldn't say which ones. I had a sore throat and completely lost my voice whilst I was there (just my luck!), so I couldn't ask the flying schools if they could recommend to BA. I'm guessing Cabair and Oxford do it (didn't they run the old BA cadet schemes?); does anyone know of any others?
Last edited by dannyweaver; 29th Apr 2003 at 21:19.
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Personally I don't believe they do, at least not as a main selection criteria. The schools on the other hand would almost certainly have you believe this, but I doubt if anybody could provide definitive proof in this respect in the present market conditions.
It may be used as a factor to decide between two applicants who have similar experience, have demonstrated similar levels of competency in a sim check and given equally good interviews. But, by the same token, so could the place you were born, your school, university or any one of a hundred different factors.
Best thing you can do is concentrate on getting above average grades in both flight tests and groundschool, a good report from your FTO, keep current to as high a standard as poss, demonstrate a well-rounded background outside of aviation and knock em dead at interview.
Remember, an exceptional candidate is still exceptional regardless of who trained them.
It may be used as a factor to decide between two applicants who have similar experience, have demonstrated similar levels of competency in a sim check and given equally good interviews. But, by the same token, so could the place you were born, your school, university or any one of a hundred different factors.
Best thing you can do is concentrate on getting above average grades in both flight tests and groundschool, a good report from your FTO, keep current to as high a standard as poss, demonstrate a well-rounded background outside of aviation and knock em dead at interview.
Remember, an exceptional candidate is still exceptional regardless of who trained them.
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As a general point, I believe that people will feel comfortable with people of a similar background. So if you are up against a panel, the majority of whom came through the sponsorship system, then they are going to be more interested in candidates from a similar system - probably integrated in this day an age. Given, that the known big names will add more familiarity; Oxford and BAe will be a good bet.
Pilots who came up the hard way (and there are more and more these days) will be most impressed by the self-improvers, the oldies, the can-do and made it happen types regardless of school or background.
Obviously this is such a gross generalisation but I cannot escape from the conclusion that if you are Oxford or BAe integrated then you have an advantage. If not regardless of integrated, modular or school then be prepared to go that extra mile.
This does not mean that Oxford/BAe students are generally better able, just generally better positioned. As a self-improver, I do not welcome this realisation.
Pilots who came up the hard way (and there are more and more these days) will be most impressed by the self-improvers, the oldies, the can-do and made it happen types regardless of school or background.
Obviously this is such a gross generalisation but I cannot escape from the conclusion that if you are Oxford or BAe integrated then you have an advantage. If not regardless of integrated, modular or school then be prepared to go that extra mile.
This does not mean that Oxford/BAe students are generally better able, just generally better positioned. As a self-improver, I do not welcome this realisation.
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I'm inclined to agree that people from the better-known schools may have a tiny edge in interviews in the ways that HWD and Witchdoctor have mentioned. However, I suggest that the financial benefit that could be accrued by attending a smaller and cheaper school might be worth a little more in the grand scale of things! Add to that the life experience cv-fillers that can be gotten by doing bits of flying/training in exotic parts of the world, and I personally feel that the self-improving modular student might just be better off.
Just MHO!
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CC
Just MHO!
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CC
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I am currently at BAe in Jerez.
Just two months ago GB Airways popped its head around the door and ask HT if he had any pilots for them. So, the top 3 lads CVs were handed over and they are now in the process of TR for the 73NG.
So it does happen, but not as often as I would like!!!
Just two months ago GB Airways popped its head around the door and ask HT if he had any pilots for them. So, the top 3 lads CVs were handed over and they are now in the process of TR for the 73NG.
So it does happen, but not as often as I would like!!!
Just as counterbalance. I know of at least half a dozen small operators that will not touch someone from the top 3 FTO's because of bad experiences in the past when the world was CAP509 or self improver. Its an unfair world. I also know several flying schools that only ever hire instructors who have trained with them so by going down the OATS/BAE/CABAIR route you exclude yourself from some high turnover flying school instructional posts.
That said, when GB or the likes do pick up the phone, its very nice to be in the right place at the right time. Bit like buying lottery tickets every week though - expensive and very long odds.
Choose yout training based on your needs, your stregths and your budget. Forget about employability post graduation as there are so many variables its all down to luck.
Good luck,
WWW
That said, when GB or the likes do pick up the phone, its very nice to be in the right place at the right time. Bit like buying lottery tickets every week though - expensive and very long odds.
Choose yout training based on your needs, your stregths and your budget. Forget about employability post graduation as there are so many variables its all down to luck.
Good luck,
WWW
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BFC, at Bristol own an air taxi / exec outfit called Centreline (9 x PA34, 4 x PA31, 1 x Caravan, and one BE200. They certainly crew most of their contracts and ad-hocs from people who trained with them.
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I believe that it is an advantage to have gone to the big schools and if I had my time again I would have gone. However having seen Cap509ers in GA I understand why some GA operators don't like them as there training is too structured and they tend not to be flexiable enough.
Thank you aircharterservice. Thats exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.
The chances of you getting an airline job straight out of training are always long and now they are out of sight.
Whereas there is always a bit of movement further down the food chain for various reasons. The BEST strategy at the moment would be to pitch up at somewhere like BFS and excel. Pass everything first time. Arrive early leave late and help your coursemates. Make the tea. Laugh at the CFI's jokes and buy your instructor beer.
Become known as a switched on all round good chap.
You then have a very effective IN to a small charter outfit. Offer to ride as safety pilot/bag carrier etc. Fast forward 2 years and you've got 1000hrs Twin IFR experience under your belt and a few war stories.
Just the thing many old hands around these parts have been telling you is so valuable.
Suddenly the airlines will stop laughing at you. Suddenly you old instructor will by now be in airline BigShinyJet and he can put words on ears. Or use their Recommend A Pilot scheme.
Whammo - hello - a proper airline interview invitation. And all because you sowed the seeds a couple of years ago by targetting a FTO which did other things and you always had one eye on those other things.
Its worked for a lot of people in the past.
But they don't give out brochures at fancy London flying conferences.
WWW
The chances of you getting an airline job straight out of training are always long and now they are out of sight.
Whereas there is always a bit of movement further down the food chain for various reasons. The BEST strategy at the moment would be to pitch up at somewhere like BFS and excel. Pass everything first time. Arrive early leave late and help your coursemates. Make the tea. Laugh at the CFI's jokes and buy your instructor beer.
Become known as a switched on all round good chap.
You then have a very effective IN to a small charter outfit. Offer to ride as safety pilot/bag carrier etc. Fast forward 2 years and you've got 1000hrs Twin IFR experience under your belt and a few war stories.
Just the thing many old hands around these parts have been telling you is so valuable.
Suddenly the airlines will stop laughing at you. Suddenly you old instructor will by now be in airline BigShinyJet and he can put words on ears. Or use their Recommend A Pilot scheme.
Whammo - hello - a proper airline interview invitation. And all because you sowed the seeds a couple of years ago by targetting a FTO which did other things and you always had one eye on those other things.
Its worked for a lot of people in the past.
But they don't give out brochures at fancy London flying conferences.
WWW
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African Drunk,
That's a bit of a mass generalisation about CAP509ers in GA. Witchdoctor has already pointed out that a good guy is a good guy wherever trained. There are 509ers who are just as good in GA as any self improver, just like there are plenty of self improvers who make excellent airline pilots.................
Pick the training regime that suits you best. Some need the spoon fed integrated, full time environment. Others like the flexibility of self improver, doing what they want when they want. Plenty of considerations need to be taken into account when deciding where to go. Cost being one of the biggest. It is unfortunate that whatever route you choose you end up restricting your options afterwards in some way, as WWW has pointed out, but again, it works both ways and everyone ends up with a restriction on who they can apply to and be accepted by.
PP
That's a bit of a mass generalisation about CAP509ers in GA. Witchdoctor has already pointed out that a good guy is a good guy wherever trained. There are 509ers who are just as good in GA as any self improver, just like there are plenty of self improvers who make excellent airline pilots.................
Pick the training regime that suits you best. Some need the spoon fed integrated, full time environment. Others like the flexibility of self improver, doing what they want when they want. Plenty of considerations need to be taken into account when deciding where to go. Cost being one of the biggest. It is unfortunate that whatever route you choose you end up restricting your options afterwards in some way, as WWW has pointed out, but again, it works both ways and everyone ends up with a restriction on who they can apply to and be accepted by.
PP
Last edited by Pilot Pete; 15th May 2003 at 05:42.
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Bear in mind also that a lot of small charter operators dont plan on being small charter operators for ever, a C406 operator in STN and a Bandit operator in SEN a few years ago are now fliteline and Titan (who have just got a 757 I believe). Both Airmed and Centreline have a caravan or 2, Centreline have a Kingair, 5 years from now who knows what you could be flying for them.
Some airlines actively recruit from specific air taxi operators, jumping in a Seneca, single crew, borderline minimas and flying to a snowbound airport in Scandinavia at MTOW would scare the £$$% out of many shiny jet jockey.
Some airlines actively recruit from specific air taxi operators, jumping in a Seneca, single crew, borderline minimas and flying to a snowbound airport in Scandinavia at MTOW would scare the £$$% out of many shiny jet jockey.
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Some airlines actively recruit from specific air taxi operators, jumping in a Seneca, single crew, borderline minimas and flying to a snowbound airport in Scandinavia at MTOW would scare the £$$% out of many shiny jet jockey.
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Ok, Choosing words carefully High Wing. Once in an airline job and away from the grass routes flying, it would be outside most longer toothed flyers current view of commercial flying and would be advantageous to have this experience.
Brain hurts now!!!
Oh, and no I am not Martin, but I hear he will be recruiting very shortly from....ahem......sources unknown....ahem
Brain hurts now!!!
Oh, and no I am not Martin, but I hear he will be recruiting very shortly from....ahem......sources unknown....ahem
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Scroggs,
I was told my a member of the interview panel for your airline that they did care,
3 - points for being an ex-crab
2 - points for a 509er from a big school
1 - point for a self improver
but then by the time pilots apply for your airline they will have 1000s of hours , and he didn't say how many other points there were.
I was told my a member of the interview panel for your airline that they did care,
3 - points for being an ex-crab
2 - points for a 509er from a big school
1 - point for a self improver
but then by the time pilots apply for your airline they will have 1000s of hours , and he didn't say how many other points there were.
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Scroggs
There are still airlines out there who will only take applicants with under 1000hrs if they are 509ers. This shows that someone in those airlines must care. Also the school seems to be important to organisations that can get you into airlines such as CTC and Gecat.
Pilot Pete accept that was generalisation but it is mt belief training is too structured and not enough true solo time ie spic.
There are still airlines out there who will only take applicants with under 1000hrs if they are 509ers. This shows that someone in those airlines must care. Also the school seems to be important to organisations that can get you into airlines such as CTC and Gecat.
Pilot Pete accept that was generalisation but it is mt belief training is too structured and not enough true solo time ie spic.
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African Drunk,
Again, I take your point, but I think your view is a little flawed, if I may be so bold?
I did a CAP509 upgrade course back in 1998/1999 and left with a grand total of 36hrs twin time in a Seneca. I was in the right place at the right time and managed to get a job flying air taxi for a company I had had no previous contact with. Within a month and a half of starting with that company I as signed off on Cessna 310/402 and 404, the owner and Chief Pilot commenting I was just as good as any FI he had ever taken on (he had always previously only ever taken 700+ hr FIs for jobs). Now I was no star, just your average Joe, and many of my peers at OATS were every bit as competent as me. So, with around 300hrs TT I was flying single crew with 9 pax into EGLL in a 404. It was fantastic and to be totally honest I don't think I would have been any more competent flying a big piston twin after another 500hrs in a single, but there you go. What I do know is that when I had 700hrs TT I was a lot more competent than your average FI (no offence to the FIs, just that I'd now gained 500hrs on various piston twins, in all weathers IFR, into big and small airfields throughout northern Europe and the UK.)
So opinions need to based around facts to have any value and I'm not trying to argue, just to point out a fact that contradicts the opinion.
Sadly the route I took is closed off to Wannabes with low hours now and they require 700hrs minimum to fly air taxi single crew under JAR, so it could be that in a roundabout way you are correct in that the air taxi operators don't like low hours guys now, but mainly because they are no use to them as they are unemployable.
PP
Again, I take your point, but I think your view is a little flawed, if I may be so bold?
I did a CAP509 upgrade course back in 1998/1999 and left with a grand total of 36hrs twin time in a Seneca. I was in the right place at the right time and managed to get a job flying air taxi for a company I had had no previous contact with. Within a month and a half of starting with that company I as signed off on Cessna 310/402 and 404, the owner and Chief Pilot commenting I was just as good as any FI he had ever taken on (he had always previously only ever taken 700+ hr FIs for jobs). Now I was no star, just your average Joe, and many of my peers at OATS were every bit as competent as me. So, with around 300hrs TT I was flying single crew with 9 pax into EGLL in a 404. It was fantastic and to be totally honest I don't think I would have been any more competent flying a big piston twin after another 500hrs in a single, but there you go. What I do know is that when I had 700hrs TT I was a lot more competent than your average FI (no offence to the FIs, just that I'd now gained 500hrs on various piston twins, in all weathers IFR, into big and small airfields throughout northern Europe and the UK.)
So opinions need to based around facts to have any value and I'm not trying to argue, just to point out a fact that contradicts the opinion.
Sadly the route I took is closed off to Wannabes with low hours now and they require 700hrs minimum to fly air taxi single crew under JAR, so it could be that in a roundabout way you are correct in that the air taxi operators don't like low hours guys now, but mainly because they are no use to them as they are unemployable.
PP